Chapter 29

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

Q: YOUR COMMUNE IN AMERICA OREGON, HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS BOTH, AS AN EXPERIMENT OF AN ALTERNATIVE SOCIETY AND AS AN EXPERIMENT OF A REAL COMMUNIST.(*) WOULD YOU AGREE?

A: Yes, I agree. I agree totally.

It was an experiment for both: as an alternative society and as a higher quality of communism.

The old society has some basic things on which it depends. There have been many critics of the old society but none of them has succeeded to hit the very roots. They have been just pruning the leaves.

So the critics have been criticizing and the old society goes on and on. Their criticism has not made any difference to it.

The roots of the old society are hidden like all roots of all the trees. They are not available unless you dig deep.

For example, the family is the basic unit of the old society.

Marriage is the basic unit of the old society.

Money as the means of exchange -- is very fundamental to the old society.

Religious orientation -- whatever the religion may be; but the old society needs a certain religion. It is the opium that keeps the people asleep and drugged.

In my commune we were destroying the very roots. We were destroying the family, we were dissolving the family into the commune.

The children were not going to belong to the parents: they could love them, they could meet them, they could invite them, but they cannot possess them. They have been only vehicles of bringing those children to the world. The children are not their property. The commune will take care of the children.

Hence, marriage loses its relevance.

You can be together with a woman or a man as long as you love. Except love, there is no other reason to be together. There should not be any other reason to be together. Because any other reason is going to be wrong reason.

No law, no logic, no convenience, no respectability... the moment you see the love has disappeared it is time to depart in deep gratitude, friendship, remembering all the beautiful moments that you have given to each other. Not spoiling it by fighting, quarreling, going to a court for a divorce -- it is absolutely ugly.

When there is no marriage there is no question of divorce.

When there is no marriage prostitution disappears automatically.

Prostitution is the shadow of marriage. It is the marriage in which love has died that creates the prostitute -- the ugliest institution in existence.

The old society forces the woman to sell her body for money.

This is a crime which cannot be forgiven and strange is the fact that all the old societies are against prostitution and they are the causes to create it; and they can't see the simple logic that when a man cannot feel love for his wife and cannot enjoy her... she is no more an ecstasy to him -- he tries to find, perhaps he can buy ecstasy, he can buy love, he can buy happiness... a desperate effort of a miserable man.

In the ancient times it was not possible for women to have male prostitutes for the simple reason that they were reduced to such slavery. They had no right, no say, how the society should be run. They had no money but in this century, as women have become slowly financially independent, simultaneously a new institution has come into being: male prostitution.

Now the woman is doing the same as man has been doing. She is also hoping for hers through money. Those beautiful moments can be captured back which she has lost.

But money cannot buy few things.

It cannot buy love.

It cannot buy peace.

It cannot buy ecstasy.

The old society is miserable, but itself is responsible for all the miseries.

Then there is the money as a means of exchange and it is money that has created classes. The so-called communism created by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels does not take note of the basic fact. They miss the most fundamental thing... they want to distribute the money equally, but they don't see the point that it is the money which has created the classes.

You can distribute the money but then you will have to keep a continuous dictatorial state to keep the money distributed equally; otherwise, soon there will be people who will be having more money and there will be people who will be having less money, because to earn money is an art. To accumulate money is an art. To create wealth is an art. And everybody is not so talented.

Soon there will be poor and the rich. But they did not see, they both were blind about the most important thing -- that the easiest way to disappear is to take the money out of the society; that it is no more the means of exchange... then there is nobody poor and nobody rich. There is no need to create a classless society: just remove the money and the classless society comes into being.

The commune should take the responsibility of providing the basic needs of the members. Everybody should get whatever is his need. And we had managed in our small commune of five thousand people for four years, the highest quality of communism that has ever existed on the earth. It was an alternative society because it dissolved the family, it dissolved the marriage, it dissolved divorce, it dissolved the whole of possessiveness of the parents over children. It dissolved money. It made a classless society. It dissolved any need of a ruling class and the ruled. It created a functional structure.

So the president was not more prestigious than the plumber. He was doing his work; the plumber was doing his work.It was possible that the plumber was doing a better work as a plumber than the president was doing his work. Then the plumber has to be honored and respected.

Yes, our commune was an alternative society and a higher form of communism.

And we have proved that it is possible. We were not only theoreticians; we have practically proved it, against all odds, against the greatest, mightiest government... We managed to create an oasis in a world of misery.

People rejoicing and dancing. People feeling completely unburdened of the whole past and unconcerned of the future.

Those four years we had managed to give reality to a dream which man has been dreaming for millenia.

Q: HAS THE FACT YOU LEFT AMERICA TO BE CONSIDERED A FAILURE OF YOUR EXPERIMENT?

A: It was not a failure. It was an absolute success.

We succeeded doing everything that we wanted.

We managed to prove that whatever is our theoretical idea is practical. It is pragmatic, it is down-to-earth: that is our success. I call it absolute success -- not in terms of time that it existed in only four years, but in terms that it existed at all!

