Chapter 06

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

Q: COULD YOU TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR ROUTINE OVER HERE?

A: Coming to India, I have not started my work yet, otherwise it was too much for twenty-four hours to contain. Before it starts again, there is in fact no routine.

I am sleeping from seven in the evening to eight in the morning, then taking my bath. At nine visitors come just to see me. That is one of the conditions of Span that I cannot hold meetings here, so they just stand on the gate and I go and receive them. And for half an hour I go around just for a walk. Nine-thirty to eleven is given to news media, because from all over the world people are coming, so it is for their interviews. Eleven I take my lunch, and eleven-thirty I go back to sleep. At three I wake up. Three to three-thirty is for photographers, and just a walk around the ground, and then again an interview with the press.

Five to six I listen to some classical music. Six I take my supper, and seven I go to sleep again. So it is not much of a routine, mostly I am sleeping.

Q: BUT YOU HAD STOPPED GIVING INTERVIEWS IN THE LAST FIFTEEN DAYS. I BELIEVE WE ARE VERY LUCKY TO HAVE GOT AN INTERVIEW TODAY.

A: Yes, for fifteen days I had to stop, because everywhere is so much ugliness.

All over the world we talk about freedom of thinking and freedom of expression, but nowhere it is allowed. As I landed in Delhi after America, I gave my first press conference. In that press conference I have not said anything about any religion because it was not the context. Still from far away Bengal a summons has come I have hurt their religious feelings, so I have to appear before the court in January. Second summons have come and third we are informed is coming. So my people thought that it will be better before we establish...

In America I had five thousand people's commune.

Four hundred were legal experts. We had the biggest legal firm in the whole world. They were taking care of all the cases which I was creating. Right now we don't have even a single legal person, so they suggested that for ten, fifteen days I should wait. Our legal persons are coming, and then they can take care of all these cases. These are harassment cases and it is very easy to put a case against anybody that you have hurt my religious feeling...

In fact it is such a stupid and silly thing that courts allow it. For example, I have said in one interview that I will not consider Rama of a great spiritual height, because whatever he has done is almost inhuman.

First s son of a Brahmin dies in Ayodhya...

And the Brahmin comes to Rama and says that there must be happening some great sin, otherwise the son of a Brahmin cannot die before his father. So a great search.... thousand mile away it has been found that a sudra -- an untouchable -- has heard few Brahmins reading Vedas, hiding behind trees. That was the great sin, thousand miles away from Ayodhya, that the Brahmin's son has died. The sudra was caught, and Manu Smrati(*) provides only one punishment: that melted lead, absolute fire, should be poured into both his ears. And that's what Rama did. I cannot conceive Rama even human. To talk of him as incarnation of God is simply nonsense. Now I have said this, those who follow Rama, their religious feelings are hurt. My own understanding is that if their religious feelings are hurt, they should be hurt by the act of Rama, not my statement. I have not done anything, I have simply repeated what is written in their scriptures. I have not written them.

Q: BUT DO YOU THINK THERE IS A CONCERTED MOVEMENT TO HARASS YOU?

A: Certainly.

Q: WELL, WHO WOULD YOU SAY WOULD BE BEHIND THIS MOVEMENT?

A: American government.

Q: THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT -- EVEN HERE IN INDIA?

A: Even here.

Q: APART FROM THIS CASE, IS THERE ANY OTHER CASE IN WHICH YOU HAVE BEEN SUMMONED?

A: Yes, three other summons have come. And from very reliable sources the information that more summons will be coming to harass me: one from Madras, one from...

Q: I SEE, FROM DIFFERENT PLACE...

A: From different places, so I have to appear.

And meaningless.... they cannot win these cases because I am not saying anything on my own. I am simply making a statement which is in their scripture.

If their religious feeling is hurt, they should drop Rama. And if their religious feeling is not hurt even by destroying the ears of a poor man, I don't think their religious they have any religious feelings at all, that they can be hurt by my statement. So I am, I have been fighting these cases my whole life. Not in a single case they have won...

But harassment certainly is there.

Q: BUT WHY SHOULD THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT BE SO INTERESTED IN HARASSING YOU? NOW? HERE IN INDIA?

A: Yes, they are interested in for many reasons. One is they destroyed the commune in America...

Out of great jealousy. The commune has come to such a standard of living that it was higher that the American standard of living, that they think is the best in the world. We have changed a desert into an oasis. Five thousand people for four and a half years managed to do everything without any support from outside.

