Chapter 08

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

BHAGWAN: You can take notes or tape because they will be totally different so it is not a disturbance for them. And your session for tomorrow is separate, so there is no need to worry.

QUESTION: (INAUDIBLE)

ANSWER: Come closer. You can also be close here this side so you will feel easier. Mm. Something said in Hindi.

Q: BHAGWAN, IS YOUR EXPERIENCE SHOWS THAT THE MESSAGE OF SAGES AND ENLIGHTENED PERSONS IS INVARIABLY MISCONSTRUED OR IGNORED. DOES IT MEAN THAT MANKIND IS DESTINED TO SUFFER PERPETUALLY ON ACCOUNT OF HIS OWN FOLLIES?

A: I am not a pessimistic. I hope even against hope. And this is something of that kind.

The man of understanding, enlightenment has enormous difficulties. First his experience happens in a thoughtless state of mind. So when he tries to convey it to people, invariably he has to use words.

Out of hundred enlightened people almost ninety-nine have remained silent for the simple reason because the moment you put a wordless experience into words something essential is lost.

The difference is such as if you see a beautiful bird on the wing in the open sky.

It is so beautiful, the freedom, the space, the infinity... and then you catch the bird, put it into a golden cage, very precious... in a way it is the same bird, but truly it is not the same bird.

Where is its sky and where are its wings and where is its freedom? All is lost. It's infinity is gone. Now he is almost dead.

The same happens with the enlightened person. He experiences something at the very climax of consciousness where no word, no thought, can ever enter. From those sunlight peaks of the Himalayas he has to bring his experience to the dark valleys where light has never penetrated. So the moment he speaks, something very essential is lost at that very time. The first fall has begun, the first misunderstanding has started. And it starts with the enlightened man himself, it is not to be dumped on the common man.

When that word reaches to the ordinary people who are full of all kinds of conditionings, they cannot understand it in the same way the enlightened person means it. It is not their fault, they are not to be punished for it, they have to be pitied. They have never known anything like that. It is just like if you talk to a small child about a sexual orgasm -- you can talk about it -- but the small child will not understand anything what you are talking, you are simply talking nonsense. And if the small child sees you making love to your wife, he will think you are killing his mother.

More than that he cannot understand. You are having one of the most beautiful experience of your life and your child thinks you are killing your mother. You are fighting... at the most according to his state of mind he can think you are fighting.

The similar is the state when the word of the awakened reaches to the unawakened -- it changes its whole color. Because the unawakened hears it through his own conditionings. And this kind of experience has never happened to him, hence the misunderstanding. But even if misunderstood, it still has some flavor, some beauty, some grandeur that ordinary people become devoted to it, dedicated to it but their devotion and dedication is bound to be exploited. Not by the enlightened man but by a new kind of person, the priest and his whole race, the priesthood. They become mediators. They are scholars, they are men of words, they pretend to interpret the enlightened person to those who cannot understand. And they become the greatest barrier. And up to now this has been the case and I don't think it is going to change. This is going to remain unless we make enlightenment something of a wider experience -- nothing special... that few people reach only to the Gourishankar and everybody else believes that gourishankar exists because Edmund Hillary says so.

Unless we can make it so widespread that no priest can deceive you. And this is one of my basic works: to make meditation as simple that anybody who is interested in being silent, anybody who is interested in being at ease, at home, peaceful. Anybody who wants to sleep a dreamless sleep....

I am not talking about God because then it becomes a very special thing. I am not talking about paradise, then it becomes a special quest. I am not talking about reincarnation. I am talking about things in which it is difficult to find a man who is not interested -- silence, peace, love, compassion, joy. And I am trying to connect meditation with these things rather than with a god which nobody has seen, with a paradise which is beyond death, with reincarnation which may be just a hypothesis, and with all kinds of jargon all the religions have produced.

I am a very scientific mind. My approach is that whether you are Hindu or Mohammedan or Christian, communist, theist, atheist... it doesn't matter. I don't see that the atheist is not interested in being peaceful, silent. He may not be interested in God but he is bound to be interested in a certain well-being that comes out of his own innermost core.

And meditation is only a way to reach to that innermost core.

And I have found there are one hundred twelve methods of meditation exhaustive... you cannot add anything more to it, the science is complete. But in those one hundred twelve methods of meditation I have found a running thread -- just as in a garland hidden behind the flowers there is a running thread. You see the flowers, you see the garland but you don't see the thread which is really holding the flowers and making the garland.

Those one hundred twelve methods have a running thread of meditation and that is very simple. The simplest man can do that. A child who can understand language can do it. The man who is on his deathbed, even in his last moments can do it and can transform himself.

So the only possible way that I can see is: make meditation simple, make it associated with things which normal human beings aspire for. Don't unnecessarily make it complicated, religious, theological, philosophical -- let it be purely a scientific technique.

It is just like you don't understand how electricity works but you know the switch. You don't know the inner working of the electricity. For that you need to study, you need to go to a university to understand and even people like Albert Einstein are reported to have said that, "I do not know how actually electricity works and I don't know certainly what it is." But we know the actual application of it.

Certainly meditation is far more subtle than electricity. All that human beings need to know is the simple application of it. And I have not come in my life across a single person who is not interested in things I have told to you. He may be afraid of the word meditation but he is not afraid of silence, he is not afraid of peace, he is not afraid of love, he is not afraid of being full of joy, he is not afraid of knowing himself....