It was going to be destroyed: that is not something unexpected. It was going to be crushed. In fact, it threatened the greatest world power -- that is its success. It challenged the greatest power -- that is its success. That the greatest world power had to use illegal means, undemocratic means to destroy it, is its success.

America has failed, not the commune. Otherwise a small commune of five thousand people: what harm it could have done to America? It had no clear weapons, it was not a danger to anybody, it could not have conquered America.

What was the fear?

The fear was not of nuclear weapons: the fear was not that this commune is going to conquer them. The fear was that this commune is transforming a dream which is hidden in every man's unconscious. That this commune is making something real... that man has always wanted to experiment with but has thought that it is a dream, and it is good to dream about them but you cannot materialize them.

We proved it. Anybody who thinks it was a failure is absolutely wrong. We succeeded in every way. We threatened the greatest power -- what more success do you want?

Such great powers are not threatened by small things. They don't take any care.

They could have ignored, but they could not ignore. They had to take note of it and they had to understand it clearly that if this commune goes on growing sooner or later it is going to threaten their very existence, without any nuclear weapons.

It is going to take away their youth. It is going to take over their people. It is going to take away their most potential power -- human power; then they can go on keeping their nuclear weapons, they will be of no use.

The fear, the paranoia, in the American government's mind, against a single man and his small commune is a proof of absolute success.

Q: BHAGWAN, THAT MEANS THAT THERE IS NO HOPE FOR WHEREVER PEOPLE LIKE YOU WILL TRY AN EXPERIMENT LIKE THIS -- IT WILL, IS IT BOUND TO BE DESTROYED?

A: No, there is always hope. They can destroy one time, they can destroy hundred times, but they cannot destroy it always.

Each time they will destroy we will be creating more sympathy, more lovers, more people on our side.

Each time a man like me will be jailed, you will find more and more people coming closer to our philosophy, way of life.

This is how history functions. They will destroy few times but each time they will be weakening themselves and they will be strengthening us. We invite them to go on destroying till we are more powerful than them and they cannot destroy any more and they have to commit suicide because nothing else is left for them to do.

Q: WE THINK THAT THERE HAS BEEN SOME MISUNDERSTANDING WHEN YOU TALK AGAINST POVERTY TOO. IN FACT, IT HAS BEEN A REPORT TODAY YOU ARE AGAINST THE POOR. WILL YOU PLEASE MAKE IT CLEAR: ARE YOU AGAINST POVERTY OR AGAINST THE POOR?

A: There is no misunderstanding. I am against poverty, but without poverty how can there be poor people?

If I destroy poverty, I am destroying at the same time poor people too.

The poor people exist through poverty. The misunderstanding is created by the people who would like to say that destroy poverty, but love the poor. What they are saying is: that the poor man can be still a poor man without poverty? They are trying to save Jesus, they are trying to save all the old religions because Jesus is not saying that he is for poverty -- he is saying, "Blessed are the poor."

But how these people can be poor without poverty? And if he wants these people to be poor, he is for poverty: without any confusion. I am against poverty, hence I am against the poor man because the poor man is nothing t a byproduct of poverty. Once the poverty is withdrawn the poor man disappears. So there is no confusion.

It is better I should say that, "To me, they are both the same thing."

But the distinction has been made down the ages so I can understand what the question is. They have always said, "Condemn the evil, but don't condemn the evil man."

But without the evil how the man can be evil? That is beyond my comprehension. They say, "Destroy sickness, but love the sick people." t if you destroy the sickness, where you are going to find the sick people? To me, it is sickness that makes them sick and if you are really destroying sickness there is not going to be anybody who is sick, and nobody needs your sympathy.

So I am against poverty and I am against poor man.

I would like every man to be rich in all the dimensions of life.

I am all for riches and to me riches does not mean only money. A man who cannot understand the greatest literature of the world is a poor man and I hate him! He is living unnecessarily... he is simply a burden on the earth. Either he has to improve, either he has to sharpen his intelligence, or he has no future.

In all the dimensions poverty has to disappear -- and with the poverty the poor man disappears automatically.

The man remains... just that ugliness of poverty disappears. I cannot say "blessed are the poor", "blessed are the sheep", "blessed are the ugly"... just I cannot say, and I cannot tolerate anybody else saying this. I will condemn him, criticize him to my best. Because I want this earth to be full of beautiful people -- multi- dimensionally rich; contributing more beauty, more joy, more blissfulness.

Q: WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE TO DESTROY POVERTY FROM THE WORLD?

A: My advice is very simple.

First, absolute birth control for twenty to thirty years.

On the other side, after seventy-five years, freedom for everybody to choose if he wants to die then he can simply go to the hospital and register himself that he has lived enough and now there is no point in living and he wants to be relieved.

So on the one hand, we prevent the new people coming and on the other hand we make the old people move faster in the queue... so the world population is reduced to almost one fourth of what it is, then the earth is plenty, rich, nourishing.

Secondly, nations should disappear from the world. They are one of the causes of poverty, sickness, war, destruction and misuse of technology, science and the energy that man produces.