We made our roads, we made our houses, we cultivated vegetables, food, fruits.

We made lakes, because it was a desert, there was no water. And it was almost a miracle. And news media started coming to Rajneeshpuram -- that how could we manage, we don't have any power, the government is continuously harassing us.

There was one hundred twenty cases by the government in which they were being defeated on each single case, but they were going on finding new....

Destroying the commune in America.... Now they don't want that I can create a similar commune anywhere, for the simple reason because that commune will prove what they have destroyed. Now they have a desert again. Now there is no proof, only in the memories of those five thousand people who had lived there, and in the memories of the news media who had been coming there.

I invited the president, the governor and other officials and politicians just to come and be our guest and see what is happening. They never came.

Now their whole effort is that this should not happen anywhere, for two reasons.

One, that if it happens again then there will be a proof that they have done something immensely ugly. And the whole America feels it.

People have been phoning, and crying on the phone -- non-sannyasins, Americans who don't know us -- and saying that "This is the ugliest thing that American government has done ever, because you have not done any harm, and they have destroyed a whole city which you had made with so much labor."

Our people were working twelve to fourteen hours a day, and we had made such a beautiful place. That may have been the only city which was centrally air- conditioned. We made the desert green, we made birds to come, swans, peacocks. When I had reached there, there was not a single bird. What bird will do? -- because there was no water. We made all kinds of trees grow.

The second thing that they were afraid was is more important which was: we created a better quality of communism than exists anywhere in the world, either in China or in Soviet Russia. And by very simple means. In Russia they have created through a very dictatorial regime, forcing people, and they killed almost one million people after revolution; and then too if freedom is given again, the communism will disappear, because there is something intrinsically wrong in Marxian understanding.

Man is not equal. You cannot make another Albert Einstein and you cannot create another Karl Marx. People are unique. So the whole idea of equality and inequality is baseless. You cannot compare two unique beings. You don't compare a man with a chair. It is stupid -- they are simply different. People are different, so they should be given equal opportunity to be different, but they should not be forced to be equal -- which is against human nature, against human psychology.

So what they have not been able to accomplish in seventy years in Soviet Russia, we accomplished in four years by a simple thing: we simply stopped using money in the commune. Inside the commune no money can be used. You can donate to the commune, but you cannot purchase anything by money in the commune.

Q: SO HOW DID IT FUNCTION?

A: Whatever you need, the commune will provide, and our needs are not much.

And if we go intelligently... for example, for five thousand people we have only one kitchen, one dining hall. Rather than having two thousand, five hundred kitchens and engaging twenty-five hundred women, their whole life into kitchens and wasting their life there and then getting angry and then becoming a pain in the neck, then torturing the children, torturing the husband, and always ready to fight.

We changed the whole system, and the result was tremendous benefit economically: twenty-five hundred kitchens are reduced into one. And all women are not good cooks. In fact all good cooks are men; not a single book on the science of cookery has been written by a woman, they are all written by men.

And in all the best hotels, the best cooks are men, not women.

So we had chosen the best cooks. Why give food to people when you can manage better, more scientific, more hygienic food for all? So we had better food, more food. There was not a single beggar, there was nobody unemployed because there was no question of employment. Everybody was working because it was their commune, and they had to make it as beautiful as possible. In four years'

time not a single crime, no rape, no murder, no suicide, no theft. There was no need -- when you can get everything that you want, why you should steal somebody's used things? There was no need.

Q: HERE CAN I INTERRUPT YOU?

A: Just a moment. This created an idea all over America that communism is not necessarily connected with the dictatorship of the proletariat; in fact it is not connected with government at all. We had no government; we were just loving each other and we found that what works better, we should do it.

And the question was being raised against the politicians, that if these people can do it by such a simple means -- because there was nobody poor. You may not have a single dollar, and I may have millions of dollars, but I am not rich as far as commune is concerned; we are in the same boat. I cannot use those million dollars, so in no way I am rich than you. We destroyed poverty and richness without even touching the rich or raising the cry of war, of class struggle, of violence.

They became immensely afraid of the phenomenon. They have destroyed there -- absolutely illegally, because they had no legal reason. Now they don't want me to establish another commune anywhere.

What they did as I was released by the court -- they had to release me because I have not done anything -- they immediately did the first thing in Germany because in Germany I have six communes running on the same principles, so they were afraid that I may go to Germany, and may make a big commune, bigger than existed in America, because six communes are already in existence.

