A Song Untouched by Time

The first question:

THE IDEAL AS SUCH CORRUPTS. Whatsoever the ideal, it is a calamity, it is a great disease to be avoided. It is the ideal that has been driving humanity neurotic. The moment you start thinking in terms of ideals, you are condemned. Then you are always falling short of it, then you are never okay; and guilt arises and you start feeling you are not worthy, that you are worthless. And the moment a man starts thinking he is worthless, he becomes worthless - because you are that which you think you are. AS A MAN THINKETH, SO HE BECOMES.

All ideals are perfectionist, they demand perfection - hence they are all inhuman. Man is not perfect.

Nothing is perfect. Nothing can be perfect, BECAUSE only in imperfection is there growth. The perfect means the dead; the perfect means the perfectly dead - the absolutely dead.

So let me say to you: Even God is not perfect, cannot be, otherwise He will be a dead God. Only in imperfection is there a possibility to evolve, to grow. Only in imperfection is there future. Perfection consists only of the past - then there is no future. If God is perfect, then what is going to happen to Him? Nothing is going to happen. All that had to happen has already happened. All that He was destined to become, He has become - there is no future. Then the God is a graveyard. Then He is not a tree blooming, and He is not a river flowing.

Even God is not perfect, so how can man be perfect? Everything that lives is imperfect, because life is possible only through imperfection. Imperfection is a great blessing. Feel blessed that you are imperfect. Imperfection means your circle is not complete, something is still open. You have a future, you have a possibility.

Imperfection is a promise, a hope. Imperfection carries potentiality; all has not yet become actual, something is still in the seed. You can remain excited. Something tremendously new is going to happen to you, something unknown, unfamiliar; something unexpected you can still expect. That's what life is.

So the first thing to be understood is: All ideals are perfectionist. Hence, ALL ideals are inhuman.

And all ideals cripple and paralyze you. All ideals create a kind of subtle bondage around you, they imprison you. The really free man has no ideals.

So, to live in the present is not an ideal, remember. If you make an ideal out of it you have missed the point. To live in the present can be rightly translated as: to live without ideals. That is the meaning of living in the present. To live in the present means to live without ideals, to just live herenow and remain open and remain ready - whatsoever the future brings, remain always welcoming and receptive. don't force the future in a certain way, in a certain direction. Let it happen.

To be in the present is not an ideal. But I understand your question. There are people who have made it an ideal. It happens because we have become so accustomed to transforming everything into a neurosis, so that even if elixir is given to you, you will transform it into poison. You know only one thing: how to transform everything into a poison.

For example, Buddha says: Through desire there is misery - so if you become desireless, there will be no misery.

Now, this is a simple fact, stating a simple truth. What happened? People started creating a new desire: to be desireless. This is how you transform every truth into falsehood.

Buddha is saying: To be in desire is to be miserable. He is not saying desire about what: desire as such creates misery - because in desire you start moving from the present, you start thinking of the future. You start thinking of dreams - you are going to do this, and this is going to happen; and if this happens you will be happy, and if that happens you will be very very miserable. The moment you start dreaming and desiring you have missed contact with life; you disconnected. You are no more living in those moments of desire. Those moments of desiring are death moments. Life has stopped flowing. You are frozen.

Whenever you are in desire you are not alive. Life and desire can't exist together. They are two gestalts, you can have only one at one time. If you move into desire, life disappears; if you are living, desire disappears.

Have you not seen in some psychology books a certain picture of an old woman? And in the same picture, in those same lines, is hidden a beautiful young woman - both are there. But if you look at the old woman, then you cannot see the young woman. If you look at the young woman, then suddenly the old woman disappears. They are BOTH there in the same lines, but you can see only one at a time. Your gestalt changes. When you are looking at the young face, then those lines are making a new pattern. Because of this pattern, the other pattern cannot be seen. When you start seeing the old woman, the young woman recedes back; because of the old woman's pattern, you cannot see the new woman's pattern. You cannot see both together. Because you cannot see both together, whenever you are with one the other becomes non-existential to you. And you know both are there; still you cannot see.

Exactly the same is the case with desire and life. If you desire, life is no more there; you stop living.

The same energy becomes desire, so no more energy is available to live. When you start living, desire disappears because the same energy has become life; you cannot desire any more.

Alive moments are desireless moments. Desireless moments are alive moments. It is a simple statement about life's patterns, gestalts.

But what happened? People listened to Buddha and they thought, "He must be right. He says. 'With desire there is misery,' So now we will desire desirelessness. How to attain desirelessness.?" Now they are ready to go on another journey of desire. Just the OBJECT of desire has changed. first they were thinking how to have more money, how to have more power, how to go to New Delhi, Washington, London, Moscow; now, their goal has changed - how to attain NIRVANA, MOKSHA, God, desirelessness.

But the object is there, and with the object the desire ii there. They have committed something very absurd. They missed the point. Buddha is not saying to create a new desire. Buddha is simply saying: Understand desire. Look into desire and you will find misery. Once this understanding has penetrated deep into your being, that desire is misery, then the problem has disappeared. Then you don't desire at all. And, when you don't desire, there is desirelessness.

Desirelessness cannot be desired; MOKSHA cannot be desired; God cannot be desired. If you desire, God has become an object of lust. You are again in the same trap - with a new label, but the disease is the same. Maybe the skin is new, but the wine is old.

The same is happening in the modern world. And this, too, is happening because of Zen. Zen says:

Be herenow, because that is the only way to be here - that is the only way to be. Now is the only moment there is! How can you be in the future? The future is not yet; how can you be in the future?

You can only think. That will be just your mind game. How can you be in the past? The past has disappeared. You can only be in the memory - memory, imagination. But both are non-existential.

To exist means to be herenow. These trees exist, you only pretend. Rocks exist, you only pretend.

Stars exist, you only pretend.

