Chapter 10

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

QUESTION: AFTER YOU LEFT INDIA AND WENT ABROAD, AND WENT THROUGH ALL YOUR EXPERIENCES, HAS YOUR FAITH IN HUMANITY GONE DOWN?

ANSWER: I love humanity more than ever. It has grown. But my conception about the politicians has certainly gone down the drain. They are the enemies of humanity. The humanity has to be freed from the chains of politicians and their presence. Going around the world from one nation to another, I have seen that every nation has been turned into a concentration camp by the politicians. But as far as humanity is concerned, my compassion and my love for it has grown deeper.

Humanity is a victim of power-seekers; of those mad people whose only ambition in life is their ego. The whole politics is nothing but an ego game. If we can live without politicians -- and they are not needed at all -- we can live without the boundaries of nations. Humanity is one. We can live as one world.

Of course functional management will be needed but governments are not needed. And by functional management I mean like the management of the post offices, railways. You don't even know who is the chief of your post offices.

There is no need. He is a functional servant.

The politicians are continuously wasting time of humanity for their own interests. The parliaments of the world are doing nothing. They are gossiping clubs with great fanfare. The presidents and prime ministers have nothing to do but inaugurate stupid things -- bridges, roads -- this kind of thing can be done by anybody. I am an anarchist. I want to see humanity without being governed by anybody, because each government basically means slavery. Education should be such that each person is capable of being responsible for his own actions.

Responsible for order, responsible for others with whom he lives. There is no need of any government.

I am reminded of an old president. He was sick and his friends and his family was consistently persuading him for an holiday, but he will not go for an holiday. They could not understand his resistance. They said, "You are sick, you need rest in the hills, in a better climate, unburdened, with all your political rubbish." The president said, "You do not understand. If I am away for three or four weeks, the whole country will understand I am not needed. I am not here to serve the country but to keep the impression that without me the country will fall apart. But if the country can see that for four weeks, that old guy has been in the mountains and the country is running far more beautifully, I will look useless, futile."

I do not have any respect for any politician in the world. I have much more respect for beggars on the street. They are the real humanity.

When you talked of politicians and political leaders, could this also apply to religion and religious leaders? In our own country we see that it is because of religion that there is so much strife in so many places. And this has been seen elsewhere also.

What you have been told is religion is nothing but politics in disguise. A religious person is not a leader. Because the basic experience of a religious person is that religion is an individual affair. A love affair with existence. It does not need any leaders. Do you need a leader when you fall in love? If you need then, you are in an urgent state of psychiatric help. Religion is love with existence.

There is no need of Hinduism, and their shankaracharyas. This is another kind of hierarchy, bureaucracy, another way of dominating man, enslaving humanity.

There is no need of any pope, any church. But you will be surprised, a few days before, the pope declared that any Catholic Christian, confessing to God directly is committing a sin. He should confess to the priest. The priest is the mediator.

And he is in direct contact with God. Do you see the politics? Even with God you cannot relate directly.

Perhaps some day the painters will start saying to you, you cannot see the sunset directly. It is a sin. You should have a mediator. All religions are a very deep programming for enslaving human spirituality. The politician tries to dominate your body and the religious leader tries to dominate your soul. Nothing is left for you. There has been a conspiracy since the very beginning between the politician and the priest. These are the greatest criminals in the world. And sooner we get rid of them, the better. There is no need to be a Hindu, or a Mohammedan or a Christian, or a Buddhist. To be silent, to be peaceful, to be full of love and compassion needs no adjective to it. Because compassion is compassion only. It is not Christian. It is not Hindu. And to be silent you don't need your scriptures. In fact they are not allowing you to be silent. They go on pouring crap in your mind. What is the need of temples and mosques and gurudwaras and churches and synagogues? The whole existence is the temple of the divine. Wherever you are, if you are in a state of prayer you are in the temple. All these temples and churches are businesses.

I have heard... In a small school, a Christian school, the woman teacher was hammering the fact into the small boys and girls that Jesus Christ is the greatest man in the whole history of man. After one hour she asked whether the message has reached. One boy raised his hand. She asked "Who is the greatest man in the history of man?" The boy said "Abraham Lincoln." He was an American. The woman was shocked. Another hand raised, she asked "Who was the greatest man on the earth?" And the girl said, "Gautam Buddha." She was a Chinese.