And West Germany is just under their pressure, under their domination. They immediately passed a law that I cannot enter Germany.

This is such nonsense! I have never entered Germany, I have never committed any crime in Germany. Just in anticipation, in case I enter Germany they make a law. In fact there was no need to make a law; you could simply have refused a visa. But they may have been afraid: perhaps some ambassador may be influenced with me and may give a visa. It is better to make it clear-cut law that I cannot enter Germany; otherwise I will be immediately arrested.

And what reasons they have given? -- because I am a dangerous man and I have a great number of followers who love me so totally that they can do anything for me and we don't want to take any such risk.

The same was the reason given in America that they don't want to give me a bail.

Not that I have committed any crime, that I am a dangerous man. And they can see the connection clearly, that I am a dangerous man, that I have immense financial resources, that I have millions of friends around the world who love me so much that they can do anything; that no bail can prevent me. If you give me bail I will leave America.

So they were not ready to give bail. And the same reasons are shown in German parliament that I should not be allowed to enter Germany. Here I have been informed by very intimate sources to the government that first they don't want any foreigners to be here, so anybody who wants to be here cannot get a visa.

The people who had come with me, they gave only a standing ticket for three weeks and they will not extend it into visa. It is against their policy; their policy is to increase as much tourism as possible. And through me they can increase their tourism to thousands.

In America every year at least fifty thousand people were coming from all over the world, so to cut all the foreigners from me who are accustomed to do my work -- printing, editing, filming, making houses, making roads. In these four years we have trained all kinds of skills. So those people particularly who have been in American commune should not be allowed. And that's what they have been doing; they are not allowing them.

Left alone to myself I cannot create a commune. With Indians it is very difficult to create that kind of thing.

Q: SO THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER RAJNEESHPURAM?

A: It will be, I am finding a way, because I am already invited by two governments.

Q: CAN YOU NAME THEM?

A: Not yet, because...

Q: WESTERN GOVERNMENTS?

A: Western governments, two governments who are not pro-American have already invited me, that they are absolutely ready to accept my people and give land on their own, all support. An injustice has been done to me.

Q: BUT ARE THEY EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS, OR OTHER WESTERN GOVERNMENTS?

A: They are South American governments.

Q: WHAT ABOUT YOUR PLANS FOR THIS PLACE? YOU ARE ALREADY BECOMING QUITE AN ATTRACTION HERE, AND AS YOU HAD SAID ON TELEVISION ALSO THAT SUPPOSE THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT WERE TO COOPERATE WITH YOU...

A: Indian government is not cooperating. Himachal people are very cooperative, very loving.

Q: WE BELIEVE YOU HAVE RECEIVED OFFERS OF LAND DONATIONS FROM FAR AND WIDE.

A: Yes, many, not one, many people have come to donate their own land -- people who have never known me before. Punjats and their heads have come to offer, the Bar Association of Mandi has come to invite me to be here and to tell me that if there is any legal problem they will be available to me without any fees or any burden on us. And other corporations in Mandi, in Kulu, in Manali -- they have approached; individuals have approached... many.

But the problem is: the land alone is not enough. What I will do with the land?

Q: BUT HERE THERE'S ANOTHER THING: WHY IS THE GOVERNMENT SO HOSTILE TO YOU... I MEAN, ANY GOVERNMENT ANYWHERE THEY ARE ALWAYS VERY HOSTILE.

A: The same reasons. For example, Indian government would not like just because of me to create any antagonism with America, particularly for the reasons that they have been begging them for nuclear plants to be made here, and only America and Russia have... (lights go out).

The Indian government or any government who is in need of any American support can bargain very easily. And it is a simple thing for them; my commune or me or my idea does not matter to them; what matters is nuclear energy. And America can give them plutonium. So that is a pressure on them.

Indian government has not been helpful anyway. One month I have been waiting; my people have been approaching -- they have not shown any interest of any kind. In fact they have shown it clearly that they are not interested.

While I was in jail in America Indian government did not took any step to ask American government that, "You are holding a person in jail without arrest warrant without even saying him what crime he has committed. That is absolutely illegal! You are punishing a person before you have proved that he is guilty." And they tortured me for twelve days. And when I was released the Indian ambassador phoned that, "Do you need any help from us?"

I said, "This is absolutely stupid. Where you have been for twelve days? And the whole America is agog with only one news -- all the television channels, all the newspapers, all the radios -- and you have been fast asleep! And when I am released, what help you can give me?"