Once you connect these human aspirations with the science of meditation there is a hope that the humanity may not be destined to remain always in ignorance and there is a possibility that the enlightened person's statements can be understood.

But they can be understood only if you have some kind of experience to connect.

Buddha failed, Mahavira failed -- the reason was simple. They had the experience -- as far as they themselves are concerned, they have succeeded; but they failed to convey the experience to other people because they were not aware that the common man is not interested in finding out the mystery of existence.

He is so burdened with his life, there is no time for him to search for the mystery of life. And what he is going to do even if he finds the mystery of life? You cannot eat it, you cannot make a house out of it.

They were talking from their heights without taking note that people who are in the darker valleys know a different language.

It has been said that `if you are thirsty, you have to go to the well, the well cannot come to you.' In a certain sense it is true. But as far as spirituality is concerned I want to say it emphatically that `the thirsty cannot go to the well.'

In the first place he is not aware that he is thirsty, he is not aware of what he is thirsty because he has never tasted water. He is not aware that there are wells available where his thirst can be quenched.

So against the ancient proverb, I say to you that `the well has to go to the thirsty.'

There is no other way. And the way for the well to go to the thirsty is to understand the ordinary man's conditioning, his aspirations and somehow join his aspirations with something which can take him out of his darkness.

It is a difficult task; perhaps the most difficult task. But it is a great challenge too.

I have been talking to ordinary people my whole life and I know how it is difficult to manage some kind of communication, but I can say with great humility that I have been able to succeed in reaching thousands of hearts.

And if it is possible for me, it is possible for all. Because this is one of my basic dictums that whatever possible for one human being is possible for all human beings.

Your so-called old founders of religions have done a very basic mistake that they all claim they are special.

Jesus is born out of a virgin Mary. You are not born out of a virgin mother, and if you were born you would be a bastard, not a Jesus Christ. His followers have created hundreds of stories which are all bogus: that he walked on waters, that he cured people of their diseases by just laying his hands on them -- not only that, he raised a dead man back to life.

All these stories... if true, then just think of a simple thing: if all these stories are true then the contemporaries of Jesus have never noted them. Not a single Jewish book notes, and such miraculous acts! On the contrary, this is the reward that they crucify Jesus. I cannot think that a man who raises people from death can be crucified in any country, in any century!

The truth is that all these stories are invented. But the followers have to invent these stories to make Jesus as far away from you as possible.

Hindus say their Krishna, Rama and other autaras, are God's incarnations on the earth. You are not God's incarnation, Krishna is. Naturally if Krishna attains to ultimate enlightenment, there is nothing to be surprised, he is already the perfect incarnation of God. You are just a small creature.

The English word for `man' means mud. `Human' comes from humus.

The Arabic word for `man' -- admi -- also means mud.

You are just mud. There is unbridgeable gap between you and your prophets and your founders of religions.

Buddha is born while his mother is standing. No woman has ever given birth to a child standing, but it is not difficult -- perhaps she was a kind of some gymnastic. More puzzling is that Buddha is born also standing. Still more puzzling she(sic) walks seven steps -- this is the first act that he does on the earth.

And after seven steps he declares to the whole world that "I am the most enlightened being who has ever been on the earth or who will ever be on the earth."

Now all this nonsense... the child is not even seven minutes old. He is walking, he is talking, he is declaring!

The whole idea and the desire of all the religions has been to separate their founders from the humanity, to create respect, to create worship, to create devotion. But all that respect, worship and devotion is nothing but spiritual slavery.

If all these people have insisted that they are as human beings as you are and whatever they have attained is your potentiality, and there is no bridge between you and them because there is no gap -- the difference is only between the bud and the flower. What difference it is? In fact, the bud is in a better position, the flower by the evening will be gone. The bud has life ahead, the bud has future; the flower has blossomed, it has only passed, it has released its fragrance, now the petals will fall down and the flower will disappear... the bud is still going to remain, its treasure is still to be unburdened.

The difference is the same as in the rising sun and the setting sun. A Buddha is a setting sun -- beautiful, glorious, so many colors... but remember he is a setting sun, he has reached to his ultimate potentiality. You are a rising sun with all the potentiality in front of you, with the whole sky to travel, with all the colors to spread, with all the experience to go through.

If all these religious people have insisted only on one point: that there is no difference basically between them and you, humanity would have been in a totally different state of a tremendous consciousness, awareness, alertness, and of a great self-respect. They denied self-respect, they destroyed humanity, they forced you to be just creatures, humus, mud....

My effort is totally different. That's why I am condemned all over the world by everybody. I take it as a compliment because sooner or later there will be people who will recognize what I am doing. It takes time.

Perhaps I may not be here when I am recognized, but I know that it is going to happen because what I am saying is absolute truth: that there is no difference between Gautam Buddha and you. The only difference is you are asleep and he is awake. What kind of difference is that?

The person who is asleep can be awake any moment. He has the potentiality to be awake, otherwise he cannot be asleep. A dead person is not asleep because he cannot be awake.

Sleep and being awake are two sides of the same coin. That's why I go on insisting that I am not special, that I am not any incarnation of God, that I am not a prophet, that I am not a messiah, that I am simply a human being just like you.