Zen has a simple message. It says: See into life - only the present is true. Future is imagination, past is memory. Memory is nothing but a taped record in the mind. And imagination is nothing but a projection through the memory, a desire coming out of the past - to have the same pleasures again and again, or to avoid the old sufferings. And meanwhile the present moment is passing by. Life is slipping out of your hands.

Zen is very pragmatic, very existential. The message is very simple: Be here, and be now.

Now, you can create an ideal out of it. You can jump upon the idea. YOu say, "Right! Now I will be here and now. I will try, I will not leave any stone unturned; I will do my best. I will be here and now. I will practise, I will meditate, I will sit in zazen, but I HAVE to be here and now!" Now you are creating an ideal out of a simple fact which was a statement, it was a truism.

You are making an ideal. Now you are going to be in difficulty. Again and again you will find the mind has slipped into the past; again and again you will find the mind has slipped into the future. You will catch hold of it, you will bring it back to the present. Again it is slipping. Again you are bringing it to the present. In fact, your NOW is not now! It is going to happen somewhere in the future when you have practised how to live now! Your present is also not present. The present of your ideal cannot be present. All ideals are in the future.

"How to live in the present?" you are asking. Zen says there IS NO other way to live! And you ask, "How to live?" Zen says THERE IS NO OTHER WAY AT ALL! How are you managing not to live in the present? And you ask, "How to live in the present? Should I meditate, should I do this and that?

Should I do a mantra, should I close my eyes? Should I leave my wife and children, because they lead me into the future - I have to think about them? Should I go to the Himalayas?" But these are all future ideas! "Should I go to the Himalayas?" - the Himalayas is in the fu-ture. "Should I attain to satori?" - this is again the future. Rather than understanding, you immediately create desire.

You ask:

If you make it an ideal, it is inhuman AND impossible. And it will destroy you. All ideals are destructive, and all idealists are the poisoners of humanity. Beware of them!

Live a simple, ordinary life - a day to day existence. Feeling hungry, eat; feeling sleepy, sleep; feeling loving, love. Don't hanker for anything perfect. Perfection is impossible. And don't start creating a new ideal out of this simple fact.

For example, Zen Masters say, "How marvellous! I carry fuel, I draw water from the well." Now this is a simple statement of a fact. The Master is carrying wood from the forest and he says, "How marvellous! This moment - this precious moment - the sun rising, the birds singing, the green all around, the flowers blooming, the fragrance of grass in the air, and I am carrying wood to the ashram. How wonderful! How beautiful this moment, this diamond-like moment!"

Now you can make an ideal out of it. You may not be a woodcutter. You may be a professor in the university. You renounce your post; you say, "I am going to be a woodcutter - I will go to the forest.

I will cut wood and I will carry fuel. And I'm going to feel 'How wonderful!""

Now you will miss. Now you will go to the forest, you will cut wood, but you will miss the whole point.

Cutting wood you will be thinking, "When is it going to happen? It has not happened yet. That feeling has not yet exploded - How wondrous!" And you are waiting all around, and you look at the sun, and you look at the trees, but they look like ordinary trees, and the sun is ordinary, and the birds - the same old, stupid birds chattering. And, yes, the grass is green, but so what! - grass has always been green. You know all the poetry about grass, you are a professor; and you know all the great paintings, so what is new? You look all around and it is not happening. And you go on chopping wood. And you have never chopped wood; you start feeling tired. You look all around and there seems to be no wonder happening. And you say, "How miserable! Nothing is happening! This Zen Master cheated deceived me. What is there to call wondrous?"

No, you miss the point. The Master has not cheated you. He is not saying you should become a woodcutter. Remain a professor! People are as beautiful as trees. Young people are as beautiful as young grass. Go on teaching! Teaching is AS wondrous as carrying fuel. The Master was simply saying that whatsoever you are doing, if you are utterly there, the mind not wavering anywhere else...

then suddenly the beauty is there, the benediction is there. The benediction is part of being present.

But don't make an ideal out of it! Thousands of people renounced their homes and became Buddhist monks when Buddha walked and he talked about "How wondrous!" But I don't think they arrived anywhere. They renounced the world, but it was a desire. Buddha had renounced the world for a totally different reason: the desire had been understood. See the point!

Buddha renounced the world seeing the futility of desire. Seeing that desire cannot lead anywhere - it leads into misery and hell again and again - seeing it there, seeing the whole mechanism of it, seeing the repetitious wheel of many lives, seeing that all that you can do you have done, but where is bliss? where is equilibrium? where is that benediction? where is real life?... seeing that not even for a single moment has that happened, he renounced the world.

That renunciation came out of understanding. When he renounced the world and became a Buddha... and naturally he had great grace, great joy around him, great silence, so wherever he moved many people became desirous. They saw this man walking: "So this man has arrived, so THIS is the way to arrive." They are not yet finished with desire. They have created a new desire.

Looking at Buddha they have become LUSTFUL for Buddhahood!

It is almost the same. You see a Cadillac car passing by, and a desire arises - you should own it. It is nothing different! You see a Buddha passing by, and a desire arises - "Why should not I have this grace? Why should not I have this calm, quiet silence? Why should not I be so joyful as Buddha IS?

Why not I?" Desire has arisen. It is the same desire!

Seeing a beautiful woman pass by with somebody else - somebody else's wife - and a desire starts lingering inside: "Why should not I have a beautiful wife like that?" It is the same game played on different planes, in different ways. But the trick is the same.

So seeing a Buddha, many people became desirous. And they renounced, but they renounced for a wrong reason. Buddha's renunciation was a natural outgrowth of understanding. Their renunciation is part of the same desire. so it happens many times that they are working hard, but waiting from the corner of the eye: "When is it going to happen?"