Q: IS IT TRUE THAT YOU HAD SAID THAT YOU ARE NO LONGER BHAGWAN?

A: No, I have never said that.

Q: IT HAS APPEARED EVERYWHERE.

A: It is absolutely wrong.

Q: YOU AR STILL VERY MUCH THE SAME PERSON YOU WERE?

A: Yes, I am still the same person.

Q: IT'S NOT THAT YOU DISBANDED YOUR COMMUNE?

A: No. I have...

Q: WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE FOUR THOUSAND PEOPLE OR SO WHO WERE LIVING IN RAJNEESHPURAM? I MEAN, THEY CANNOT BE ACCOMMODATED HERE... OR ARE THEY BEING ACCOMMODATED IN YOUR COMMUNES ALL OVER THE WORLD?

A: They are being accommodated in other communes, or they are making small groups and arranging themselves and waiting if I can manage somewhere, then they will be immediately coming.

Any statement that said that I have said that I am not Bhagwan is absolutely wrong.

Q: WHAT ABOUT THOSE MANY PEOPLE -- HUNDREDS COME TO YOU HERE FOR DARSHAN AT THIS RESORT: HAVE YOU GOT ANY PROGRAM FOR THEM? -- BECAUSE THEY ARE COMING TO YOU WITH A NEED.

A: I know, they are coming, but my conditions of staying here are such that I will not be even talking to any gatherings, any meetings, so I cannot talk to them. But they are happy enough just to see me safe. They can see me, they can cry, they can weep and they can hold my hand -- and they are happy.

This condition will not last. We are searching all over the world, but this time we are being very much clear about any conditions that may arise later on. So first we are trying to find an island which is independent, which belongs to no government; and we have located two islands which are tremendously beautiful, and which are not for sale.

Q: WHICH PART OF THE WORLD?

A: One is in Europe and one is near Canada.

Q: IN THE MEDITERRANEAN?

A: In the Mediterranean.

Q: AND CANADA?

A: Just near Canada.

Q: TOWARDS THE PACIFIC SIDE OR THE ATLANTIC?

A: Yes, east side....

So my first preference is going to be an island which can be under no pressure of any government. Second, these countries which have invited -- I am sending my people to see what places they can offer and what kind of help on what conditions. And we have our own conditions because we will be bringing five thousand people; then you should not create that visas cannot be given and people cannot stay long. So we have to manage. But within a month I will have the place. And this time it is going to be far bigger than it was in America. It was five thousand; this time it will be fifty thousand, not less than that, because I never go backwards -- that is not my idea.

Q: AND IT WILL BE ON THE SAME LINES AS THE ONE IN OREGON?

A: It will be on the same lines...

Q: ONLY BIGGER?

A:... only bigger.

Q: AND BETTER, PERHAPS?

A: And better, certainly, because we have all the intelligent people in the world, because my way of thinking is such that only very educated, very intelligent people can be interested in it. So we have engineers, doctors, scientists, Nobel prize winners...

Q: WHICH NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS?

A: One economist from England, I don't know the name because we change the name so we don't know their real name, what their real name is.

Q: WHAT'S HIS NAME NOW; DO YOU RECALL THAT?

A: No -- because I have one million sannyasins around the world!

Q: I SEE. DO YOU PERSONALLY GIVE THEM A NAME?

A: I was giving up to Poona; now it becomes difficult.

Q: IT MUST HAVE BECOME VERY BIG NOW.

A: Now it is too difficult, so many people are giving who are old sannyasins.

Q: SO CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS OPEN UNIVERSITY AND WHAT EDUCATION MEANS TO YOU?

A: First: education means to me a man with a balanced growth -- of body, mind, heart and soul. So up to now there has never been any education which is total. It is at the most a training of the mind, at the cost of the body, at the cost of the heart, and finally at the cost of the man's innermost being.

This education has proved dangerous. It creates only clerks; it cannot create anything else because it diverts all the energy into those three "r's". I am not against it, they should be absorbed, but they should have their proportion.

Physically, much can be done which is neglected. For example, no education system bothers about exercises or about food. For example, vegetarian food. For thousand of years in India the Jainas and the Brahmins and all high caste people have been vegetarians, but they have not produced any geniuses; they have not received a single Nobel prize. The three Indians who received Nobel prize were all non-vegetarians.