The teacher was getting mad. The whole hour wasted and these idiots are still clinging to their own ideas. Then a little boy, a Jew, raised his hand. She could not believe that he will say Jesus Christ, because Jews crucified Jesus Christ as a criminal. But he had to be given a chance to answer. She asked him "Who is the greatest man in the world?" The little Jew said "Jesus Christ, of course." The woman was even more shocked. She could not believe what was happening.

After the class she got hold of the little boy and said, "You are real cute. But please tell me, because I know perfectly well you are a Jew. Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the greatest man on the earth?" The boy said, "You know, I know, everybody knows, that Moses is the greatest man who has been on the earth." The woman said, "Then why you said Jesus Christ?" He said, "Business is business!"

"Religion is a totally different affair. In the heart of my hearts I know who is the greatest man in the history. But you were going to give the trophy for the right answer. I got the trophy, you got the right answer and it makes no difference to my inner heart. I know who is the greatest man. But one has to look after business too."

All religions are simply nothing but businesses, and the most dangerous businesses, because they are exploiting your soul, your integrity, your individuality, your freedom, everything of value. They support the politicians.

The politicians support them -- that's the conspiracy. Adolf Hitler was blessed by the archbishop of Germany that you will be victorious, it is God's intention, and I will pray for you, and the Archbishop of England -- and both are Christians. He was praying that Winston Churchill wins -- that it is the God's will that England will rule over the whole world -- and nobody asked that you are putting God into a trouble. Both represent the same God. And both are praying for enemies, and their victories. This goes on without the wider world understanding a simple fact, that religion has nothing to do with any nations victory. Its work should be the self-realization of man; but no religion bothers about self- realization. Because a self-realized man will be able to see the conspiracy, the business, the power-struggle. All the religions are fighting, for thousands of years. Strange... they all teach love and they all simply kill. Thousands of living people have been burned alive in the name of God.

Politics and religion are the two most ugliest developments, the greatest diseases that have happened to poor humanity. I would like you to be your own government -- conscious, alert -- so there is no need of any government. And I would like you to be your own self, in immediate and direct contact with existence. So there is no need of any pope, any shankaracharya, any imam. If these two businesses -- which are almost like cancer growths -- can be destroyed, humanity can be saved. And if they cannot be destroyed, then they are going to destroy humanity.

Q: WHAT YOU TEACH OR PREACH... WHAT IS THAT? IS THAT A RELIGION OR WHAT IS THAT, AND WHAT ARE YOU... ARE YOU A RELIGIOUS LEADER OR PHILOSOPHICAL LEADER?

A: First thing... I am not a leader. That is a four-letter ugly word... obscene. I am simply a friend. Whatever I have experienced I want to share it. I don't want anybody to imitate me. I don't give any ten commandments to people that you have to do this, and you have not to do this. I simply share my blissfulness, my silence... and leave it to the people. If they feel to be silent, that is their business.

They are not following me, they are following their own intelligence. My appeal is not an order. My appeal is to provoke your intelligence and then you have to follow your intelligence.

Secondly, I am a religious person, but I do not belong to any religion. To be a religious person is a beautiful phenomenon and to belong to any religion is to belong to a crowd of slaves. There are crowds of Hindus. Belonging to the crowd simply means you are losing your individuality. And you will be doing stupid things. Do you know in Hindu religious rituals they drink "Panchamrit." And what is "Panchamrit?" Cow dung, the urine of the cow, milk, curd, ghee...

everything that comes out of the cow is mixed and it becomes nectar.

Panchamrit. Only idiots can call cow dung, nectar. Except Morarji Desai. Because he has fallen even below the idiots. He drinks his own Panchamrit. All religions of the world do stupid things. But because of the crowd, and the tradition, you repress your individual intelligence. You can see this is stupid, but you cannot allow your intelligence because that will make you a rebel, and no religion tolerates rebellious people.

I am just a religious person. To me the word 'religious' means my own experience. My own experience of an eternal being within me which proves to me the eternal being -- of you, of everybody, of the whole existence. My religiousness is a thankfulness to existence because it has given so much, so much love, so much joy, so much blissfulness, so much ecstasy, that we have nothing to repay it, except gratitude. I don't have any God, because that brings again slavery. Freedom is my God.

All the religions have holy scriptures, written by God and they are so full of nonsense, that if they are really written by God, he should have committed suicide long before, just out of being ashamed. I don't have any holy scripture, I don't have a teaching. I have only a sharing. The distinction is very delicate and fine. Teaching becomes dogmatic, solid, creates an imprisonment around you.

And you are expected to believe in it. I am against all belief. I am against all faith.

