[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]
INTERVIEW WITH KEYI TV, EUGENE OREGON, TRACY BERRY,
Q: ABOUT THESE PRESS INTERVIEWS THAT YOU'VE BEEN DOING THE PAST FEW WEEKS: JOURNALISTS HAVE LEARNED A LOT ABOUT YOU FROM THESE SESSIONS. WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED ABOUT SOME OF THE JOURNALISTS?
Q: WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE? YOU'VE CALLED YOURSELF THE WORLD'S GREATEST SHOWMAN. ARE YOU PLANNING TO PERHAPS TAKE YOUR SHOW ON THE ROAD?
A: No, the roads will come to Rome. All roads will be coming to Rajneeshpuram.
I'm not going on any road.
Q: DOES THIS HERALD AN EXPANSION PHASE FOR RAJNEESHEES -- YOUR GOING SO PUBLIC?
A: They are increasing, and they are expanding all over the world.
Q: SPECIFICALLY, WHAT SORT OF EFFORTS ARE GOING ON?
A: The same that is happening here is happening around the world in all of my communes. People are trying to live in a new way.
The past of humanity has failed, utterly failed. It has not been able to create a better man, a better society. Civilization has only remained a word; it has not been yet actualized.
In my commune, you can see the beginnings of a new man. The commune is not a family. It is just the opposite -- dissolution of the family. Families are small units which have kept people confined -- their love confined, their respect confined.
A commune is coming into the open, out of your small circle of hypnotic conditioning. In the commune you are not a Hindu, nor a Christian, nor a Mohammedan. In the commune you are not a communist nor a fascist. The commune does not live according to any ideology -- political, or religious, or social. Each individual lives according to his freedom, according to his responsibility, according to his meditative consciousness. And the more a person meditates, goes deeper into himself, he starts living on the outside with new values which he had never known before: love, compassion, friendliness, joy, celebration -- and for no reason at all.
People celebrate when there is some reason to celebrate. We simply celebrate, because celebration in itself is a reason. There is no need for any other reason. It is enough unto itself.
Our people are free in every possible way. So we are dropping the old patterns of jealousy, competitiveness, politics. There is no politics, there is no competitiveness, there is no jealousy. If one lover moves to another lover, there is no antagonism. It is simply understood that it is human.
Many inhuman things have been imposed on man. For example, marriage is inhuman. It is forcing two people to live together for a future about which they know nothing.
Here, this moment is enough, and if the next moment also you find yourself loving each other -- good. And if you find that it is difficult, it has become nagging, it has become poisoned -- that you are no more interested in each other -- then to go on living is ugly. It together is wasting energy, the life of two people Both can move, and both can move before things become bad, before things go sour. When they are sweet, friendly, they can move with gratefulness for all those beautiful moments that they lived together.
Q: DO YOU FEEL THAT YOU HAVE A MORAL CODE? IS THERE A WRONG?
IS THERE A RIGHT?
A: No. I don't have any moral code. All moral codes are inventions of different societies in different geographies in different situations, but there is no moral code which is universal.
So I don't teach any moral code, because what is moral today may become immoral tomorrow. What is immoral today may become moral tomorrow. So I don't teach a code that fixes people with the past. I give them insight to see, to be clear, to be aware, to be conscious so that they can find what is good, what is bad in each situation without any code.
My people are not living according to any code, any doctrine, any creed. They are living according to their consciousness. And the whole effort is, how to raise your consciousness higher and higher. So to me, there is only one morality and that is being a conscious being. And then act out of it. You cannot act wrongly.
Q: THE PERCEPTION OUTSIDE OF RAJNEESHPURAM IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TEACHING AMOUNTS TO ANARCHY -- MAYBE A PLEASANT SORT OF ANARCHY.
A: That is absolutely wrong. Anarchy is a reaction against what the governments have done to man. It is not a revolution; it is simply a reaction. And by reactions you cannot live.
For example, the founder of anarchy, Prince Kropotkin, simply wants all the governments to be dissolved immediately. That is stupid, because the man is not capable to cope -- even with all the courts, all the police, all the army and the whole hierarchy of government. Man is criminal, man is murderer, man is rapist -- so a this is stupid idea to dissolve all the governments.
My idea is not for anarchy -- that is not my goal -- but to create better individuals. Finally, perhaps one day we will have so many conscious individuals on the earth that there is no need of any government. But I am not preaching anarchy.
Q: HOW DO YOU COUNSEL YOUR FOLLOWERS TO DEAL WITH THE LAWS OF THE LAND? FOR EXAMPLE, DO YOU URGE THEM TO PERFORM CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE WHERE THEY SEE IT NECESSARY?