The vegetarian food as it has been up to now, lacks something, some proteins which help the intelligence to grow. So if we depend on vegetarian food then those proteins have to be added. If you don't add those proteins then you are killing the person's intelligent growth.

So in my commune what I have done... we were using non-fertilized eggs, because non-fertilized eggs are just vegetable because they don't have any life; and they have all the proteins that are needed by a mind, intellect, intelligence.

So now, because I used the eggs, Jainas are against me; just the word "egg" is enough to make them against, they will not think twice what I am saying. And the non-vegetarians are also against because their only argument is finished.

Their only argument for non-vegetarian food was that it is the only food that can help intelligence to grow; vegetarian food will keep you vegetables! So they are angry because I have now found something -- that meat is not necessary, not only necessary but in fact, ugly.

And in total perspective of education, a man who eats meat, fish or anything living will not grow into his heart. His heart will remain insensitive. If just for eating you can kill, then your heart will remain a stone.

Q: BUT AREN'T PLANTS ALSO ALIVE?

A: They are alive... they are alive, and if one is really to be a vegetarian then one should eat the fruits which are ripe and fall from the trees; then you are not killing anybody. And the crops, wheat or rice, which are ripe -- you are not killing anybody. Plants should be respected just as we respect people.

In my garden nobody can pluck a flower for the simple reason because that shows the beauty of the flower but ugliness of you. You are destroying it, you are taking it away from its life's source, and you are showing a certain kind of insensitivity. Then what is the difference between a cannibal.... In fact cannibals say that the most delicious food is human children.

If you are for delicious food, if that is the goal of life then the whole humanity should be cannibalistic. And they may be right, that small children's meat may be the most delicious thing -- about that all cannibals are agreed, there is no disagreement. But when we can manage without hurting, then in a right kind of education we should help the person to become sensitive also.

Q: THIS IS WHAT YOU PLAN TO HAVE ON YOUR ISLAND?

A: Certainly. We had a university even in America.

Q: IN RAJNEESHPURAM?

A: In Rajneeshpuram; and now we will be having on a wider scale.

Q: BUT HAS THERE BEEN ANY RESPONSE TO YOUR OFFER FOR A UNIVERSITY THAT YOU HAD MADE ON TELEVISION?

A: No, no response.

Q: BUT HOW WOULD THIS THING BE HELPFUL TO THE GOVERNMENT AND TO THE INDIAN NATION IN GENERAL? BY MAKING BETTER PEOPLE?

A: It will not be helpful to the government.

It will be helpful to the people but it will not be helpful to the politicians.

Q: WHY DO YOU SAY THAT?

A: Because these people who are sensitive and intelligent will not choose these idiots as politicians. Not a single politician in the whole history has proved a genius, they have all proved third grade. People like Adolf Hitler were rejected from art institutions, he was rejected from architecture institutions, because he was not capable so the entrance examination he failed. But he became a world hero; he had almost conquered the world. These people will not be helped, if the people are most sensitive and more intelligent, and their growth is balanced.

For example I was talking about their sensitivity. They will be more loving; no government wants people to be more loving.

Q: WHAT ABOUT PANDIT NEHRU?

A: Pandit Nehru was not a politician -- and that's why he failed. He was more a poet. He would have been more fitting with Rabindranath Tagore than with Mahatma Gandhi. He was a sensitive soul and he has an intelligent approach towards history and human evolution. And he was never convinced about Mahatma Gandhi and his primitive ideology of going back to the spinning wheel. But one thing he could see -- that Gandhi can influence the whole nation, and without Gandhi, this nation is impossible to take it into the struggle for freedom.

He followed Gandhi but he was never a Gandhian.

Q: BUT WASN'T THAT BEING A PRACTICAL POLITICIAN? TO TOE THE LINE OF GANDHI AND KEEP YOUR OWN IDEAS AT THE SAME TIME?

A: It was simply a deceptive thing, I will not call it practical politician.

Q: AND WHAT ABOUT OUR PRESENT PRIME MINISTER, RAJIV GANDHI?

HOW DO YOU RATE HIM?

A: There is not yet time enough to say anything about him. It takes a little time to show the person, his reality; and particularly a person who is a non-politician, when he comes into politics he is very nice to everything, to everybody. Just give him time and let power corrupt him.

Q: YOU MEAN THAT WILL BE THE TEST?

A: That will be the test, that is the only test. If power does not corrupt a person then only he has some authentic being; otherwise power corrupts.