The only difference... which is not much of a difference, is: that I have opened my eyes and you are keeping them closed. And I am trying in every way to shake you, to hit you from this side, from that side, hoping that perhaps you may open your eyes. And once you open your eyes you will see there has never been any difference. There is every hope of an enlightened humanity, but the work has to be on the lines I am saying, not on the lines Mohammedans, Hindus, Buddhists, Jainas, Christians, Jews have been following.

On that way humanity is destined to remain in darkness.

Just look Jesus' whole life. It is not long, he was crucified when he was thirty- three and his life as a teacher was only three years. When he was thirty he started teaching. In three years he is teaching continuously only one thing: that he should be accepted as the only begotten son of God, that a special messenger, that a prophet, that whatever he is saying he is not saying, it is God's word.

Three years continuously his whole effort is to prove that he is special. He seems to be a megalomaniac.

There are far more beautiful things to teach, and this way it is not going to help anybody... it did not help even him! It led him to the crucifixion. But these people were bound to be misunderstood because they created a distance between themselves and humanity -- too much. It seems to be some kind of a spiritual ego.

Destroy that distance. Let your Buddhas and your Mahaviras and your prophets and messiahs mix in the crowd, be part of ordinary humanity. And there is tremendous beauty in being just ordinary. It is so relaxing. Because to be special is a tension, a constant tension that you have to keep up to the standard you are proposing to the world.

For example, Mahavira lived naked. Now this is stupid. Whole year round: it was hot and he was naked, it was cold and he was naked... just to prove that he is special, that neither Krishna nor Ram nor Buddha nor anybody else has reached to the height that he has reached -- they are still dependent on clothes; he has attained absolute independence.

He will not brush his teeth because that is an effort to beautify the body. He will not take a bath because that is you are still materialistic. He was stinking!

In a part of India like Bihar, which is full of dust and he was perspiring and dust, no bath, no mouthwash... but he is proving something. He must have lived in an immense tension. Not only that he was stinking to you, he must have been stinking to himself.

Anybody who tries to be special has to keep certain tensions. Only an ordinary man can relax because there is nothing to fear.

All these people who have founded your religions are not authentically spiritual.

It is a new kind of politics, it is a new kind of power -- they have discovered how to rule over masses without being on the throne, without taking any responsibility for them. And small things....

I was passing through a village and people told me that, "You must see a man in our town who attracts thousands of people every day because for twelve years he has been standing."

I said, "But what spiritual quality one can attain by just standing? He should be mad, you should send him to some mental asylum. And what is the need of thousands of people to come and worship him?" But I was passing from the road anyway so I stopped and went to see the man and I had tears in my eyes. That man's legs have become what happens in a certain disease called elephantiasis -- when your legs become too fat and your whole body shrinks.

(Tape side B) Even if he wanted to sit, he could not. And for twelve years the methodology that he was using... because it is not easy to stand for twelve years... he was handing on a wooden rod with his hands so that he cannot fall, even if he falls asleep. And around him continuously people were chanting, supporting so that he does not fall. And I looked at the man's face -- no sign of intelligence. I looked at his eyes -- just empty, dead, they could have been of stones. What he has gained? He has gained tremendous power -- thousands of followers pouring their money in his feet every day from the morning till late in the night, the procession continued.

This is a special politics, and this politics has created a gap -- I want to destroy the gap.

I want you to walk hand in hand with Buddha and then there is no reason...

because sometimes what cannot be said through words can be said just by holding your hand. Sometimes what cannot be said by any language can be just said sitting silently by your side, or by a hug.

Language is not the only way of expression. For example, I was in the American jail and every jailer fell in love with me. The first jailer fell in love with me so much that he allowed a press conference in the jail which was never done. He risked... he said, "Nothing to be worried. I am going to be retire in a year or two, at the most they can throw me out now. But I am going to make a precedent." A big press conference he arranged in the jail.

He brought me there. I told him, that "Now you will have to do one thing more.

You will have to remove these handcuffs because with handcuffs I cannot speak because half of my speech is with my gestures. I will not be able to find words."

And he understood, he said, "That is true. When we are listening to you we are also listening to your hands, they are also saying something, they are also indicating something, they are also emphasizing something."

So they are substituting what is missing in language. What cannot be said by hands can be said by eyes.

But keeping this distance is sheer egoistic.

I know it is a difficult task but it is a great challenge too. And for my sannyasins, this is going to be the work. Never for a single moment think yourself special, extraordinary.

The common masses and we, are not separate. They may think we are separate but how can we think we are separate?

They may think to keep a distance but how can we allow the distance, we want to come closer to their heart.

What has happened in the past has to be forgotten. And past is not all, there is eternity available. So everything impossible can be made possible.

Okay.

Q: BHAGWAN, WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY SOMETHING TO THOSE INNOCENT PEOPLE WHO HAVE KNOWN YOU ONLY THROUGH NEWSPAPERS AND NEVER CARE TO READ AND UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE SAID. WHAT IS YOUR BASIC MESSAGE FOR THEM?

My basic message to all the people is: always remember that if you are really a seeker of truth, then go to the source.

It is not right just to depend on the news media. The news media has its own limitations. First: it cannot give my whole message, it has no space for it. Second:

if it tries to give my whole message it will not find audience for it.

The whole news media looks at the audience, follows the audience what you need, what you like... it is a very strange thing but one never thinks about it, that your leaders are followers of their own followers. They always look what the followers like -- that has to be said. Do whatever you want to do but say only that which your followers want to listen. And the same is the case with the newspapers, television, radio. Say what the people are asking for. And people are asking for wrong things.