A: No, We fight the government, the government agencies. And we follow their rules, because we are playing their game. And we can play the game better than they are playing. And in four year's time we have proved to them that how stupid they are. Laws are made by them, rules are made by them, but we can find loopholes in their laws and loopholes in their rules. And we are going to be here, and going to fight to the ultimate end.
So we are not against their laws. But their laws are made by mediocre politicians, and we have far more intelligent people to fight. We have the biggest law firm in the whole world -- four hundred legal experts continuously getting ready for more and more fight on more and more grounds.
And your governments -- state government, the federal government -- they are all doing many things illegally, against the Constitution. It is their Constitution, it is their law, but they are doing things against it, going against it.
We will be in favor of the Constitution and we will go against them. We will be in favor of the laws and prove to them that they are acting illegally. So our way of fighting is not to disobey. Our way is to prove that we are obeying the laws and you are disobeying your laws. And laws are yours, made by you, and you have committed so many stupidities in them that we are perfectly capable to fight with you.
Q: IT MUST BE DISAPPOINTING TO YOU TO HAVE MET WITH THE LEVEL OF REJECTION AND PERSECUTION.
A: No. In fact, it was perfectly expected. Any new idea has to be ready to accept the challenge of hostility, rejection, persecution. I would have been disappointed if they had ignored me. They could not ignore me.
And strange, it is a small commune, living in a desert trying to make the desert green, an oasis, and they are terrified. These people who are living, loving, dancing, singing -- what harm are these people going to do to them?
In four years' time we have not committed a single crime. In the commune not a single rape has happened. There is no prostitute in the commune. There is no murderer in the commune. There is no thief in the commune. The police in the commune are just sitting, doing nothing, because there is nothing.
We have the city magistrate, but in the court, in four years, nobody has been brought as a criminal. Against such peaceful, loving people the whole of Oregon is afraid. They must be just retarded people.
Q: IT ALSO SOUNDS, THOUGH, LIKE YOU'RE ENJOYING SOME OF THE COMMOTION YOU'RE CAUSING AROUND THE STATE.
A: Mm? I want -- because that gives us strength. Every challenge brings us strength. And we will go on creating more and more challenges. We will not let them sleep peacefully. We sleep peacefully -- we have no trouble.
Q: HAS THE FUROR THROUGHOUT OREGON AND THE U.S.
CONTRIBUTED AT ALL TO THIS CYNICISM?
A: The U.S. has nothing to give to me. In fact, in that way I am disappointed. I was thinking that America must be more intelligent than any other country, less prejudiced than any other country -- really democratic -- but being here for four years what I have found is that democracy is just in the name. Behind the democracy everything undemocratic is going on.
Our own experience is a proof of it. I have not found that America is really a country where individuals are respected, freedom of speech is respected. It is only talked about. And I don't see any sense of humor -- not at all.
They have been taking us so seriously -- and we are taking them so nonseriously; but they cannot understand. We are all the time joking, but they cannot understand simple jokes. They are having secret meetings -- the governor, the attorney general, and they did not allow -- they were discussing us and they did not allow any one of our representatives to be there. If you are discussing us -- at least it is simple courtesy that at least one person from our side should be there and you should listen to what we have to say. They did not allow... they did not allow any journalist either. The governor said, "After our secret meeting I will talk to you and inform you." And whatever he informed us about was simply lies
and nothing else because we have found the confidential file which says just the opposite.
What he had said to the people, to the journalists, to the media -- he was saying that everything is under control and we are pacifying people, there is no problem to be worried, the heat is cooling down.
And in the secret report that they prepared inside they are alerting the army to remain ready. Any moment, if they are ordered, they have to reach Rajneeshpuram in three hours.
Now, what kind of people are these? And what is the need of bringing the army here? We are not a nation, that you have to attack us? And they are lying to the media that things are getting settled and there is no problem. If there is no problem, then why is the army given the alert? And why have you given them a time, that within three hours you have to reach Rajneeshpuram?
So these people, I don't think, have any sense of humor. They are just dodos.
Q: WHO DO YOU FEEL HAS TREATED YOU FAIRLY SINCE YOU'VE COME TO THIS COUNTRY? I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE HERE HAS BEEN AGAINST YOU.
A: Not everyone. Most of the journalists have been very fair, very loving. And those are the only people I have come in contact with from the outside world.
And they have been intelligent and they could understand what I am saying and they could understand the sense of humor.
All the journalists who have come here, except one or two, have enjoyed the place, loved the place, wanted to come again and again.