I have heard these two stories:

A monk said to Master Seijo. "I am told that a Buddha who lived in ancient times sat in meditation for ten cycles of existence and still could not realize the truth of liberation. Why was this so?"

Seijo answered him, "Your question is self-explanatory."

Again, the monk persisted, "Since the Buddha meditated, why couldn't he attain Buddhahood?"

Seijo replied, "Because he was a Buddha."

Now this is an utterly beautiful answer, and true too. Not only beautiful, but true too. Seijo makes a very shocking statement; he says, "Because he was a Buddha!" When you are a Buddha and trying to become a Buddha, you are going to fail. Buddhahood is not a goal, it is a recognition. It is not something that is going to happen in the future; it is not something that you have to prepare for. It is something that is already there - only recognition is missing!

Another story and you will understand better:

An old Zen story tells of a pilgrim who mounted his horse and crossed formidable mountains and swift rivers seeking a famous wise man in order to ask him how to find true enlightenment. After months of searching, the pilgrim located the teacher in a cave. The Master listened to the question and said nothing. The seeker waited.

Finally, after hours of silence, the Master looked at the steed on which the pilgrim had arrived, and asked the pilgrim why he was not looking for a horse instead of enlightenment.

The pilgrim responded that obviously he already had a horse. The Master smiled, and retreated into his cave.

Very indicative! The Master said, "Why don't you search for a horse? Why do you bother about Buddhahood?" And the man said, "What nonsense are you talking about? The horse is already with me. I have got the horse! Why should I seek it?" And the Master didn't say anything - he simply smiled and retreated into his cave. Finished! He had given the answer.

You are a Buddha. You cannot search for it. That is the great declaration of all the great religions - that you are gods and goddesses in disguise, incognito. You have forgotten your own identity, you don't know who you are. Hence all seeking. And sometimes you start seeking that which you are already. Then it is impossible to find... then frustration.

Don't start seeking, just start looking at what is the case. Looking into the reality as it is, is enough.

That is the meaning of Zen people when they say "Be herenow" - look into reality. Nothing is missing, all is already here. Listening to it, please avoid creating an ideal; otherwise your ideal will mislead you.

Second thing. You say: IT RESULTS IN A DISEASED RATHER THAN A GRACEFUL PRESENT.

It does not even result in a diseased present - because whenever the present is there, it is graceful.

It cannot be diseased. That has never happened; it cannot happen in the very nature of things.

The present by its very nature is never ill, never sick. It is always the future which brings the sickness, the nausea, disturbance, distraction. No, if you make an ideal of living in the present, then it will not give you a diseased present; no, it will give you another future. And the future is always ill because the future always creates tension. The future is never relaxation.

The future is there calling you: "Do this, do that. Fulfill me." With great expectations and hopes you move towards it. Naturally, much frustration is going to happen - because THE FUTURE NEVER COMES, SO it can NEVER be fulfilled. The tomorrow never comes - so you can hope for tomorrow, but tomorrow when it turns up will be today. and you don't know how to live today, so again you will miss and there will be frustration, more and more. The more you desire, the more you hope, the more you will be frustrated. Hence, the future brings illness, disease.

Remember, with an ideal the present is completely forgotten. It may even be the ideal to live in the present, but any ideal as such distracts you from the present. And it is not going to happen in a diseased present rather than a graceful present, because I have never heard about a diseased present. ALL moments of present are simply graceful.

You don't understand. Graceful present does not know anything of past, future or present. How can it integrate them? - it does not know anything about them. The whole division disappears. When you are in the present, there is no past, no future - and, of course, when there is no past, no future, how can there be present? Let it be understood! The present can exist only between past and future, just in the middle of it. It is a middle term. Drop past, drop future - where can you put your present? It disappears.

The REAL present cannot even be called present... it is eternity, it is timelessness.

So don't say that it will be a synthesis - a graceful integration. Integration of what? The past is not! How can you integrate something which is not? And the future is not! How can you integrate something which is not? And because of the past and the future, the illusion of the present is created. How can you integrate an illusion? No, they simply disappear, they are not found any more.

And when they are not found, there is grace, because divisions disappear. Conflicts, antagonisms in your being, splits in your being disappear - suddenly you are harmonious, you are one. You start humming in a unison. A song arises out of you which knows nothing of the past and nothing of the future, and nothing of the present either! A song untouched by time. That's why all the old scriptures say God is beyond time, SAMADHI is beyond time.

The second question:

FIRST: WHAT IS THE PATH TO ETERNAL LIGHT? There is no path. Reality is absolutely pathless.

If you start seeking for a path, you are looking for a goal. The path presupposes the goal. Without the goal you cannot have a path. The goal presupposes a desiring mind, and the desiring mind is the world - the world of darkness, misery, hell.

Don't ask about the path. Zen is the pathless path; hence, the paradox.

You ask: WHAT IS THE PATH TO ETERNAL LIGHT?

Let me tell you two anecdotes:

We never leave the Way for a moment, says Zen, and what we can leave is not the Way. Morning and evening, living and dying, we can never go from it an inch or a second. In China was the brilliant Zen Master, Joshu, and one day a monk asked him, "What is it, the Way?"

"Outside the fence there," said Joshu immediately. "The way? Oh yes, there it is, outside the fence."

But from the monk's side, "Why no, that's not what I am asking about, that little way outside the fence." The monk says, "What is it, the Great Way, I mean?"

He means the Great Way of the universe, what you mean by 'the path to eternal light'. He says, "I am not talking about this small way beyond the fence. Don't talk stupidly! I am talking about the Great Way, Tao, Dhamma. I am talking about the Way to God!"

Now Joshu says: "The great way is the one leading to the capital."

The superhighway. Joshu is joking, but with great compassion in it. He is saying, "Don't ask about the Way, because ALL ways lead astray." The way means you are going somewhere else; you are leaving the place where you are - and God is there! And truth is THERE where you are; and you are going astray, you are going away. And you are asking for a very speedy method to attain to the goal. And the goal you have never missed for a single moment.