They are asking for sex, pornography. They are asking for violence. They are asking for all kinds of sensations. They are not interested in the higher values of life for the simple reason because for centuries your religious people have repressed their lower instincts so much that now their lower instincts have immense power and those lower instincts demand some kind of fulfillment.

You have been told to murder is wrong, so naturally you cannot murder. But seeing in a film a murder scene you can see the change in yourself. You may have been sitting relaxedly with your back to the chair -- as the murder scene comes you become more alert, you leave the back of the chair, you come closer to the murder, you don't want to miss a single thing, you are identifying yourself in that scene. This is what your religious people have done to you.

Your films are full of violence, full of sex, full of murder, rape, suicide... these are your demands. And the people who are producing those films or magazines or newspapers are just businessmen. I myself have been once a journalist but I could not go more than few weeks. The owner called me, he said, "You should have born in SATYUG."

I said, "What has happened?"

He said, "You will destroy my paper. You have already reduced my readership to half."

I said, "It does not matter if your paper is finished, that is not the point. But right things should reach to people."

But he said, "They don't want the right thing, and I am not here for charity purposes. I am a businessman and I am in a trouble because we have made a contract for one year. In one year you will make me bankrupt!" Because I changed all politicians to the last page, I reduced their speeches to small articles not covering the whole first page, I removed their pictures, there is no need for their pictures every day to be insisted on people's mind. Because there are so many beautiful people and the world knows nothing about them.

I would like a big picture of Ravi Shankar playing on his sitar on the front page.

People should know....

I would like some sculptor, some poet... the first page should be for the creators.

And I reduced completely all news about suicide and murder, violence... and I said, that "It helps nobody. It really creates an atmosphere that violence is the way of life, everywhere it is happening, every newspaper is talking about it, everywhere there is rape. So why you are lagging behind, you also have a woman in your mind that you would like to rape. When everybody is doing it, then why not join?"

I told him a story: two men are going to the market and one says, that "There is a riot between Mohammedans and Hindus and the Hindus are destroying the mosque. And as Hindus we should go and help."

The other man said, that "That does not seem to be a right thing. The mosque has done no harm to us and even Mohammedans who go to the mosque simply pray there. That is the only place where they are prayerful and you are destroying it!

That is illogical."

Next day the man who was persuading that "We should go and destroy the mosque" was surprised. The first man was destroying it. He asked, "What has happened?"

He said, "When I saw everybody is doing it then it must be right."

When you read every day from every corner: the radio is saying the same thing, the television is saying the same thing, the newspaper is saying the same thing, the films are saying the same thing... you are surrounded by a very subtle mind atmosphere in which you are going to be drowned.

I told my owner, that "I have been publishing because there are good things also happening in the world. It is not that everybody is raping, it is not that everybody is committing suicide, there are people who are doing some good work, beautifying life, helping people and I am trying to find those people and their work."

Just that day I had published an article on Baba Amtay(*).

Very few people know about the man that he has devoted his whole life to the lepers, he has made a beautiful place for the lepers in Maharashtra. Thousands of lepers and he has proved it wrong that just by remaining in touch with lepers you will be infected. He lives with them, his wife lives with them, his children live with them and they all serve them and he has made all those thousands of lepers again human beings because they are all producing something. If their hands cannot do, then their feet can do something. If their feet cannot do, their hands can do something. Not a single leper is unproductive. And he has given them dignity. Otherwise they were thrown out of their towns, they were not allowed in the towns, nobody was ready even to talk to them, nobody was ready to give them any work. Now this man should be talked....

There may be many people who may become Baba Amtay(*). There may be many people who may be lepers somewhere suffering, may go to his beautiful place. He calls it `Anandvan'(*) -- the forest of bliss. And it is a beautiful forest and something worth seeing, that how people which have been for centuries condemned can be raised back to dignity, to self-respect... now they are earning their own food, their own clothes and they are not dependent on anybody.

You will be surprised that Baba Amtay's(*) colony donates to many charitable institutions. And when I used to go to his colony the people were so happy that we can help other people who are helpless just as we were helpless some day.

"So let your circulation drop. I know that Baba Amtay(*) will not increase your circulation... Ravi Shankar will not increase your circulation. But don't be worried, I will not be heavy on you. I can force to remain for one year here to finish your firm, but I will not be heavy on you, I can understand you. So I can withdraw myself. You raise your circulation."

So they have limitations. So the people who are interested... at the most what news media can do is to create curiosity, interest. From there you have to go to the deeper sources: to my books, to my tapes, to my videos. If you think that just the newspaper's information is enough then you will be misguided.

So this is my message to the man around: that from the newspapers and other news media take the hint.... Now almost all over the world every newspaper is talking about me, every radio, every television. There are few who have the intelligence and courage to represent me rightly, even risking their jobs. There are few who are intelligent enough but don't have courage, they cannot risk their jobs but they can at least be factual. They need not distort.

But the majority will be there which will try to distort everything so it becomes sensational. It will take things out of context to make it sensational.

But there is no problem just the people have to understand their limitations. And they have to take the hint that if the whole world media is interested in this man... they may be making famous or notorious, they may be condemning me or praising me -- does not matter. What matters is that the whole world news media is interested in this man, it is worth searching a little bit on your own.