Q: DID YOU PLAN TO MAYBE GO OUT AND SPEAK TO PEOPLE?
Q: IF YOU WENT OUT AND MET OREGON AND TALKED TO THE PEOPLE, AND THEY FOUND OUT YOU WEREN'T THIS HORRIBLE MONSTER, IN THE MIDDLE OF A BUNCH OF RED-ROBED FOLLOWERS, IT WOULD BE EASIER THAT WAY?
A: No, it would not be, because I have been for thirty years in India, moving around the country; no, it is not so. Shoes have been thrown at me; stones have been thrown at me. I am speaking and in the crowd a band is playing so nobody can hear what I am saying.
Poison has been given me twice, to kill. And the last thing before I left was an attempt on my life.
So I know... and I have had enough of it, so I want to be here; if anybody is thirsty, he can come. If he wants to think me a monster, so far so good. That will give him good nightmares.
Q: WELL, LET'S SAY, I'M THE AVERAGE PERSON IN EUGENE OR PORTLAND, I HAVEN'T SEEN ANYTHING EXCEPT WHAT'S ON THE NEWS OR IN THE PAPER, DOES THAT MEAN THAT I HAVE TO DRIVE TO RAJNEESHPURAM TO FIND OUT OR HOW WOULD I GET.
A: That's the only way. You have to come. And it is such an experiment that there is no other way, you have to come here and be here and meet people and see with your own eyes what is happening.
And it is open. It is not like Soviet Russia, that you can not enter here, that you cannot meet people, that you cannot remain for a few days as our guest. And you can move freely, nobody is preventing you. That's the only way.
And we have our communes all over the world. So if Germans wants to know about us, in Germany we have twelve communes. If Holland wants to know us, we have our communes there. On the same pattern, the same way of life, the same approach towards life, we have places in Australia, in India. We are opening in Japan, and soon we'll be all over the world. Small oases, so whoever wants to know about us has to travel and visit our communes.
Q: THE RUMORS THAT PERHAPS YOU MIGHT BE MOVING TO AUSTRALIA... AND YET, I SEE A LOT OF EXPANSION GOING ON HERE, WHAT IS THE REAL STORY?
A: I was just joking. Because Australia seems to be so much afraid of me. Only Sheela has been there, my secretary, and she has created so much turmoil there, that they are getting very much afraid that I may be coming, so I told the journalist that yes, I am coming; tell them get ready. But I am not going anywhere. I am going to be here and fight the American idiots who are destroying democracy and all human values for which America stands. It is a very strange situation. I, I am fighting for the American Constitution, American values, against the Americans. But this will expose America to the whole world.
That is their fear. And I'm not going anywhere.
Q: QUESTION ON THE JOKING: YOU'VE RATTLED SO MANY PEOPLE'S CAGES BY SAYING, "OH, WELL MAYBE I'LL GO TO AUSTRALIA." OR OH, YES, I WANT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD."
Q: DO YOU AND SHEELA SIT DOWN AND SAY, "OK, LET'S FRIGHTEN AUSTRALIA THIS WEEK," OR IS IT...
A: No, it is spontaneous. There is no need. Because we are absolutely nonserious about it. In Joke, everything is allowed. There is no problem.
Q: THE CONSTITUTION OFFERS FREEDOM OF RELIGION. IT SEEMS THAT WHAT YOU ARE OFFERING IS FREEDOM FROM RELIGION.
A: Certainly Q: SO, HOW DO YOU COUNSEL PEOPLE TO PURSUE THAT? IS FREEDOM FROM RELIGION POSSIBLE?
A: It is possible, and should be made possible, because religion has dominated people, exploited people, kept poverty in the world. Religion has committed so many crimes that it is time we should be finished with it... Jesus says, "Blessed are the poor." The same is the tone of Buddha, the same is the preaching if Mahavira.
They all are consoling the poor people that you will inherit the kingdom of God.
Marx was right only on one point in his all writings: that religion has been the opium of the people. And I agree with him only on that point. It has been the opium! They have drugged people to remain poor... Even in a country like America which has all riches -- the richest country -- there are thirty million people suffering from poverty. Thirty million people are suffering from poverty, and Ronald Regan goes on piling up on nuclear weapons. And there is no point in having more nuclear weapons, because both Soviet Russia and America combined have enough nuclear weapons to destroy humanity seven hundred times. So what is the point now? Nuclear weapons have made war absolutely obsolete. It is meaningless. The whole meaning of war is to win. Now there will be no winner and nobody defeated. The whole of life will be finished. So now war is against life and in favor of death. It is not a question if American democracy or Russian communism, it is a question of whether life has to exist on the earth or not. Thirty million people in your own country are starving on the streets, and you are preparing for war. And you are already equipped too much.