Because only blind people believe that there is light. Those who have eyes don't believe in light. They know it. Knowing is an experience, not a belief. I simply share my experience with those who are ready to get rid of all kinds of bondages and who are ready to become themselves... not according to me, but according to their own potential. Existence never repeats itself, that's why it never creates another Gautam Buddha, another Jesus Christ, another Krishna. Existence is infinitely creative. Leader wants you to follow him. The teacher wants you to live according to his teachings. These are subtle, psychological exploitations. I am a little bit strange man. I do not want you to follow me. I have never followed anybody. I have simply discovered myself. And I would like everybody in the world to discover himself. And everybody is so unique that if he follows somebody else he will be only an imitator. He will never know his own essential being. If he follows somebody else's teaching, he will remain blind. His beliefs will keep him tethered to the chains given by somebody else. I have my friends, not followers and I want them to become themselves. They will be unique, and this is the greatest opportunity nature has given to you... to be yourself. Not to be anybody else. This is the respect existence has paid to you. Fulfill it. Don't become a hypocrite. Become an authentic, sincere being. Let your own potential blossom. Somebody will may blossom into a rose, somebody in a marigold, somebody in a lotus. And if every man achieves his potentiality, this world will become so beautiful, so valuable. It will not be a crowd. There will not be any crowd at all. There will be only unique individuals. If you do not do this, you are betraying existence, and betraying your own self. That is the only sin I know of.

To betray yourself.

Q: IF THIS IS SO, WHY DO YOU CALL YOURSELF "BHAGWAN?" WHY DO YOUR FRIENDS CALL YOU "BHAGWAN?" OR EVEN "ACHARYA," WHICH MEANS A TEACHER?

A: There are people who call me the devil. There are people who call me the anti- christ, there are people who call me the satan. I cannot prevent them. It is their freedom, what they want to call me. There are people who love me and call me Bhagwan, but Bhagwan does not mean God. We have called Gautam Buddha, Bhagwan, who has absolutely denied the existence of God. We have called Mahavir, Bhagwan, who does not believe in God. Bhagwan must have some other meaning too. And the meaning is 'the blessed one', the one who has arrived. And I say to you, I have arrived. I am the blessed one, and I would like you also to be the blessed one.

But the world is big and I cannot go after everybody, telling them what to call me. And I cannot prevent anybody calling me anything. As far as I am concerned, I don't have any name. Neither you have any name. We are born without any names, but just for utilitarian purposes, names are needed. They are not our reality. We are nameless existence. The rose does not know that its name is rose. You have given it a name. But whether you give it a name or not, a rose is a rose is a rose. So it is your freedom... whatever you want to call me, you can call me. But I don't have any name. I have the state of blessedness; which is the meaning of Bhagwan. So I don't have any objection against it.

Q: WHICH COUNTRY DO YOU LIKE BEST, AND WHICH WORST AND WHERE DOES INDIA STAND IN THIS?

A: I hate the boundaries which make countries. I love the whole earth. It is all the same humanity. The colors may be different, the languages may be different, but the inner reality is the same. I love the whole earth, and I do not believe in countries.

Q: COULD YOU TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR HEALTH, YOUR BACK TROUBLE AND ALL. IS IT BECAUSE OF THE TREATMENT YOU GOT IN AMERICA IN THE PRESENT?

A: No, my health is perfectly good, and in American prisons they were very much afraid that if something happens to me, they will be condemned throughout the world. In the first prison, the jailer came to me on the second day and he said, "In the jail, you are the most secure person, because the whole eyes of the world, news media, millions of people continuously phoning -- we had to arrange new phones, and thousands of flowers are coming, and instructions are being given to us that nothing happens. If any problem arises to you, we will be condemned for it." And whenever they changed the jails, because in twelve days I had the great opportunity of visiting five jails, each jailer giving my charge to the other jailer whispered in his ears that "Take care. This man is an intellectual, loved by millions of people around the world. Nothing should happen to him.

Otherwise we are condemned."

They never touched my body. It was difficult for them to make arrangements for my food because I must have been their first vegetarian prisoner, but they took every effort to make me comfortable. I have nothing to say against the prisons, the jailers, the staff. And every jail had put me in the hospital ward, so more care can be taken. The doctor was seeing me every day, twice -- the nurses were attending me, I was enjoying the journey. Those twelve days were beautiful. My health has not suffered and when I came out of jail, the first thing the jailer said to me, "You are the first man who is looking better." Because people when they come to jail look better, when they go out, they look like ruins. "When you had come, you were looking better, but now you are looking perfect. What is the secret?"