Hence they say:

We never leave the Way for a moment. What we can leave is not the Way. Morning and evening, living and dying, we can never go from it an inch or a second.

It is impossible to go away from God. Many people come to me and they ask, "Where to find God?"

And I ask them, "Where have you lost Him? Where did you lose contact? Where?" They look a little puzzled.

You cannot leave God. God is your life. You breathe in Him, your heart beats in Him, your pulse pulsates in Him. You are born in Him and you will die in Him. How can you leave Him? It is impossible to leave God. The moment you leave God you are no more alive - God is life.

But the word creates the problem. That's why I say it is better to use the word 'Life' with a capital L than 'God', because then you will not ask the foolish question: "What is the Way to Life?" - mm? - it will look absurd. You can ask the foolish question: "What is the way to God, eternal light?" And what is happening here? Can't you see everything is eternal? This moment eternity is contained in it?

The whole that has been and the whole that will ever be is contained in this moment? What more eternity do you want?

Don't be greedy. And this greed will create trouble for you. It will create eternal anxiety.

You ask: WHAT IS THE PATH TO ETERNAL LIGHT?

There is no darkness! EVEN DARKNESS IS LIGHT; YOU just need to have eyes to see - even darkness is light. Don't you see the owls in the night seeing perfectly well? They have eyes to see.

There was one Indian mystic, the founder of a system of philosophy, Vashishta. He has many names; Indians give many names to people they love. One name is tremendously significant. That name is: OULUKYA - The Owl. Looks very strange to call a great mystic The Owl. Another name of Vashishta is: OULUKYA DARSHAN - the philosophy of The Owl. Why? Why is this man known as The Owl.

He is known as The Owl because even in darkness he could see light; even in the world, God; even in death, the eternal; even in the moment, the infinite; even in the body, the bodiless, even in misery, the blissful. Because he could see so deep, hence the symbolic name: Oulukya - The Owl.

I love that name. We have given very beautiful names to Buddha, to Mahavir, but nothing to compare - this is unique: The Owl. Yes, a man of understanding becomes an owl. Even in the negative he can see the positive. Then the world is no more the world, it becomes divine. Then the ordinary is no more the ordinary, it becomes luminous with the extraordinary. Then very ordinary moments are wondrous, mysterious.

So don't look somewhere far away in the distant, and don't ask "What is the path to eternal light?"

The eternal light is herenow. Where are you going? If you go anywhere, you will be going away from this eternal light. The eternal light is in YOU! Right this moment you are at the source! This has to be hammered into you as many times as possible - that you are right now at the very source and you have never left it for a single moment. Just recognize it, just open your eyes and see it!

In ancient India, there was one of Buddha's disciples, Vasubandhu. He was known to be a very very holy man. He was honoured by all for his strict observance of discipline, long hours of prayer, purity and renunciation.

He was a great ascetic - the greatest amongst Buddha's disciples.

To remove this one-sided view, the patriarch Gayata asked one of the disciples of Vasubandhu...

... this Gayata was one of the enlightened disciples of Buddha. This Gayata was not as well- known as Vasubandhu, because people become interested in foolish things. Who bothers about enlightenment? If you become enlightened, no newspaper is going to cover it. If you murder somebody, certainly you will be covered. If you become a great ascetic - if you torture your body, every morning you whip yourself - then you are going to become headline news.

So Vasubandhu was known very much as the greatest holy man - and he was not yet enlightened.

Gayata was not known; only known to a few people who could understand and who could see.

Gayata wanted to remove this one-sided view of Vasubandhu - this sadistic, masochistic approach towards life. He wanted to make him alert that "You are just doing unnecessary things. God is already there! You need not starve yourself. You can feed yourself - you will not miss God. God is not against food. You can sleep well and you will not miss God; sleep is perfectly spiritual. And you can wear clothes when it is cold, and you can sit under the shade when it is hot - and this will be respectful towards the God that is abiding in you. In fact, this is disrespectful when the God wants to come under the shade and you go on standing in the heat because you are an ascetic - and the God wants to come in! And the God goes on saying 'Vasubandhu, find a shelter.' But how can you find? - this has become an ego trip. And the God says, 'I'm feeling very hungry, Vasubandhu.' But you say, 'Keep quiet! You Satan, keep quiet! You Devil, don't come in my way and don't disturb me.

I am an ascetic and today is my fasting day.""

Many times you misunderstand God's voice as the Devil's. Always remember: the natural is divine.

Never call it devilish. Almost always you call it devilish. The natural is divine; the unnatural is devilish.

Gayata must have watched it happening again and again and he must have become concerned:

"This poor man is becoming by and by more famous" - and the more famous you become, the more difficult it becomes to get down from your trip.

So Gayata asked one of the disciples of Vasubandhu...

Vasubandhu had many disciples. Naturally, whenever you do something strange, something stupid, you will find disciples. If you are very sane, it is very difficult to find disciples, very very difficult. If you do something insane, people become interested, they become intrigued.

He asked one of the disciples of Vasubandhu, "Will he reach Buddhahood by these austerities and earnest discipline?"

The disciple answered, "With such devotion, how could our teacher not attain Buddhahood?"

Gayata said, "Your teacher is far from the Way. However much and however long he does these practices, it is all only an empty fancy."

The disciple asked, "Then by what practice does Your Holiness acquire merit, that you criticize our teacher?"

The patriarch Gayata replied, "I neither seek the Way nor fall into contrary views, neither humbly worship the Buddha nor become proud, neither practise long meditations nor become neglectful, neither fast nor overeat. i am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied, there is no desire in my mind. THIS IS WHAT IS CALLED THE WAY."

He is saying here plainly that it is not a question of seeking the Way, since we already have it, but that perfection is merely to ALLOW it.