You will not be at a loss.

Q: BHAGWAN, NEWSPAPERS ARE MISGUIDING THE LOCAL PEOPLE THAT PRESENCE OF YOUR SANNYASINS WILL POLLUTE THE VALLEY OF GODS. BHAGWAN, CAN WE, THE PEOPLE OF MADHYA PRADESH, BE HELPFUL IN YOUR WORK, AND HOW? PLEASE GUIDE US.

A: First, what do you have to call it a valley of gods?

It is one of the poorest part of the country. In fact, people are surprised that why you call it valley of gods. Once it was, once it can again be. And what those people are telling to the masses that my people will pollute it. Ask them "What do they mean?" Because my people are the cleanest people you can find. My people don't use any drugs. My people are vegetarian. My people are meditative, loving, rejoicing, singing, dancing -- they can make it really the valley of gods.

I can accept the challenge because my experience of two communes: one I had made in Poona, ten thousand sannyasins were living there. And the trouble with the people surrounding the commune was jealousy, because they were really living like gods. I don't believe in poverty, I am absolutely against it, it can be destroyed very easily. It is being protected by vested interests: the politicians and the religious leaders.

Ten thousand people were living self-sufficiently, meditating, dancing, loving and rejoicing and that was creating in the local population a tremendous jealousy that "What is happening to these people, why it is not happening to us?"

That was the cause of their being against.

The same happened in America. I was thinking India is a poor country, my commune is rich because richness is a very simple thing: a little understanding and poverty disappears. But perhaps it is just an island and around is the ocean of poverty and naturally it creates jealousy that they are not being able to live a life of joy. It becomes anger, it becomes violence.

I thought perhaps America will not react in the same way, but strange to say, the human mind is the same. It does not make any difference between the Indian or the American. In America in four years we changed a desert into an oasis, we made a dream come true.

Perhaps that is the only time communism has existed in the world -- those four years. Because we stopped the circulation of money in the commune; money cannot be used inside the commune. So you may have millions of dollars and I may not have a single dollar but that does not make you rich, and that does not make me poor. Money cannot be used inside the commune. You can donate to the commune but you cannot purchase anything inside the commune. Whatever you need, commune will supply.

In four years' time there was no crime, no rape, no murder, no suicide, no violence and American politicians became afraid because news media started coming, that what we have done? That desert was lying there for fifty years.

Nobody was buying it, what you will do with a desert? And it was not a small piece of land, it was eighty-four thousand acres. We purchased the land, the politicians of Oregon laughed, the neighbors laughed that we are fools, we don't know anything... what we are going to do with this land, nothing can be produced in it.

But we managed to make lakes, collect rainwater, big dams collect rainwater, made houses for five thousand sannyasins; and we did everything by our own hand. We did not take any support from any American. Nobody from outside the commune was asked. We made our roads and we turned the valley in a beautiful oasis.

The people who had known it before and came to see it could not believe. And our people were meditating in the morning then listening to me then going to work, then eating together because we had only one kitchen for five thousand people. And when there were festivals we had one kitchen for twenty thousand people. And it was a joy to eat with twenty thousand people. And somebody is playing a guitar and somebody is dancing. And it was not an ordinary thing: that you are eating and people are dancing around you or somebody is playing. And people are so happy.

In the evening when the work was finished they had still enough energy to sing and to dance, they have their singing and dancing places.

It became a rumor that perhaps they are hypnotized, otherwise how people can be so happy?... continuously. You can be forgiven once in a while if you smile, but if you smile the whole day then you cannot be forgiven, something is wrong!

To be healthy twenty-four hours is not acceptable.

Sadness is acceptable, long faces are acceptable. People annoyed with existence, complaining, grumpy -- they are acceptable.

But people dancing are not acceptable. Something has gone wrong with these people. For the simple reason because they are in minority and you are in majority. The miserable majority destroyed the blissful minority.

These experiences help me to make it a point that the local people, wherever I make a commune, should be involved in it. The commune should not be anymore a separate thing, it should be part of the local people. It will be difficult because those local people will bring all their conditionings, they have to be cleansed of their conditionings, but that seems to be the only way. Otherwise sooner or later the distance will be so much that they will be angry, that it is their land and you are so happy and we are not!

I would love local people to be involved. The problem is people who have nothing, even they are not ready to become part of a commune because the commune means a total change of your attitudes. For example, you have a family. Commune is not a family. Otherwise for five thousand people we will have twenty-five hundred kitchens, twenty-five hundred women wasting their life in kitchens. This is sheer wastage of human energy! Just one kitchen with fifteen people managing it was enough; there was no need....

With the local people these are the problems: they will cling to the family.

A commune is a loosening that you lose the grip of the family. The children were taken care of by the commune -- they have their own hostel, and it was a great experience to see because I had made it clear that bigger children should take care of small children. There will be a supervisor but children should be responsible, they should not be just irresponsible, that they have to be taken care of, that's all. They have to take care of smaller children and they will be taken care of by bigger children.

And it worked out... I was not thinking that it will work out with children. They immensely enjoyed it, taking care of small children. Rather than playing with toys and marrying toys, they started diverting their energy and taking care of small children. And because they were taking care of small children, they became responsible, mature, protective, and the fights that are natural, disappeared.

They were allowed to go to their parents. The parents were allowed to go there but the responsibility of the children was the commune.