I said, "My secret is, from the outside America was afraid that if anything even by chance happens to me they will be responsible, because they had arrested me without any arrest warrant. They had arrested me without showing me any cause. They had arrested me and did not allow me to contact my attorneys. So they were in a very confused state. They knew I had not committed any crime, and if something happens to me, their whole image of being a democracy will be spoiled. And secondly, I had never been so absolutely alone for twenty-four hours and there was nothing else just to be within myself. So those twelve days were a continuous meditation. Those twelve days were for others, that I am jailed -- for me those twelve days were of immense freedom, because I was in Samadhi.

I used the opportunity. And this is one of my messages -- Make the best out of the worst.

Q: BUT AS YOU SAID, FOR THE OUTSIDERS IT SEEMED YOU WERE IN JAIL AND I AM SURE SOME OF YOUR FOLLOWERS, AND ALL PEOPLE OVER HERE, WERE UPSET WHEN THEY SAW YOU IN CHAINS IN PHOTOGRAPHS. THAT WAS NOT KEEPING YOU AND TREATING YOU WITH DIGNITY.

A: Handcuffs on my hands, chains on my feet don't touch me. For the first time what I have been saying my whole life became a reality. That what happens to the body, does not happen to you. It was a new experience, and I am always an explorer. Any new experience, even if for it I am to go to hell, I am ready.

Because nothing can touch my inner being. It is beyond what happens to the body. Even if they had killed me, I would have died as peacefully, as joyously as any Gautam Buddha. And it was not my own experience, it was felt by the jail authorities. When I left the jail, the old jailers eyes were full of tears. He said, "I have had in my life thousands of prisoners, and I may have many more in the coming years, but we will miss you. You were totally different. I don't really want you to leave the jail, because tomorrow morning, when I will see your cell empty, it will hurt."

"I have never felt," he said, "for anybody. I have always felt that it is good somebody is freed. But as far as you are concerned, I would love that you remain here. Make this jail your commune."

Q: SO WHAT WOULD YOU MAKE YOUR COMMUNE NEXT, COULD YOU TELL US THAT? WHAT PLACE?

A: No, I am not going to make any commune myself. My sannyasins are mature enough now, and I have given them the taste what a commune can be, and already many communes are springing up. In different parts of the world there are many communes already. Thousands of sannyasins are living together. Now my strategy of work is going to be totally different. Sannyasins have to create the commune, take the responsibility. I will be visiting as a guest, because now I consider the whole earth my commune, and I will be going continuously around the earth. And whenever I will feel tired, then I will be here in Bombay. Suresh Prakash here is my jailer.

Q: WOULD YOU BE GOING TO POONA ALSO? THAT IS AFTER ALL YOUR FIRST MAJOR COMMUNE?

A: No.

Q: I CAN SAY YOU ARE NOT GOING TO POONA?

A: I am not going to Poona because sannyasins from Poona can come here very easily. There is no point for me to go. And the people of Poona are so orthodox, so prejudiced, so fanatic. It was not a coincidence that it was a man from Poona who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi. Only Poona was capable to do that. Poona tried to assassinate me too. I am not going to Poona. It is a dead city. Only corpses are moving. Hindu corpses. My people are there, they can come here. I am so close. If they want to meet me together I can go to Kandala, to Lonavala, to anywhere, but not to Poona!

Q: WE'VE ALWAYS BEEN CURIOUS ABOUT THESE ROLLS ROYCES OF YOURS. I MEAN SO MUCH HAS BEEN WRITTEN INCLUDING BY MYSELF ABOUT THEM. SO I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW THE POINT BEHIND IT, SO MANY ROLLS ROYCES?

A: In fact I don't have even a Honda! I am hoping some friend will present me a Honda. Those ninety-three Rolls Royces were presented by different friends from different parts of the world. But because I don't possess anything, they were given to the commune. I have not taken a single Rolls Royce from there. I have never seen all those ninety-three Rolls Royces together. Only for half an hour when I was going to the meetings, coming back to my home, they provided me a Rolls Royce. Now sitting inside it does not matter what color the car has -- it may matter to other people -- they may be giving me every day the same Rolls Royce, I don't know. But the question arises in many peoples' mind and it has a great implication. You are not interested in my realization, you are not interested in the eternity of the soul, you are not interested in the art of love, you are interested in Rolls Royces. That shows the poverty of the people and their minds.

And that also shows their ambition.