Remember this parable. Gayata says, "I don't go to the extremes, I remain in the middle. I don't fast, I don't eat too much. I don't move to the extreme, to the excess; I remain calm and quiet and cool in the middle. I am not proud, I am not humble." A tremendously beautiful statement: "I am not proud, I am not humble."

The humble man is just the proud man standing upside down. Humbleness is a form of arrogance, upside down, in the reverse order, in the reverse gear - but it is the same car. The car has not changed. First you want to prove to the world that "I am somebody." Then one day you start proving that "I am nobody." But you are still proving, you still continue proving that "I am nobody."

But the idea that "I am nobody - humble, dust of your feet" is still a claim, and there is some ego hiding behind it. The humblest person carries the most subtle ego. Watch the so-called humble people - people who think they are humble - and you will see a very very subtle ego hiding behind their facade.

Gayata said, "I am neither humble nor proud; I neither practise long meditations nor become neglectful. I am neither satisfied nor dissatisfied - because there is no desire. so how can I be satisfied or unsatisfied? I am neither contented, nor discontented. I simply go on watching the games of the mind. I have no desire. THIS IS WHAT IS CALLED THE WAY."

It you can fall into this space of watchfulness, you have attained to the Way. And this watchfulness is always there - you have just to make contact with it.

WHAT IS THE PATH TO ETERNAL LIGHT?

The path is not without, it is within. And it is not a path at all - it is just awareness.

And the second thing you ask: CAN AN ALCOHOLIC TAKE SANNYAS?

WHY NOT? If powerholic people can take, sexoholic people can take, egoholic people can take, why not alcoholic? These people are more dangerous people. The politician - the powerholic - mad, intoxicated with power, he is more dangerous. The alcoholic is not so dangerous. The alcoholic can at the most destroy himself; he is suicidal. But the politician can destroy the whole world; he is murderous. Suicide, in fact, is your freedom. If you want to kill yourself, in a free world nobody should prevent you. Why? If you don't want to live, it is for you to choose and decide; it is your life.

The alcoholic is suicidal; but the egoholic, the powerholic, they are murderous; they are the really dangerous people. And the irony is that politicians again and again say they would like to prohibit alcohol completely. They are the REALLY dangerous people. Have you ever heard of any alcoholic doing anything very wrong in the world's history? What wrong can they do? - at the most they can fall in a gutter. So it's okay; that is their freedom. Sometimes they can shout in the night - so what's in it?

But the people who are power-intoxicated, they are danger-ous people. Do you know? - Adolph Hitler was very much against alcohol. He was a mahatma: a non-smoker - he never smoked, he was against smoking; a non-meateater - which is very strange - a vegetarian, a Jain; no alcohol, and very very disciplined. He used to get up in the BRAHMAMUHURTA, early in the morning, his whole life. Used to go to bed early. You cannot find any fault in his character. His character is perfect - as perfect as Mahatma Gandhi's. But then what went wrong?

Such a man of character proved to be the most dangerous man in human history. Now, if he had been a little alcoholic things would have been far better. Then he would not have risen to such power. Mm? He would have been in some gutter, he would not have risen to such power. Or if he had been fooling around with women, there would not have been much danger. What is there in it? But because he was such a man of character he led the whole world to a point where it was almost possible to destroy the whole of humanity, the whole past, the whole achievement of human consciousness. Beware of mahatmas!

Nothing wrong.... If you are a politician, I feel a little hesitant to give you sannyas. If you are an alcoholic, nothing much wrong. You can become a sannyasin. Maybe the sannyas will change your life, because an alcoholic is basically a religious man. This has to be understood.

Alcohol has something of the religious in it - hence the appeal. What is the appeal of alcohol? It makes you forget yourself. It makes you forget your ego - it makes you forget your misery, anxiety, worry. It takes you away from the world; the world is really hell. It gives you a private door to enter into another world. At least for a few moments, a few hours, you are no more part of this ugly affair; you live in a private fancy. It gives you a dream.

Hence, all the religions are against alcohol because it is competitive. Religion ALSO gives you another door to escape from the world. Religion also makes techniques available to you so that you can drop your ego, but permanently. What alcohol can do only temporarily, religion helps to do permanently. Religion can help you so much that not only is the worry forgotten but dropped.

Alcohol is a very temporary measure. Hence the competition.

My own understanding about alcohol is that all the religions have been against it because they see the point: this is the competitor. If people become alcoholics they don't bother about religion; they have found a private technique of their own. Why should they bother about Mahavir and his meditations, and Buddha and his meditations? - and they take a long time and they are arduous.

They have found a-shortcut! They go to the pub and it is okay. For those few moments they are Buddhas.

I have heard about a man who was a soldier in the army - a drunkard. The general called him once, because he was a very good man, loved by everybody, and the general said, "Listen, you are such a good person. You are loved by everybody. Why don't you drop this drinking? If you had dropped this drinking, by now you would have been a captain."

The man laughed; he said, "You are telling me? When I drink I am the general! Who bothers?

Captain...? Every night when I am in it, I am the general - and you are persuading me to be the captain?"

Alcohol is a private door to religion. Not a very good door, very temporary, momentary. But my understanding is that humanity will remain alcoholic till religion becomes its alcohol. Till more and more people come to religion, alcohol is going to remain; alcohol cannot disappear from the world.

I am not against alcohol; I am all for bringing people towards religion, towards meditation, prayer.

Once they start entering into prayer, once they have the real thing, they will drop alcohol. But the real thing has to happen first.

And I am not saying that first you drop out of your drinking habits. That is not possible. I don't demand anything impossible. I accept your limitations. I have so much respect for you that I respect your limitations. I have no condemnation in me. If you are an alcoholic, I understand. I feel sorry for you, I feel compassion for you. I know you must be in trouble; you must be in worries, sadness, misery. Life must be getting too much. It must be getting on your nerves. The alcohol gives you a kind of relaxation .