But the politicians are not interested; in fact they want poor people because they can always be purchased. The religious people want poor people because they can be easily converted. That is what Christianity is doing all over the world.
Islam used to do it -- in one hand the sword, in the other hand the Koran. You can choose: either the Koran, or the sword will behead you. Christianity has changed its techniques. In the one hand the Bible, in the other bread and butter.
A little bit nicer, but the inner game is the same.
In India, I tried to find out whether any rich person has ever been converted to Christianity: I could not find a single case. Those who are converted to Christianity are orphans, beggars, poor people, starving people. Now, naturally the catholic pope and his bishops and the whole army of their priests would like that abortion should not be legal, because if it becomes legal, Catholics will be less in number -- where are they going to find orphans. Birth control should not be allowed, it is against God; population should be allowed to grow as people become more and more poor. And that means more customers for Christianity.
Q: MANY PEOPLE BECOME RELIGIOUS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO WITH THEIR LIVES. THEY NEED A CHURCH TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEM. AND IF THAT IS TRUE, HOW COULD THESE RELIGIONS EVER BE ABOLISHED WHEN IT IS THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPORTING THEM?
A: In fact, this is a very vicious circle. Religions teach every child as the child is born, immediately religions catch hold if it -- either Hindu or Mohammedan or Christian. And they start making him feel that he is not capable of deciding for himself, that he has to depend on those who know. That he has to listen to the parents, that he has to listen to teachers, that he has to listen to the priest. They make children slowly dependent, and those children lose their sense of strength, their being, and then naturally they want on everything to be advised and commanded, to be ordered. They can function only if they are ordered. If they are nit ordered, they are in confusion. They are always in search of a father figure. It is not strange that they call the Christian priest father: It is not strange that God is called the father. There is simple psychology behind it. They need a father figure; but I am saying it is a vicious circle. Religions create it and then they say people need guidance. Nobody needs guidance. I have people here -- five thousand people are here, one million sannyasins are around the earth -- none if them needs any guidance. None of them is dependent on anybody else. If one million people can depend on themselves and take the sole responsibility for themselves, because I am not their father -- I as not even their uncle! And I Am not their leader; because I cannot humiliate a person by forcing him to follow me.
I am just a friend, not more than that. I can talk to these people. It is up to them to decide for or against. I am not asking them to believe in me. And all the religions have done that; that's why they are called faiths. I am against faith. My whole approach is unless you know it, never believe anything. And the beauty us that when you know, there is no need to believe -- you know it. Belief is always for the ignorant. Faith is always for those who are not courageous enough to enquire. I teach doubt; I teach skepticism; I teach enquiry. And a person has to remain in the state of not knowing until he comes to know. Belief covers his ignorance. You do not know about God, you do not know about what happens after death. Naturally, you start believing in somebody who pretends to know.
Neither your popes know about it; nor Jesus Christ knew about it. Even on the cross, he shouted toward the sky: "God have You forsaken me?" He was a believer -- just illiterate, uneducated. And the people who were following him were also of the same grade, third rate. Those third-rate people became apostles of Christianity -- carpenters, woodcutters, fishermen. Not a single rabbi was a follower of Jesus Christ, and the whole Judea was full of learned rabbis. What does it show? It simply show that Jesus appeal is only for the very ignorant, and those ignorant people want to cover their ignorance, they are ready to believe.
You will find totally different kind of people around me. You will not find ignorant people, you will not find illiterate people; you will find people who are almost all graduates from universities, have master's degrees, have Ph. D.s, D.Litts. Most of them are highly qualified professionals: psychologists, professors, doctors. You cannot enforce these people to believe. They have come to me because everywhere they are being indoctrinated and their intelligence was in rebellion. Here they have found a place where no indoctrination is happening. I don't have any doctrine to teach; I don't have any program to give. I only deprogram people and leave them to themselves. Now find you way, be courageous and go into the unknown.
Q: HERE IN RAJNEESHPURAM THEY'VE MADE THE DESERT FLOWER.
THERE ARE SOME PARALLELS WITH THE MORMONS SETTLING IN UTAH, THE JEWS IN ISRAEL; AND THE ONLY THING THAT REALLY SEPARATES ORGANIZED RELIGIONS FROM CULTS, IS JUST TIME AND MONEY AND EFFORT. DO YOU SEE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN THE RAJNEESHEES AND...?