It can corrupt anybody because power is such a thing, that for example, I have received information from the central government highest sources -- they have a file on me, and in the file they say right now the government is watching; they are neither positive nor negative. All will depend how I behave.

What it can mean "how I behave"? I will behave the way I have always behaved.

Q: YOU WILL NOT CHANGE TO PLEASE THEM?

A: No! I am not going to change to please ANYBODY; I will simply behave the way I feel right.

Q: DON'T YOU THINK ALL THESE EXPERIENCES HAVE BROUGHT ABOUT ANY CHANGE IN YOUR PERSONAL CHARACTER?

A: No... no, they have made me more stronger and more convinced about my truth.

Q: WHY DO YOU EVOKE SUCH EXTREME REACTIONS IN PEOPLE? -- EITHER THEY ARE READY TO KILL FOR YOU OR THEY ARE READY TO KILL YOU?

A: Yes, that is true. It always happens if you are saying something without considering the people, just saying because you see it in that way and you feel that it is truth. And I am ready to argue for it; I have been arguing my whole life.

Then only two possibilities exist: if you are intelligent you understand the argument. And if you are not intelligent then you feel irritated because that argument disturbs you, your settled dogma, your creed, your religion. So to me it is a criterion of truth, that it will always divide people in two: either they will be all for you or they will be all against you, but it will not leave a single person who is indifferent.

Q: HAS POWER CORRUPTED YOU?

A: I don't have any power.

Q: BUT YOU HAVE; YOU WIELD TREMENDOUS POWER WITH YOUR FOLLOWERS AT LEAST. IT HAS BROUGHT NO CHANGE IN YOU?

A: It has not brought any change in me because I don't consider it a power.

Q: IT'S A WAY OF LOOKING AT THINGS?

A: Yes. I simply love my people, and my people love me.

Q: EVEN LOVE HAS A LOT OF POWER.

A: Love has a totally different power. It is not the power of the gun. It is not the power of nuclear weapons; it is not the power of harming anybody. It is the power of helping someone.

People love me not because I have any power -- I am not a president of any country or a prime minister or a king or.... I am nobody, I don't possess a single thing. Even my robe and everything -- they belong to my people. They make them for me, I don't possess them. I have not purchased anything for thirty years.

Even my watch you see is made by my own people. And it is not diamonds; these are just poor stones.

Q: SO YOU HAD ALL THESE NEWSPAPERS WRITING ABOUT DIAMOND- STUDDED WATCHES, AND REAL GOLD CADILLACS!

A: Yes, that's how I check how much intelligence the press people have.

Q: TALKING OF LOVE AND THE WAY YOU TALK ABOUT LOVE OVER HERE, DO YOU HAVE A SPECIAL AFFINITY FOR THE SUFI SAINT POETS LIKE VARDISHAH, BABA FREE, OR GURU NANAK?

A: I have... I have certainly. Anybody who has attained to a state of silence, light, blissfulness and who has been able to shower all these qualities in his own way on other peoples -- I have love for all of them. It does not matter whether they are Mohammedans or Hindus or Christians or Buddhists; to me what matters is whether the man has attained to his innermost core, has he reached to his innermost centre?

Q: BUT THEN DIDN'T GANDHI ALSO ASPIRE TO THE SAME THING?

A: No, Gandhi was a simple politician. Gandhi was a simple political figure. He talked about religion, he lived like a religious man, he tried to create a a synthesis between Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, but the whole idea behind it was that the country remains undivided. And an undivided country means a Hindu India.

Gandhi calls GITA his mother, but he never calls KORAN his father. He should have remembered it; otherwise his mother will be a widow.

I mean that Gandhi is talking every day morning, evening, to his disciples about GITA, and anybody can see that GITA is a pure philosophy of violence. And you can see that man, Gandhi, is talking of non-violence. But to keep Hindus under him he is raising GITA to the highest, holiest scripture in the world. Otherwise anybody can see that GITA and Mahatma Gandhi are contradictory. Gandhi has no argument; he has never given any argument what about Krishna who is continuously trying in the whole GITA for Arjuna to fight, to kill? because this is your religion and this is God's will -- you have to do it.

Q: DO YOU AGREE WITH THE GITA AND ITS PHILOSOPHY?

A: No! If I had been in place of Arjuna I would have told Krishna clearly that, "Who are you to decide God's will? I can hear my own heart and I feel God's will is that I should go to the Himalayas and meditate. I don't want to fight. Why should I listen to you? Why should I have a mediator between God and me? I can listen to my own heart."