For the moment nothing is wrong. It's okay. But start searching for the real thing, for the real coin - that's what sannyas is. Start searching for real meditative states when the ego disappears.

When the ego disappears you will not need alcohol. For what? My own observation has been this: that people, once they start getting into meditation, find it impossible to drink. By and by, it becomes a great problem for them, because whenever they drink, they lose all that they attain through meditation. Whenever they drink, they forget all the bliss that comes through meditation.

Alcohol is a technique for forgetfulness. If you are miserable it helps you to forget misery. If you are blissful it helps you to forget your blissfulness. So the whole technique, my technique is, first to make you a little more happy. Once you are happy, then it is your choice; I don't bother about it. I don't ask you to drop it. I say, "Now it is your choice." If you become a little happy you will not go for alcohol, because the moment you drink you will forget your happiness. It brings forgetfulness, whatsoever the case is - happy, unhappy, it brings forgetfulness. Once meditation starts flowering inside you, new spaces, new blissful spaces, it becomes impossible. Then it is for you to choose.

When you have the real diamond, I don't think you are going to go for the artificial one.

And you ask me: WHAT IS THE POINT IN SANNYAS?

Exactly the same that you are searching in alcohol. Exactly, precisely the same. But the alcohol can create only an illusion, and sannyas will give you the real thing.

The fourth question:

Question 3 IS IT REALLY POSSIBLE TO DROP SEX BY GOING THROUGH IT? IT SEEMS MY MIND AND BODY WILL NEVER STOP ASKING FOR IT?

BUT WHY ARE YOU IN SUCH A HURRY TO DROP IT? If you are in such a hurry to drop it, you will never be able to drop it. The very hurry, the very desire to drop it, will not allow you to understand it totally. How can you understand something which you have already decided is wrong, that it has to be dropped7 You have already judged, you have not listened! Give a chance to your sexuality.

I have heard Mulla Nasruddin was made a Justice of the Peace. The first case came into court and he heard one party. Then he said, "Wait, now listen to my judgement." The court clerk was puzzled because he had not yet heard the opposite party.

He leaned close to Nasruddin and said, "What are you doing, sir? Judgement? - you have not heard the other one!"

Nasruddin said, "What do you mean - the other one? Do you want to confuse me? Now things are clear! And if I hear the other one I am going to be confused. Then judgement will be very difficult."

But will it be a judgement? You have not heard the other party at all. You have heard your so-called saints down the ages - they are very vocal. Their whole sex energy has become their articulateness against sex - you have heard them. You have never given a chance to your own sexuality to have its say. No, this will not be right. You are prejudiced. Why? Who knows? It may not be the thing to be dropped. Then...? Who knows? It may be the right thing to go on carrying it.

Remain open. I'm not saying anything. Remain open. Meditate deeply. While you are making love, let meditativeness penetrate your love act. Watch! And forget all the prejudices that you have been brought up with - all those conditionings against sex make you more sexual than you think sexuality is milking you. It is not sex energy itself which is the problem. It is the anti-sexual mind that creates perversion.

All the religions have been sources of perversion. When I say all the religions, I don't mean Buddha, I don't mean Mahavir, I don't mean Krishna, I don't mean Christ or Mohammed; I mean the followers.

They have been the source - a great source.

And what happened really? They watched Buddha and they saw that sex had disappeared, so they made it a dictum that sex has to disappear. You can only become a Buddha when sex disappears - they made a dictum, they made it a rule. And this is just putting things in a wrong order. Sex disappears because Buddha has come to his inner source, not the other way round. Not that he has dropped sex and that's why he has become a Buddha. He has become a Buddha, hence sex has disappeared.

But from the outside people watched Buddha and they saw sex had disappeared - so drop sex if you want to become a Buddha. Buddha is not interested in money, so they thought, "Become disinterested in money if you want to become a Buddha."

But these are all wrong approaches! This is not looking for the cause, but misunderstanding the effect as the cause. The cause is inside Buddhahood. He has become awakened to his inner being.

When one becomes awakened to one's inner being. one is so blissful that who bothers about sex?

Who begs for small moments of pleasure from somebody else? Who goes begging? When you are the emperor and you have the treasure, the infinite treasure, within yourself, you will not go to ask a woman, you will not go to ask a man, to give you a few moments of pleasure. And you know that she is begging and you are begging - both are beggars standing before each other with their begging bowls: "You give me a few moments of pleasure, I will give you a few moments of pleasure." And both are beggars! How can beggars give?

But I'm not saying something is wrong in it. While Buddhahood has not yet happened to you, all things will continue. Nothing is wrong. For the moment, don't judge. Judgement is wrong. You become more watchful, more accepting, more relaxed with your energies. Otherwise you will be in the trouble Christian saints have been in down the ages.

I have heard about Jerome, a very famous Christian saint. He was so much against the body that he used to whip his body every day. Blood would flow from his body, and thousands of people would come to see this great austerity. Now both are ill: Jerome is a masochist, and the people who gather together to see this great phenomenon are sadists. They want to torture people, they have a great desire to torture. They cannot, and this man is doing it on his own - they are very happy watching it. Both are pathological.

Jerome condemned the body as the 'vile body', the 'sack of excrement'. He was tormented in his cave by visions of bevies of girls. He grudgingly permitted marriage, very grudgingly - because it was the only way of producing virgins. The reason is: virgins - the most perfect beings on the earth.

So it is a necessary evil, that's why he permitted marriage; otherwise, it is a sin.

Another, Clement of Alexandria, wrote: "Every woman should be overwhelmed with shame at the thought that she is a woman - because she is the door to hell."