(Tape side C; no overlap) The responsibility of the children was not the parents. The parents are not going to decide that the child will become an engineer, it will be the psychological department of the commune which will decide what are the potentials of the child and what he should be taught. The child may have a potential of becoming a great dancer and you are sending him to become an engineer. He will remain unhappy his whole life because he could not become what he was naturally meant to become, and what he has become will simply create misery.

Any commune that I am going to start anywhere is now going to take local people in, whoever wants to come in just they have to be a little courageous to drop their clingings, to drop their old habits and ideas. For example, in America two hundred street people joined the commune. People think America is rich but there are thirty million beggars and it is absolute bogus publicity. And these beggars are starving on streets, they don't have any home, they don't have clothes, they don't have food. Two hundred beggars came, we accepted them, we made our conditions clear to them because you have been brought up in crime -- they all have been to jails, they all have committed all kinds of things, they all have been taking drugs, alcohol... it was made clear to them that there will be no need for alcohol, there will be no need for drugs.

We have a better drug, just you have to give us a little time: just if you can control yourself for three weeks the meditation will work and you will not need any drug.

And they remained for four years and they were accustomed, confirmed criminals but they did not commit any crime; on the contrary, they were so happy because for the first time a commune, a community has accepted them as human beings. Otherwise they were simply thought to be dogs. Nobody cared about them that they are human beings. In fact, they used to commit crime just to go to jail because at least there is home, at least they provide you clothes, food, cigarettes, medicine, and no work. So why die starving on the street, just commit a small crime and go to the jail.

When I was in jail I asked people, "How many times you have been here?"

They said, "Who counts? Because each time we are released, within a week we are back. Because what we will do outside? We don't have a home, nobody to take care of, nobody who is waiting for us. And we are treated like inhuman beings. Here at least our necessities are given to us, a doctor checks us, medicines are given to us, television is available to see, cards are allowed -- you can play, cigarettes are free -- you can smoke as many as you want, clothes are there...

what else one needs? And a beautiful community of four or five hundred inmates who are old friends, meeting in one jail, in another jail."

So, but I would like to start a commune this time with a new framework involving local people in it so that other local people can see a link and the commune does not become a separate island.

And I love this place and I would like to make it really a valley of gods but your local people are in absolute support with me. Your Panchayat(*) heads have come to me to invite that I should remain here, the bar association has come that I should remain here, other associations have invited me to remain here. But their invitation does not mean much, if the central government does not want me to be here... then I cannot do anything because the whole thing depends on the central government and they are under American pressure.

I have in America... in America there are international, private security agencies.

I have the best international security agency working for me to inform me about all the secrets that is going on in governments against me or for me. Now from America I have received the information that India is finished for you because Indian politicians are under too much pressure by the American politicians. And if you don't believe us you can try to check their confidential file.

And one of the friends who had the approach managed to check the file and they were right. The American government is trying to tell them that I should not be directly attacked because that becomes a difficult matter to arrange... they have seen, they attacked me directly and they have seen how they became a target of world news media and lost immense prestige. "Don't attack me directly," that is their suggestion, "but don't allow foreigners to be here..." so that I cannot work.

Because I have trained my four thousand, five thousand people for every work -- I will need them if I want to create a commune here because they will work without any pay and they will work twelve to fourteen hours; it will be their work of love. And they are geniuses in their work: engineers, doctors, professors, psychologists. We had our own hospital, we had our own university, we had our own psychological therapy department. We had everything that we needed. We had our farmers who know how to use modern technology -- latest. We had our own scientists -- if anything we want to create, they were ready to create. For example, we needed tents for winter because for winter tents have never existed.

They managed to make tents for winter.

The American government, rather than rewarding them, imposed a fine on us and not a small fine -- one and half crore rupees fine that we have made those tents without permission.

Now tents don't need any permission but they managed, manipulated the law and they said, that "They are not tents because they can be used in winter, they are permanent structures."

I asked the government, the attorney-general, to "Come before you declare your fine otherwise you will look a fool. Just come and see, they are tents, they are not permanent structures! Although our scientists have made them in such a way they can be heated, they can be airconditioned, they have a separate bathroom; but they are not permanent structures."

But without listening he imposed the fine. I told my people, "You just go to the court, no argument is needed, you simply take a tent... unfold the bag, put the tent inside the court -- because it takes only ten minutes to fix it. Tell the magistrate to come and have a look. And within ten minutes unfold it, put it back, bag, into the bag. And ask him, `Can a permanent structure be made in ten minutes? And can be packaged back in ten minutes?'" The magistrate simply laughed. He said, "There is no case, this is a tent."

And I told publicly to the attorney-general of Oregon, that "You should jump into the ocean and commit suicide. Imposing such a big fine without even seeing the thing, only a very stupid person can do that."

So now the American government pressure on Indian government is that `I should not be attacked directly but I should not be allowed my trained people to live with me, so the whole work can be destroyed.'

So the question is: if your state government, particularly your chief minister as I understand him seems to be a man of courage and intelligence, if he has really guts, then he should not bother about the central government because it is not against the security of the country. It is not a question of central government at all. He should not wait for their green signal. That's what he has said, and the message has come to me, that "I am waiting for their green signal."

That will never come because they are waiting for a green signal from Washington. It is not going to come.