Just before I left America, one bishop was continuously preaching to his congregation against my Rolls Royces. And before I was leaving, I received a letter from the same bishop, that now Bhagwan, you are going back, at least you can donate one Rolls Royce to my church. Poverty of the mind, ambition of the mind, jealousy of the mind is hiding behind that question. It is not your question, it is the question of all poor people, ambitious people, who are carrying that in their mind. They would have loved to see me naked, standing in the snow and then they would have worshiped me.

The whole world is against me because they are jealous of me -- because I live comfortably and I want the whole world to live comfortably -- that is part of my mission to make it clear that poverty is not religion, that if we can make the whole world luxurious there will be thousands of Gautam Buddhas blossoming, because when you have everything, then the only search left is for your own self.

Just my mother has come yesterday and she told me about a Digamber Jaina monk in Sagar in Madhya Pradesh. Jainism is the only religion that allows a certain kind of suicide, as spirituality. It calls it `santara.' One Jaina monk in Sagar is giving `santara' to people. This is something new. In the past people have taken `santara' but it is a long journey. You have to stop eating -- it takes almost ninety days for a person to die. And this Jaina monk is Sagar has found a more contemporary method -- `santara' can be accomplished in eight days, and many idiots are reaching to him, asking for `santara.' The government is worried with me. Their spies are all around the house. The parliaments are discussing about me and nobody is worried about this man who is really helping people to commit suicide. What he is doing, he puts the man in a small room, naked, reduces his food, within two days fast -- he cuts half the food first day, by the second day the whole food is gone; then he starts cutting water -- within two days water is gone. After the fourth day, he had to put four wrestlers around the man because he wants to escape. He realizes what is happening. He is thirsty, he is hungry -- each part of his body is crying for food, his mind is going mad. He starts shouting that I don't want `santara' but it is too late. The Jainas have made around the temple where the great monk is staying -- they sing loudly, they make musical instruments, play loudly, so nobody can hear what that man is saying inside. And his clothes have been taken so he cannot come out. And those four wrestlers are there, putting him down in his bed, not allowing him to escape. Within eight days the man is dead. Those four days, the last days, are sheer agony. This is butchery. This is not `santara.' But because of this, that Jaina monk is becoming famous and more and more idiots are coming, because after `santara' you go directly to `moksha.' To the ultimate goal of existence. Whether you want to go or not, is not the question. Once you have expressed the desire, he manages to send to send you to moksha. Those four wrestlers are continuously holding him inside so he does not run out naked and shout that "I don't want to die, I don't want any moksha. Just let me go my home." They allow the doors to be opened only when he is dead. Then a great procession -- and his body is not burned on ordinary wood. It is burned on sandalwood, because he has achieved the ultimate.

Now this man is a murderer. And he has murdered few people, and he is going to murder; and the whole government is silent, because it doesn't matter to them.

In fact, perhaps the president and the prime ministers will go and pay their respects to the murderer because he has discovered a short-cut to `santara.' I am not in favor of committing suicide, slowly or fast. And I am not in favor of poverty. I want humanity to be rich, outwardly, and also inwardly. And I don't see there is any contradiction. The inward and the outward are just like two wings. They both can help each other.

But I have never possessed any Rolls Royce. They were possessed by the commune. Now it was their love, their gratitude, that they never wanted those cars to be used by others. And there was no need, because the commune had five hundred other cars, one hundred buses, five airplanes. I had asked the commune that there is no need for ninety-three Rolls Royces, the same model, just the colors are different. You can keep one or two cars for me, and you can use. But no sannyasin was ready to use. They said, "We have enough cars, enough busses, enough airplanes, and nowhere to go." Nobody liked to go out of commune. And the commune was in a desert of one hundred twenty-six square miles. The closest American town was twenty miles away, and nobody wanted to go anywhere, because we were living in an oasis -- starting in meditation in the morning, then listening to me, then going to work as a joy. Five thousand people eating together was something to be seen. And when there was world festival there were twenty thousand people eating together, under one roof. And somebody was playing on the guitar. And somebody was dancing. And after the sunset when the work time was over, people have taken their supper, they will dance in the streets till the middle of the night, sing songs of beauty and love. It was such a rejoicing, that nobody wanted to go out. Finally we had to sell those five hundred cars, because nobody was using them. We had to sell four aeroplanes, because nobody was using them. We had created a dream into a reality, and it was so sweet, so unbelievable that nobody wanted to miss a single moment. But I had given those cars to the commune. Thousands of other presents had come to me. They were all given to the commune. I don't possess anything, except the commune. I don't possess anything, except myself. That is my only possession and my only paradise.

Any other question?

Q: NO, THANK YOU, THAT'S ENOUGH.