Q: BUT ISN'T KRISHNA SUPPOSED TO BE GOD HIMSELF?

A: But that is himself he is saying -- so anybody can say. This is as stupid as....

One man went into a restaurant and told his friends that, "My wife is the most beautiful woman in the world." And somebody asked, "But how can you say that?" He said, "I can say because my wife herself has said it!" It is so stupid Krishna saying himself that, "I am God" -- it is simply stupid; there is no point in it, anybody can say.

Gandhi was asked by Louis Fisher who has written his biography that "When India becomes independent, what will happen about the armies and all the armaments -- because in your conception they don't have any place."

And Gandhi said, "Yes, they don't have any place. We will throw them into the ocean, and we will send all soldiers to work in the fields."

And when Independence came he forgot all about it; not only that, when Pakistan attacked India, three airplanes who were going to attack Pakistan flew over Birla House to get his blessings, and he came out of the house and blessed the three airplanes who are going to bomb Pakistan. Now what happened?

Q: THIS WAS IN THE TIME WHEN PAKISTAN WAS GOING TO ATTACK KASHMIR, JUST AFTER?

A: Yes, just after. So this man was asked by Louis Fisher that, "If somebody attacks you, what you will do?" Gandhi said, "We will come out and we will say, 'We are here -- if you want to kill us you can kill us; if you want to live with us, you can live with us.'" It is so easy to talk -- but that time it was useful because it gave a great aura of saintliness but when the reality came in his hands, then all things changed; then he was not the same man.

He was absolutely a cunning politician, and in fact as far as I am concerned -- and I have looked into his life as deeply as anyone can -- his eldest son, Haridas Gandhi, became a Mohammedan. That was such a shock to him that he told his wife that, "I don't want to see the face of Haridas again."

Now, this is strange! If Mohammedans and Hindus and Christians are all the same, then what does it matter that Haridas has become a Mohammedan? If he feels better with Mohammedan approach, Gandhi should bless him! But Gandhi cannot bless his because the Hindu politics -- the Hindu will get angry, annoyed....

He made it a will that Haridas should not be allowed to put fire when he dies into his funeral. Haridas was there, crying, weeping, in the crowd, but he was not allowed to put fire as the eldest son.

And why he had become Mohammedan? -- just to show to the world.... He has written letters to friends that it was just to show to the world that what Gandhi says is all hypocrisy. When he changed his name he told the maulvi that, "Make it exactly of the same meaning as 'Haridas'." So he gave him the name "Abdullah Gandhi". Abdullah means Haridas: God's servant.

And why he was doing it? -- because Gandhi has tortured him very badly. He wanted to study and Gandhi was against this whole education so he will not send him to school. And he revolted against it and he went to one of his uncles to live with, and passed matriculation and came to get the blessing; but Gandhi closed the door on his face and told him that, "You are dead for me."

This is not the approach of a non-violent, loving man.

Q: COULD YOU NOW EXPLAIN: WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY 'SANNYAS'?

WHAT IS THE CONCEPT?

A: Is your open university finished? -- because that is your main thing. First, the word 'university' itself comes from 'universal'. it means open; it cannot be closed.

For example, no university can call itself Hindu university; that is contradiction in terms. No university can call itself Mohammedan university; it is a contradiction in terms. A university has to be open, available to all.

And my idea of openness is multi-dimensional. For example, right now I have been a teacher in the university. Two years are wasted for a small course that can be finished in two months. The whole six years which make you a master can easily be finished in one year. It is one of the capacity of human mind, that the greatest challenge you give to it, the more powerful and more intense it comes.

Our whole education is lazy. I was surprised because I was expelled from many colleges when I was a student for the simple reason that I told to the professor of philosophy that, "Whatever you are teaching can be finished within six months; there is no need for six years." And he was so annoyed by it he took me to the principal. And I told to the principal that, "I can accept the challenge -- because this man had his master's degree thirty years before and all that he is teaching is all bullshit because it is no more relevant. In thirty years philosophy has gone so far that he does not know even the names of the latest philosophers; he has not read a single book. And he is teaching us something which is already out of date.

I can teach within six months, six-years course."

The principal said, "Perhaps you are right -- this is my feeling also, being a principal for many years -- that our education system is really very lazy. It simply goes on and on; and finally, even when you become a master, what kind of mastery you have got?