I have always been surprised by these people. If woman is the door to hell, then no woman can enter hell - the door cannot enter itself. Man can enter through the woman into hell, okay; and what about woman? They must be all in heaven. Naturally! And what about man? If woman is the door to hell, then what about man? - because these scriptures have been written by men, and all these saints were men. In fact, women have never been so neurotic; that's why you don't hear of many women saints. They have been more normal, they have been more down-to-earth. They have not been so foolish as man has proved. They are more graceful and more round in their being, more rooted in the earth, more centered. Hence, you don't hear about many women like Clement of Alexandria - you cannot find a parallel woman. No woman has ever said that man is the door to hell.

And it is not that women have never been mystics. No, there was Meera, and there was Rabiya, and there was Lalla in Kashmir - but they have never said anything like this. On the contrary, Meera said that love is the door to God.

And another saint, Origen, castrated himself. Murderers, suicidal people! All this repression created great pathology in the Christian world.

A nun, Machthild of Magdeburg, felt God's hand fondling her bosom. Now why give God such trouble? But if you avoid men, then you will start creating fantasies. Then you will have to put too much into your fantasies.

Christine Ebner, another woman nun, believed herself with a child by Jesus.

There were monks who dreamed of copulating with the Virgin Mary. And because of great repression, the convents and monasteries became the visiting places of the so-called evil spirits.

These demons took the form either of SUCCUBI - beautiful girls who jumped into the beds of would- be male saints - or INCUBI - handsome young men who interrupted the slumber or meditations of the most respectable nuns.

Such pathology arose in Christianity that people started dreaming all kinds of things. And many nuns confessed in the courts that the Devil came in the night and made love to them. They even described the Devil's physiology, what kind of sexual organ he has: forked, so that it enters both the holes.

Pathology, ill people, gone neurotic! And those nuns confessed in the courts that once you have made love to the Devil then no man can ever satisfy you - he is the greatest lover, he brings such orgasms.

This nonsense happened, not only in Christianity - it happened all over the world. But Christianity comes to the topmost in it.

Please, don't be against sex, otherwise you will fall into the trap of sex more and more. If you want to get rid of it, you will never get rid of it. Yes, there is a point of transcendence when sex disappears, but it is not that you are against it. It disappears only when you find better blessings arising inside your being. Never before it. The higher has to be found first, then the lower disappears of its own accord.

Let it be a fundamental rule in your life: Never be against the lower - SEARCH for the higher.

NEVER be against the lower, search for the higher. And the moment the higher dawns on you, suddenly you will see that the interest in the lower has disappeared.

You ask: IS IT POSSIBLE, REALLY POSSIBLE, TO DROP SEX BY GOING THROUGH IT?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you go through it you will be able to understand it.

Understanding is freedom, understanding liberates.

I'm not against sex, so don't be in a hurry that you have to drop it. If you WANT to drop it, how can you understand it? And if you DON'T understand it, it will never disappear! And when it disappears, it is not that sex is simply cut off from your being, it is not that you become a non-sexual being.

When sex disappears, in fact you become more sensuous than ever, because the whole energy is absorbed by your being.

A Buddha is more sensuous than you are. When HE smells, he smells more intensely than you smell. When HE touches, he touches more totally than you touch. When he looks at the flowers, he sees the flowers more beautiful than you can see - because his whole sexual energy has spread all over his senses. It is no longer localized in the genitals, it has gone all over the body. Hence, Buddha is so beautiful - the grace, the unearthly grace - from where is it coming? It is SEX - transformed, transfigured. It is the same mud that you were decrying and condemning which has become a lotus flower.

So never be against sex; it is going to become your lotus flower. And when sex is really transfigured, then you understand what a great gift sex was from God to you. It is your whole life, it is your whole energy. On the lower planes, on the higher planes - it is the only energy you have got. So don't carry any antagonism, otherwise you will become repressive. And a man who represses cannot understand. And a man who cannot understand is never transfigured, never transformed.

The last question:

I CAN UNDERSTAND. Whenever the idea of taking a jump into the unknown arises, one has to face a thousand and one problems You ask me: PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IT MEANS TO TAKE SANNYAS.

There is no way to explain it. You can experience it by taking it. It cannot be explained. If I explain it, it is not going to sink into your heart. It is something that you have to taste; it is something existential.

It is like love. You cannot explain to a person what love is if he has not known love himself or herself.

You can explain and explain, and still nothing will be explained. The man who has not known love can go on repeating the word 'love' but will not know exactly what it is.

Sannyas is a love affair. And the one who has asked this question, Patricia, is already in love with me. But love creates great anxiety too, because love demands. Love takes you on a journey into the unknown. I would like to explain it to you but I cannot, because the very nature of it prohibits that.

You will have to move into it to know about it.

There are two kinds of knowledge in the world. One is what Bertrand Russell calls 'acquaintance'.

Sannyas can never be covered by that kind of knowledge. The other is knowing through love.

Sannyas can be covered only by that kind of knowing.

Bodhidharma has said there are two doors to truth: one, the outer door; and the other, the inner.

The outer door goes on round and round and round, about and about, and never reaches anywhere.

That is the way of philosophy. The other door is of religion. It is an inner door; it does not go roundabout, it simply hits the target and disappears into the target. Only it knows.

You will have to experience it And you are on the verge of it already, and I know you cannot escape.

There is no way to escape now. You have passed that point from where a person can escape. You are already trapped, Patricia.

You say: YOU HAVE GIVEN ME MANY UNDERSTANDINGS....

Many more are waiting. And the understandings that I have given to you are nothing compared to the understandings that are still waiting for you. I have given that which can be given through the word, now you have to take that which can only ke given through silence.

Sannyas is a communion in silence.

Buddha came one day with a lotus flower in his hand and sat silently. The monks had gathered to listen - ten thousand - and they became puzzled and restless. He would not speak - he was just sitting and looking at the flower. Minutes passed and the hour passed, and then Mahakashyap, one of his disciples, started laughing loudly, madly.