A: No! How many Rolls Royces do the Mormons have? (Laughter) In a five thousand member community we have ninety Rolls Royces, hundreds of other cars, one hundred buses, five planes, the city centrally air-conditioned. Why these people can...?
Q: WELL, YOU HAVE ROLLS ROYCES, THEY HAD WIVES.
A: They cannot have many more wives that we can have. We can defeat anybody. And just look at my commune women. You will not find more juicy women anywhere else. They are just gorgeous!
Q: THE PRECAUTIONS THE COMMUNE HAS TAKEN AGAINST AIDS IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE FOREMOST EFFORTS WORLD-WIDE TO FIGHT THE DISEASE. HOW DID YOU FIRST BECOME AWARE OF IT AND RECOGNIZE THE SERIOUS NATURE OF THAT ILLNESS?
A: I have a medical center here. We have the best doctors possible -- from all over the world, not only from Oregon -- we have FRCS from England, and they are
continuously watching about everything, so that our commune can be protected from any kind of attack. And AIDS is going to be the most tremendous disease that man has ever seen. So it is their research on it, and if they feel there is something I should know they inform me.
And soon we are going to do something about it. We will be the first in the whole world to do something; right now what is being done is that every government is trying to suppress the information about it, because no government want the world to know how many AIDS patients they have. The Oregon government has made such a test that ninety percent of AIDS patients will pass through it.
This is simply criminal, because those ninety people that you have passed and cleared will be spreading the disease; and the disease is such that even by kissing you can give it to another person. It is not necessary that you should make some sexual contact -- just by kissing. Saliva is the carrier. I have told my people to stop kissing, instead of it, rubbing your noses against each other and enjoy it.
And, in fact, these are people -- Eskimos do it already. They are five thousand years backwards, but as far as AIDS is concerned, they are far more superior than us. It is not that they don't know about kissing -- they have seen missionaries kissing, and they laugh at it that what kind of dirty people are these? Because kissing is simply laughed at. They have their ways -- and man is no inventive -- they rub noses, they rub each others' ear lobes. And these are all erotic points, and the women is so erotic her whole body is erotic. There is no need to put her in danger. In India, you will be surprised to know that the ordinary posture of making love -- man on top of woman -- is known as "missionary posture," because it was the first Christian missionaries who were seen in that posture.
Otherwise in India it was insulting. A woman who is softer, more fragile, and a huge animal is doing push ups on the poor woman.
Q: THERE WERE THOSE CHARGES FILED SEVERAL MONTHS AGO REGARDING YOUR CHILDREARING TACTICS HERE IN THE COMMUNE.
COULD YOU JUST BRIEFLY DEAL WITH THAT ISSUE?
A: That is absolutely wrong, and the court has completely cleaned us. The charges were invalid. And now we are going to sue the woman who had put the case for child abuse. She has never been here; she know nothing about what is happening here to the children -- and she puts a case against us. And now she is defeated. This is insulting and disgusting. There is no abuse. Our children are the ones who cannot be abused. In the outside world, children can be abused, are abused. Here it is impossible because we are giving them all the information about sex -- not in a roundabout way. We are giving them actual facts -- that these are the facts of sex and these are the effects of sex, and until you are sexually mature don't get involved in any relationship which will destroy your whole life, may make you retarded, may make you perverted. And when you are of age, the medical center provides every contraceptive, pills. We don't prevent
them, but first let them be ready. If a boy is fourteen and has the energy now to make love -- he has the greatest power to make love between fourteen and twenty-one, and that is the time which is wasted in universities. After that, he is on decline. By the time he gets married after his Ph. D, he will be twenty-eight, twenty-seven; he has already declined. By thirty-five he is becoming older, he loses interest, he make love but he is a spent cartridge.
Q: I PEERED THROUGH THE WINDOW AND WATCHED AS YOUR CAR ARRIVED, AND YOU DANCED WITH YOUR SANNYASINS. WHEN YOU LOOK INTO THEIR EYES, WHAT DO YOU SEE ON THEIR FACES?
A: Just love and nothing else. Great love and great gratitude. I don't think anybody has been loved so much as I have been loved. Jesus has only twelve disciples -- I have one million; and out of one million, ninety percent are women.
So it is really groovey.
Q: ARE YOU AFRAID OF DEATH?
A: Death it not the end of life, it is the culmination of life. It is one of the most beautiful experiences. If you have really loved then only will you experience the beauty of death; if you missed life itself in listening to the sermons in the churches, in reading the Bible, and all kinds of nonsense... if you have missed life itself, you will die in a coma. Before death comes you will become unconscious, so you will miss the experience of death. The people who are living consciously -- and that is my basic teaching, live consciously every moment.