Q: NO, BUT WHAT SORT OF SYSTEM DOES YOUR UNIVERSITY HAVE?

A: My university will have... first: drop all that is non-essential -- and there is ninety percent non-essential which is being unnecessarily fed up into people's mind. Now, what is the need of Tamerlane, Nardishah, Alexander the Great? In what way they make you more human? In what way they give you the pride of being human? They are being taught -- but not Farid, not Nanak, not Buddha.

No.

Q: BUT HOW SOON DO YOU THINK YOU WILL BE ABLE TO ESTABLISH THIS SORT OF A UNIVERSITY?

A: Once my commune is there there is no problem because I have professors, I have all kinds of people.

Q: SO IN ONE MONTH, TWO MONTHS?

A: Just as I get the land -- if I decide for an island immediately it starts working.

Things will be...

Q: BUT AN APPROXIMATE TIME-FRAME... HOW SOON?

A: The university will take at least two years to begin with, but the structure will start immediately.

So first I want to cut out all that is ugly, because my understanding is: the more you feed people on ugly things, the more you make them accept the ugly. Slowly slowly they feel that this is how human beings are -- they kill, they murder, they war. They do all these things and this is natural, this is just how human beings are.

Why, when you can have Buddha, Lao Tzu, or Kabir and beautiful people...? So these people can feel that there is something greater than they are; and that greater has to be achieved, otherwise they would have failed.

Q: WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE A FREE MAN?

A: I am.

Q: ARE YOU A SANNYASIN?

A: No.

Q: WOULD YOU EXPLAIN THIS WORD? -- IT INTRIGUES ME.

A: "Sannyas" is an old word. It used to mean in the old context "renunciation of the world". I have still used it with a new meaning. My meaning is "rejoicing the world".

Renunciation to me is ugly because renunciation means cutting things from life, inhibiting, repression; leave the wife, leave the children, leave the... leave everything. And these people who have been teaching renunciation of life are the cause of poverty in the world, are the cause of beggars in the world, are the cause of crimes in the world.

In Buddha's time thousands of people became monks. Now, what happened to their wives, what happened to their children? They were dependent on them.

Nobody ever bothers that these people did something good? Their wives must have become prostitutes; their children must have become orphans, beggars.

And these millions of people who became monks, they became a burden on the society because they became non-productive.

So they did a double crime: they left their duties, and on the other hand they became a heavy burden on the society. Still there are millions of sannyasins in India, and they are a burden; they don't produce anything. This is strange, that in five thousand years of history, no Indian sannyasin has created anything. He has not helped the world to become more beautiful, more richer, more human. How they can help? -- they have abandoned it.

They have really taught people that it is not worth... their hopes are for paradise somewhere far away, beyond death. And my sannyas is rejoice the world, be in the world and be totally in the world.

Q: I BELIEVE YOU STARTED ONE OF YOUR FIRST INITIATION CAMPS IN MANALI?

A: Yes.

Q: IS IT A COINCIDENCE YOU ARE BACK HERE OR WHAT DO YOU CALL IT? -- DESTINY?

A: It is a coincidence because I don't believe in any destiny.

Q: HOW DO YOU INTERPRET IT? WAS THIS THE WILL OF GOD THAT YOU SHOULD BE BACK HERE AGAIN?

A: There is no God.

Q: DOES IT HAVE ANY SIGNIFICANCE, YOUR COMING BACK?

No, nothing... just a coincidence... because I like the place. When seventeen years before I had a camp here and started sannyas here, I had liked the place, so when we were coming and it was a question where.... So I told them find out something in the Himalayas just for a few weeks to rest before you find a permanent place. And they found this "Span" was good. So it was just a coincidence.

Q: NO DIFFICULTIES HERE, NO INHIBITIONS, NO RESTRICTIONS?

A: No restrictions, no inhibitions.

Q: YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE AN ABSOLUTELY FREE PERSON: DON'T YOU FEEL HEMMED IN NOW BY THE SORT OF CELEBRITY YOU HAVE ACQUIRED?

A: No, nothing... there is no problem, because I have...

Q: NO, BUT THERE ARE SO MANY PEOPLE AROUND YOU ALL THE TIME.

A: No, that does not matter. Whether I am in the crowd or alone, I am alone.

Q: I THINK THAT WILL DO IT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

A: Good! Come again whenever you like.

Q: AS LONG AS YOU ARE HERE.

A: Won't be so long!