Buddha looked at Mahakashyap, called him, gave him the flower and told the assembly, "That which can be said through words I have given to you all, and that which cannot be given through words I give to Mahakashyap."

Mahakashyap became the first Zen Master.

What was given to Mahakashyap? Mahakashyap was initiated into something unknown, which is not definable, which cannot be uttered in words; which cannot be explained but which can be understood.

Sannyas is a transference of something beyond words, a transmission beyond scriptures.

Patricia, many understandings have come to you, but they are still all intellectual. Something more..something more vital, something more existential I am carrying for you, and waiting. That can happen only through sannyas.

Sannyas is a gesture from your side that you leave yourself defenseless, that you will not defend, that you will remain vulnerable to me. That even if I am going to kill you, you will be ready to be killed - with gratitude. That's what sannyas is. Sannyas is trust.

Right now whatsoever you have understood, YOU have understood. You trust yourself. Sannyas is trusting me. If you go on trusting yourself, you can go on to a certain extent, but not beyond that.

YOU HAVE GIVEN ME MANY UNDERSTANDINGS AND OPENED NEW PATHS...

But THE path is still not opened. Paths I have opened. They are small paths outside the fence, and the one that goes to the capital. But THE PATH, THE PATHLESS PATH, has still to be opened - and that can be opened only when I am allowed to touch your very being. Sannyas is to open your heart to me, with no condition.

AS I LISTEN TO YOUR TAPE, I LOVE YOUR VOICE....

You will have to love my silence too. Voice will convey something, but not all.

If the picture is doing that, then why are you going to miss the real? If the picture is doing that, why not enter into the real too? With the picture there is one simple thing: you are the master. You can put my picture anywhere you want, you can hang it on the wall, you can throw it - you are the master. With the picture you are at ease. That's why when Buddhas are alive, people avoid them; and when they are gone, they worship their statues for millions of years. The same people avoided the alive Buddha and go on worshipping the statue. Why? With the statue you are the master, with a real Buddha you are not.

It happened: a woman came to Picasso and said, "Just the other day I saw your self-portrait in some friend's house. It was really beautiful. I loved it. It was so real I could almost feel you in it. And I loved it so much, I was so fascinated, that I even kissed it."

Picasso said, "And did it kiss you back?"

The woman said, "What are you saying' How can the picture kiss me back?"

So Picasso said, "Then it was not me."

Patricia, you can go on playing with pictures. That is not me! They will not kiss you back. You can go on kissing them.... To be a sannyasin means to allow MY kiss. It is a death kiss - it sure kills, it never fails.

But it is still YOUR feeling; you have not done anything about it still. The feeling won't do. You have to do something very very actual about it. It is just a feeling.

Then why are you waiting? Then let the Master be the Master and let the disciple be the disciple.

Then why go on protecting and defending yourself?

I FEEL YOU ARE MY MASTER AND IN A SENSE MY BELOVED.

Yes, it is still 'in a sense'. Come closer, become a sannyasin and let it be in all senses. Let it be total. You have to surrender to a Master - not partially. A partial surrender is not a surrender at all.

It has to be total, only then it is.

True, but the trees won't give you sannyas, and the clouds won't create any trouble for you. I am going to create trouble. With trees it is perfectly okay. In fact, when you get something from the trees it is not really from the trees. First you put something in the trees and then you get it I ack. It is a game. You put something in the clouds and you get it back. It is your own ego It is good, it is very poetic.

With me, it is not so. I have something to give to you, and I know that when I really start pouring it, people become afraid; they don't want to have it, because to have it means to disappear utterly into it. It is a death. The resurrection follows it, certainly! But who knows about the resurrection? First the death comes.

Patricia, you are a poet. Good! But I would like you to become a mystic. You are too much involved with the feeling. Thinking is the farthest, feeling is closer to home. The philosopher is the farthest, the poet is closer to home; but, still, not exactly at home. Thinking, feeling, being - to be a sannyasin is to learn the language of being. It goes far beyond feeling. Certainly it goes beyond thinking, and it goes beyond feeling. The head has to disappear, but there comes a moment when the heart also has to disappear. Only then God is.

You are looking at it from a very very wrong angle. You don't know what the whole is. I can become the door to the whole. I'm not going to let you cling to me! You have simply to pass through me and go beyond. You are not choosing me against the whole: you are choosing the whole through me!

And because right now you cannot go directly to the whole, a Master is needed. It is just like when a small child wants to walk. He has the capacity to walk and one day it will become actual. It is right now potential, he needs the mother's hand. With the mother's hand he starts gaining courage, confidence.

Let my hand he just your mother's hand, or your father's hand. The moment you are ready, I will be the first to withdraw my hand. And I know, as you are hesitating now, then too you will hesitate to leave it. People are always hesitating. First they hesitate to hold the hand because they are afraid their in-dependence will be lost. And they have nothing in the name of independence but just a poor ego. And when I start withdrawing my hand, then they will start crying and weeping and they will say, "Don't leave us!"

But I have to do both. One day I have to hold your hand and one day I have to leave it. The day I feel, "Now you are ready to go into the whole without me," I will be the happiest person in the world to help you to go into it. It is not a question of choosing between the whole and the part. And because you have a feel for me, you can understand that too.

That's why you say: BUT YET I FEEL YOU ARE THE WHOLE.

But it is still a feeling. Let it become an existential experience. The question is not between choosing the whole and me; the question is between choosing you and me! That is what sannyas brings too.

That's what it comes to at the very core of it. Sannyas is a question of choosing between you and me - between the disciple and Master.

Right now, if you remain clinging to the way you have lived, you will be choosing yourself against me. That will be a poor choice, not a happy choice. You don't have anything to lose except your ignorance. You have nothing to lose but your chains, nothing to lose but your misery.