Even while making love, remain conscious and a witness. It is a life... long growth if becoming alert. Then you can die consciously and you can experience death as the ultimate orgasm. It is far bigger than any sexual orgasm. In fact, the difference is not only of quantity, the difference is of quality. It is immeasurable.
Living moment to moment, one learns how to die. beautifully, silently, joyously.
One is going on another adventure. Unknown -- I don't give them any ideas what is going to happen after death, because that is absolutely wrong, destroying. it is like if I loved a movie and I tell you the whole story of the movie, and then tell you that I have brought a ticket for you, go and see. I have destroyed it already; what is the point of seeing it? I give them the ticket, but I don't tell them what is going to happen. That they have to discover on their own.
It is tremendously beautiful because I have lived before and I have died before, and I have died consciously so I know what beauty it is. It is not the end; it is always a new beginning.
In existence nothing dies -- it cannot. You cannot destroy even a small pebble.
You can grind it, but it will be there. Now in powder form. You can throw the powder into the ocean. It will be there, resting somewhere in the bottom of the ocean, but now it is an accepted scientific truth that nothing can be destroyed,
you can only change its form. And if this is so about matter, what to say about consciousness? -- Which is the highest evolution on the earth. Existence cannot be so stupid, so unintelligent to destroy consciousness -- it does not destroy even stones, how it can destroy your soul? But I don't say to anybody believe in me.
I say experiment; and right now you are alive, so don't bother about death. When it comes, it comes. Right now you experiment with life, and be ready: death can come any moment. And particularly in these days where politicians are preparing to destroy the whole humanity, and religions have contributed their contribution through AIDS. That will destroy if politicians cannot, then AIDS will destroy humanity. So we are really living without any tomorrow. Always man has lived without tomorrow, but never with such a crisis. And I say AIDS is a religious disease because its beginning is in homosexuality, and homosexuality was born in monasteries of religions because there they segregated men and women and they did not allow men and women to meet. No women can enter in a monastery where only men live; neither men can go into the nunnery. You are creating the situation for homosexuality. Religions have been teaching for celibacy -- which creates perversions because it is unnatural. It is just as if somebody says to you that unless you stop urinating you will not enter into the kingdom of God. That is just nonsense! But you can find a few idiots who will start making an effort, because if this is the price, they are ready to do it. But what they will do -- they will pretend, they will be hypocrites, and they will find perverted ways from the back door. You cannot go against nature: celibacy is against nature. And all the religions have been preaching celibacy. They are responsible for AIDS. So today the situation is really more dangerous than it has ever been. Tomorrow is more uncertain than it has ever been. So live today with intensity, with totality, with as much consciousness as possible. And I have here one hundred and twelve methods how to increase your consciousness. So if death comes tomorrow, there is no problem -- there will be only my people dying joyously with a smile on their face.
Q: AT YOUR NEWS CONFERENCE A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, YOU INVITED SOMEONE TO ASSASSINATE YOU. IS IT A JOKE? IS IT FEAR OF DEATH BY NATURAL CAUSES, OR IS IT JUST BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE LOGICAL WAY YOU COULD SEE THE END OF YOUR LIFE?
A: Most probably, that will be the logical end of my life. It is a serious joke. And I would prefer it that way, rather than dying on the bed. Ninety-nine percent of people do that. I don't want to belong to that crowd! I would rather like to be assassinated than to die on my bed. And to me there is no problem. I have experienced life. I have tasted all its joys. There is nothing that I have missed. If death come this moment, I will not ask even one more moment to complete my sentence. It is perfectly Okay. In existence, nothing is ever completed. Only in novels, stories begin and end. In life there is no beginning and there is no end.
Abruptly things start and abruptly things finish. There is no preface, there is no appendix, there are no footnotes, nothing. It is always in the middle that the story begins. When I used to read -- for five years I have not been reading anything -- but I loved reading so much that I have to find out ways to make the book more interesting. I would begin in the middle, then go to the end, then come to the beginning. And that was more hilarious, gave more suspense. Life is really hilarious. Just you have to know how to love it. We don't have any God, we don't have any heaven and hell. We have only this moment, so we can pour all our energies into it. And we are doing that. We are celebrating and enjoying and loving and laughing and dancing. In fact, that is what creates hostility toward me. The poor is hostile toward the rich; the sad people are hostile towards those who can laugh and love and dance. The whole world lives in such misery and suffering that they cannot tolerate me. My existence and my people's existence proves them wrong -- and I am not a person just to argue. I give existential argument: my commune is an existential argument to the whole world that you also could have loved and danced and sung and enjoyed, but you have chosen wrong paths, so you go to church, you go to the synagogue. My people don't go there. There is no need for them to anywhere. They don't pray. They are not beggars. And to whom to pray? There is nobody in the sky to pray to. My people meditate. They sit silently doing nothing, they enter into their own silence, enjoy it. The more you enjoy it the deeper and deeper you enter into it.