And I cannot wait too long. My people are looking around the world and we have found beautiful places, in fact two South American countries have invited me to make the commune in their countries. So I have sent my people to see what is the situation there and what will be there conditions because I will not work under any conditions.

And we are trying to locate... there are islands, independent islands. Most probably that seems to be the best thing, not to be bothered with politicians or anybody. But I love this place and I wanted really to make it a valley of gods. It is upon the local people to press your chief minister. I am his guest, he should come here, he is my host. And if South American governments can invite me with my whole commune, and they are ready to give land without any price and every support, then I can expect something better in my own country.

So it is a question of the local people. They should give the green flag for which he is waiting. A green flag procession for the chief minister. Because it is not a security question, it is not a defence question, the central government has nothing to do with it. He has to decide it and if he cannot decide it then he should drop the idea that he has guts and he should remember that type of people don't stay long in politics. He should show his mettle. Why he should be afraid? And his people are with me. But the central government is working in its own way.

I was in jail. It was natural that the Indian governments should have asked the American government that without any arrest warrant they have arrested me.

They arrested me at twelve points of loaded guns and I asked them, "Where is the arrest warrant?" They had none. I asked them, "You can simply verbally say to me, `what is my crime.'" They said, "We don't know."

I said, "If you don't know then let me contact my attorney."

They won't allow that either. And in the middle of the night, on an empty airport there was no other way. They won't allow even a phone call to the attorney which is a legal right of every person and particularly in such a situation when you are not providing any arrest warrant and you are putting me in chains, handcuffs, my legs in chains, my waist in chains, and you have nothing, no reason. And you talk of democracy and freedom and all nonsense.

For three days it was in the court, North Carolina. They could not prove a single point against me. They released the six people who were with me on the plane because they could not prove anything. The U.S. attorney-general himself said in his concluding remarks that "We have not been able to prove anything. Neither they have been able to prove anything."

I simply laughed at the point because innocence needs nothing to be proved.

"You have arrested me, you have to prove on what guilt, on what crime you have arrested me. My attorneys have not to prove anything, they have simply to disprove you and they have disproved you. And the simple fact is that six people with me are released. But why you are not releasing me? And you are saying that you have not been able to prove anything."

Still they said that "We cannot release you to the magistrate." The reason of not releasing me on bail was, not that I have committed any crime which is unbailable -- I am a dangerous man.

I said, "This is strange, you have not proved. I have never been dangerous to anybody. I have not harmed anybody, I have not killed anybody. I am a vegetarian, what do you mean by dangerous? I am a dangerous man and I have tremendous amount of money available to me so even if you put me on a bail like ten million dollars I will not bother and I can leave the country, and I have thousands of devoted lovers and friends who can do anything for me."

"That's why we cannot allow."

I said to my attorneys, that "This proves the impotency of the greatest power of the world against a single man that they cannot prevent me from leaving the country."

But their reasoning was just on the surface, that's how things, politicians work.

The magistrate was a woman and she was going to be promoted as a judge and they threatened her. My own jailer told me, that "She has been threatened that if you releases me on bail then she should forget about being a federal judge forever."

So that was the reason that I was not released and why they wanted me not to be released because from Carolina to Oregon there is only eight hours flight. It took me twelve days to reach Oregon. They moved me from one jail to another jail to give me as much harassment as they could. And when I was with them for two, three days they became friendly and they understood that something political seems to be behind it. And ultimately, in one jail, they forced me, the U.S.

marshall himself who is the highest authority of law imposing, he asked me that "My name should be David Washington." And I had to sign under it.

And I will be called David Washington, I will not be called by my name. I asked him, "What kind of law imposition is this? On your coat is written the department of Justice. Just at least remove the coat for the moment. What justice is this? And what is the purpose of this? Do you think me dumb, cannot I see the point that you want me to be in this jail and nobody should know that I am in this jail so you can do anything you want. You can kill me and there will be no record because I never entered in the jail. The question of my being killed in the jail does not arise."

But I told him, "Remember, tomorrow morning all TV. stations, radios, newspapers, will have the news that I have changed my name to David Washington under compulsion by U.S. marshall. There is still time -- you can change your mind, otherwise tomorrow morning...."

He said, "How you will manage that?"

I said, "I have already managed it." Coming from the airport was a woman with me who was going to be released. I told her, that "You be there and just listen to the whole conversation and the whole press media is waiting outside. They will not allow me, they will take me from the back. But when you are released... so whatsoever you hear and whatsoever you think is useful you just tell to the press."

And the woman did good job. She was waiting far away in a corner, sitting for her release and tomorrow morning it was all over the world that they have forced me to sign under a false name. And immediately, early in the morning, they changed me from that jail because it became difficult. The whole media was around the jail. Thousands of cameras, newspaper people asking about David Washington. So they were afraid that either they have to produce David Washington, which they don't have.... And I have signed my own name, signature, in Hindi.

So he looked at it and he said, "What it is? It must be David Washington."

So the news media was asking that "We want to see the form of David Washington because Bhagwan's signature are world known. What signature are there?"

So before anything is inquired they removed me to another jail, immediately.

These politicians, bureaucracy, is not working for humanity. They are just power greedy people.

So if people of Himachal Pradesh want me to be here I am absolutely willing to be here. But alone I cannot do anything for Himachal. They will have to give me permission for at least five thousand people to transform the whole face of Himachal. And in five years time you will see Himachal becoming the topmost tourist attraction in the whole world.