There come a point where you are exactly at your center of being. And that's what I call enlightenment: a great explosion of luminosity, clarity. All questions disappearing, all doubts dissolved, you have found the answer. The answer is within you -- nobody can supply it. And all these prophets and messiahs have been doing just that: they are suppling you the answer. And borrowed answer is not going to help. Those borrowed answers have made the whole humanity miserable. They have taken their enquiry, they have taken everything away from the people and left them utterly poor. My people are multidimensionally rich.
Q:SO WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM? YEARS FROM NOW WHEN YOU DIE, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE RAJNEESHEES?
A: They will celebrate my death.
Q: AND THEN GO TO THE FOUR WINDS, OR STAY TOGETHER...?
A: That is for them to decide what to do. I am not to decide. Remember, that is the strategy of a politician: he want to even control people after his death. The religious leaders declare their successors, but what is the point in it? The point is dead over-ruling the living... When I am gone, I am gone. And it is a double thing to be understood: when I am gone, I am gone to you -- you are gone to me.
I will be doing whatsoever I want to do; you should do whatsoever you want to
do. Nobody has to control. You cannot control me when I am dead. You cannot tell me what I should do after death. Neither will I say to anybody. I have made you love life, relish every moment. You know the secret. You will not miss me; you don't need any successor. You are my successor -- everyone individually. If you still decide to remain together -- good; if you want to go separate on your own ways, that is even better. But I am not going to dominate you, either alive or dead. To dominate anybody in any way is criminal.
Q: WHAT WILL RAJNEESHPURAM LOOK LIKE IN TEN YEARS? OR WHAT DO YOU WANT IT TO LOOK LIKE IN TEN YEARS?
A: Nothing -- I never think about the future. Future is not my concern at all. To me, time is only now, and space is only here: beyond that I have no concern.
While I am here, I love my people making a desert into an oasis. When I am gone, these people will be here. These are intelligent people, they don't need any instructions. Even now I am not giving them any instructions. They can understand. They know that I love greenery, so they started planting as manu trees possible. They know I love water, so they have made dams, lakes. They love me -- from my shoes up to my hat they make everything for me. I never think about the future. That's why my life is without any tensions -- I never think about the past, so I am not burdened with the past. I never imagine about the future, so I'm not worried about the future. And today is enough unto itself. I enjoy it. When I go to bed, I thank the whole existence that it has been beautiful today, and if by chance I wake up again, we will see.
Q: YOU MADE THE COMMENT THAT THERE CAN NEVER BE PEACE BETWEEN OREGONIANS AND RAJNEESHEES. WHY IS THAT? DO YOU NOT WANT PEACE?
A: I always love peace, but what I had said actually has been misunderstood and it was bound to be because the question was asked, it was not about peace, it was about coexistence. And I said: "Never." Because coexistence is an ugly word, political; it means you are you are an enemy, I am hostile, I am an enemy, but what to do -- we have to live. I am here, you are here, and we have to live somehow, so some compromise is needed. That is coexistence. I don't believe in coexistence. Either I will turn Oregon red, or they are free to turn us into Oregonians. That is peace, not coexistence: One existence. Till that happens, the fight will continue.
Q: WHAT IF OREGONIANS DECIDED JUST TO LEAVE RAJNEESHEES ALONE?
A: I don't think everybody can leave Rajneeshees to live alone we won't allow that!
Q: THE MOST OPEN WOUND IN THE STATE WAS WHEN THE RAJNEESHEES WON THE ELECTION IN WHAT WAS THEN ANTELOPE.
ALTHOUGH IT WAS LEGAL, PEOPLE FELT IT WAS A TAKE-OVER. IS THERE ANY CHANCE THE RAJNEESHEES WOULD EVER PULL OUT OF THE CITY OF RAJNEESH?
A: There is no way, because they are absolutely wrong and we cannot compromise with anything wrong. It is simple democratic process that sannyasins are the majority, and whoever is the majority will rule. If they want to rule, they should create a majority and they can have the rule. There is not problem in it. And one should not be so ugly in behaviour that you don't want to be ruled by the majority, and the minority wants to rule the majority. It is not a take-over. Otherwise, Ronald Reagan has taken over America. If majority supports, then that's a democratic process. And it is not a small majority. There are not more than one dozen people in the dead Antelope, and there are hundreds of sannyasins there. They can bring more people if they want; otherwise, we are going to bring more people.