So the question is not me, the question is of your state government and its guts.

So tell them that "If you are man enough then I am ready to take the challenge, but then be supportive. If you cannot, then just tell that this is beyond us. So I should not waste my time here, I have other places which I should visit and finalize."

Anything else?

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU HAVE MORE CRITICS THAN ANYBODY ELSE IN THIS JOB (INAUDIBLE) MANKIND. WHY IS IT SO?

A: Because I have more truths to say to the world than anybody else has ever said before.

Socrates had critics but his truth was simple and one dimensional. My truth is multi-dimensional and it attacks all the conditionings with which everybody has become so much attached. Although they are the causes of your misery, they are like cancer which needs to be operated. And operation is going to be painful but it is going to save your life.

Buddha, Mahavir, Lao Tzu, Kabir, Nanak -- they all have said some truths, but those truths were not against your whole conditioning. They were simply talking about your spirituality.

If I was also talking only about spirituality there would have been no criticism -- all praise.

But that would not have helped anybody.

I am not talking only of the flowers, which are beautiful. I am also talking of the roots, which are ugly. And unless you understand the roots you cannot understand the flowers. I am talking about the whole man. Nobody has talked about the whole man. They never talked about your body, they never talked about your mind, they never talked about your psychology, biology... they simply talked about devotion to God, faith in the VEDAS -- which was not hurting anybody. In fact they were supporting your conditionings.

I cannot do that because in the VEDAS I see most of it is rubbish, not even literature. I cannot say that it is a word of God. I cannot say that Manu is an enlightened man because it is Manu who has tortured this country for five thousand years and he is still torturing.

I would like Manu Smriti to be burned and utterly destroyed so no trace is left behind. That hurts.

Nobody has talked about your marriage. They all supported it. I am against it because I see what marriage has done to man. It has made him as miserable as possible. It is a artificial institution, it is not natural. It is good if you love a person to live with the person as long as you love. You may love the person your whole life. But it is possible, today you feel tremendous love, tomorrow it may not be the same. Then you are stuck -- what you are going to do tomorrow? You are going to pretend that you still love your wife? You are going still to make love to your wife whom you don't love -- this is ugly, inhuman.

These people have never talked to real human problems, they have never talked about how many children you should produce, they have never bothered about thousand and one things what kind of education should be given to you. Their whole idea was simply to remain a slave to a certain priesthood -- Hindu, Mohammedan, Jaina, Buddhist, and never to doubt anything. I emphasize it: that was their basic teaching, never to doubt anything.

And for thousands of years you have not doubted things which are really ugly.

For example, Krishna married sixteen thousand wives. And they were not virgin girls, they were somebody else' wives; they had their children, they had their husbands and he simply took those wives away because he was powerful.

This man destroyed sixteen thousand families and you never doubted.

Mohammed had nine wives -- now this is ugly because men and women are of equal number. If a man has nine wives then what about the eight men who will remain without wives? They will become homosexuals, they will become perverted, they will go to the prostitutes. And Mohammed allowed Mohammedans to have four wives. Now this is absolutely absurd. There are not that proportion. Women are not four times more than men.

Just before freedom came to India, Nizam(*) of Hyderabad has five hundred wives, in this century. And nobody doubts.

Naturally they were not criticized because you never doubted. My whole teaching is doubt everything unless you find something which is indubitable, which can be accepted as truth, which cannot be doubted even if you want to doubt there is no way to doubt it.

Naturally I am vulnerable to thousands of criticisms but those criticisms are impotent. Not a single head of any religion... I have challenged everybody, all the Shankaracharyas, the pope, the Imams, Ayatollah Khomeini, for a public exchange of views.

(Tape side D) And I am not saying that it should be amongst my disciples, I am ready to come to Vatican, amongst the Christians. I want to raise questions because I trust that my questions are so clear that even Christians cannot deny it.

But nobody seems to have guts. They go on criticizing but nobody is ready to confront me. That shows the impotency of their criticism.

And I am available. If I have told to the pope publicly that "If you can convince me, I am ready to become a Catholic. But if I convince you then you have to become a sannyasin. With this condition I am ready to enter into any controversy."

But these people I know that they don't have anything of their own. All borrowed knowledge which can be criticized very easily. So it is true. Nobody has been criticized so much in the whole history of man as I am being criticized -- I take it as a compliment. That means nobody has said so many truths and so penetrating and so shattering to all human ignorance as I have done and I am going to do it my whole life to my last breath.

But there are people of intelligence, there are one million sannyasins around the world and at least five million people who love me and there may be more who are sympathizers but are not courageous enough to declare even that they are sympathizers. So it is not only that I have enemies, nature has a certain way of balancing things. If I have so many enemies I must be having so many friends, whether they are known or not known does not matter.

And if I can divide the whole world into two parts, my enemies and my friends, I will be tremendously happy. My work is done. Because even to change half of the humanity it has never happened.

Okay.

A JOURNALIST IN THE AUDIENCE WHO HAS AN APPOINTMENT TO INTERVIEW BHAGWAN IN THE MORNING AND EVENING OF THE NEXT DAY, 25TH, SAYS: SO YOU HAVE TWO FRIENDS HERE.

A: I know, I know... one of them is a sannyasin.

Q: WE ALL WOULD LIKE TO BECOME ONE SIR.

A: Tomorrow morning.

Q: TOMORROW MORNING.