Q: WILL YOU AND RAJNEESHEES GET INVOLVED IN THE OREGON POLITICAL SYSTEM YOU SO DESPISE, RUN FOR OFFICE?
A: No. There is no political problem for us, and we are not involved in any way with the politics. The sannyasins who are living in Antelope, they were being tortured by the minority. For small legal things that they wanted, they were not allowed. The minority should have thought about it -- it was such a simple thing -- that they were denying the majority things which they legally asked. They are not asking any illegal thing. If they want to make a house, permit will not be given; if they want to purchase a land, permit will not be given. On what grounds? Their children will not be admitted in the school. On what ground? A minority torturing a majority -- that is democracy? And since we have come there, nobody can complain that we have harassed any Oregonian? We invited them they gave taken their children out of school. And still you think that there should be some peace! And many of them have already left; and the others who are still hanging are hanging because there is nobody else except us to purchase their properties, so they can leave. If they cannot be with us, there is no reason for them to be there; but we are going to be there.
Q: CAN WE EXPECT PEOPLE IN RAJNEESHPURAM TO BE RUNNING FOR THE STATE HOUSE OR THE STATE SENATE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS?
A: No. We are not interested in politics. Our interests are our own comforts -- our houses, our lands -- we wanted more lands, we wanted more houses. Our interest was not politics at all; nobody is running for Assembly... You have many idiots to do that in the State, you need not...
Q: YOU'VE RECEIVED SO MUCH OPPOSITION FROM THE POLITICAL ARENA THAT YOU'VE MENTIONED THAT YOU'VE BEATEN THEN AT THEIR OWN GAME BEFORE.
A: No. But if sometimes the need arises, we will do everything to beat them on their own grounds. But we are a small minority, and the majority of millions of people in Oregon is threatened by us -- this is something ridiculous. We should be threatened by them, we are not; they are threatened by us which is simply absurd. That's why I say I have known people from all the countries of the world, but Oregon seems to be special. It seems all the idiots of the world go on being born in Oregon. Strange! For example, they are unnecessarily harassing us. That's what they did in Antelope. If they had not harassed our people, we were not interested in making a mayor or a council. Why we should bother about all that? We are not interested in power or prestige. In fact, it was so difficult for our people to persuade somebody to be mayor, to persuade somebody to be the councillor -- nobody wants. Who wants to get that sort of job? There are so many groovy things going around, and the poor mayor is sitting in the town hall having a meeting about unnecessary things... We are not interested, but if they harass us too much, we can do anything. We will fight in every possible way. We do not want to harass anybody and we do not want to be harassed by anybody.
We are harmless people, we will not do any harm to anybody; but if somebody does harm to us, then we are not Christians -- we are not going to follow Jesus Christ that when somebody hits on you cheek, give him the other cheek. To me that is insulting the other person who as hit you. It is making him subhuman.
You are becoming holier than thou. No. We are just human being and we respect you. If you hit me on one cheek, I will hit you your both cheeks immediately. I just respect you as a human being. You needed it, you deserved it, you earned it.
There is a story in Buddha's life. He said in one sermon that you should forgive a person seven times. One of his disciples stood up and asked, what about the eighth time?
Reasonable question. Buddha was at a loss for a moment. He had never expected that somebody would ask about the eighth time, so he said, OK, Make it seventy- seven. But the man stood up again and he said it makes no difference. What about the seventy-eighth time? I have heard one story of a Christian saint who was hit on one of his cheeks. Obviously, being a follower of Jesus, he gave his other cheek, but the man was also some man of guts -- he hit on the other cheek even more forcibly. And at that moment the saint jumped on the man, clutched his neck and told that now I am going to kill you. But the man said wait, you a
saint and your master has said that give the other cheek. He said: OK, I followed the master, I gave you the other cheek, but now I have no other cheek. Now I am free. And I will teach you a lesson. If they go on harassing us, we enjoy it, so there is nothing serious in it; but we will harass them in our own way.
Q: BUT YOU'RE NOT PLANNING TO RUN FOR GOVERNOR?
A: No we don't need. We don't need; it is far better to harass the governor than to put our governor and then that governor is being harassed by Oregonians. No.
We will do this way; Let the governor be theirs, we will harass him. And we are enjoying the whole game. If they can understand a little sense of humor, all the clouds can disappear within a second. From our side there is no problem at all. Ok? Good
The Last Testament, Vol 1