We need one world. If we want to be rich, we need only one world. No political lines on the earth. Then it will be very easy to see.

There was a time in Soviet Russia they were using wheat instead of coal in their railway lines, in their engines; because they had a bumper crop of wheat and wheat was cheaper than coal and they don't have many mines for coal.

The whole East was dying hungry; they cannot eat coal. They have mines of coal, but they cannot eat coal. But the wheat is being used as coal. If it was one world things would have been simple. Shift the coal where it is too much and useless and send the wheat where it is needed -- don't burn it: it is not something to be burned when people are hungry.

Just few months before in Europe they drowned millions of tons of food in the ocean and just close by in Nigeria, in Ethiopia, people were dying. In Ethiopia people were dying in thousands because they had no water, no food. And in Europe you are drowning food, fresh food, into the ocean.

In fact, one hundred thousand dollars were wasted just in drowning it: because you need labor to drown the food.

If the world was one, Ethiopia would not have died the way it has died. And it has been happening always... America goes on destroying its crops, drowning its food in the ocean, but will not give it to those who are dying. For the simple reason because if you start to giving food then your own economy suffers. Then the prices come down and no country wants -- particularly people who are holding the markets, don't want the prices to come down.

And why they should bother about Ethiopia? Ethiopia or no Ethiopia -- it makes no sense to Europe. It is good if it is finished: one problem is solved.

We need one world.

Just the idea of one world means tremendous energy involved in preparation for war -- nuclear weapons, atomic energy, millions of the best minds humanity has ever produced; all the scientists, all the technologists, are freed to do some creative work.

If they can manage atomic energy to destroy Hiroshima and Nagasaki, if they can manage nuclear weapons to destroy the whole world, why they cannot manage with the same energy, to produce more food? To produce better clothes?

To produce better houses? To produce totally a new kind of world which has never been dreamt of, which is now possible. Unpolluted, ecologically sane...

there is enough food in the oceans; just our scientists have to work on it. Very nourishing food can be found from the oceans.

And ultimately science goes deeper into it, there is bound to come a time when science can create synthetic food; just as synthetic clothes, just as everything man can made(sic) which will be better -- far more improved than nature.

Man can live at least three hundred years very easily. Just if he gets the right kind of food and if the whole scientific world changes its direction from death to life it is possible.

Things are very simple. Just we have not explored. If you look at the back you can understand it.

There was a time when man lived only on hunting. He had no idea that fruits can be eaten, that crops can be grown. If anybody had said that he would have been thought crazy. Because people had never done that. They have all lived on hunting and to live on hunting was a very difficult process because you may get some day food, and you may not get some day. It was all accidental.

But as the population grew they had to listen to the dreamers who said these fruits can be eaten; that crops can be grown... and that was a tremendous revolution -- from hunting to cultivation.

And we are still hanging there. Standing in my window I see every day, and I feel so sad.

One couple is working since I have come... they may have been working long before... with their hands, preparing the ground to sow the seeds. They have not even come to use the bullocks or the horses, they are living almost fifty thousand years back.

In the middle of Katmandu, where you have all contemporary technology available, the whole day from morning to evening they are preparing the ground just by hands. It will take months to prepare... which could have been done with bullocks or horses within a week. Which could have been done by a tractor just in few hours.

But perhaps they have no idea. We have to bring science, technology, to every field of life. In every possible way.

Man's mind clings to the past. Everything new seems to be unnatural. It is not true.

I use hundred percent polyester and my father was very much against. He will say, "This is unnatural: you should use cotton." But I told him, "Do you know...

there were times people never used cotton, they were naked; and when for the first time cotton was used there were people like you who said it is unnatural, because our fathers, forefathers, have never used it. And I feel perfectly comfortable in it.... I have never felt so comfortable in any other kind of clothing.

So have I to understand my own experience or just to follow the old trodden path?"

Poverty is not something of a great problem. The problem is divisions of nations, divisions of religions. You can see it in India. The man is poor if he is Hindu, if he becomes converted to Catholicism he becomes rich. Hindu, he will remain poor; Christian, he need not be poor.

But is it right to exploit the man? Is it right to purchase the man's ideology by giving him food, shelter, clothing, education? Why can't you give him without any conditions -- just as a human being? It means `there is enough, but first you have to be a Christian.'

Poverty is not necessary: your Hinduism, your Buddhism, is a barrier. Be Christian and poverty disappears.

I want all these religions to disappear... so all their riches can be used for the benefit of all.

Reduce the population, destroy nations, destroy religions, and the world would be as rich as you cannot dream.

It is a very simple phenomena.

Q: BHAGWAN, WE AGREE WITH YOU IN TOTAL AND FOR, WHATEVER HELP WE CAN BE WE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IN WHICH CIRCUMSTANCE WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO CREATE ANOTHER EXPERIMENT OF AN ALTERNATIVE SOCIETY TO OFFER AS A MODEL TO THE WORLD?

A: This time I am not going to create a society or a commune, as a model. I have done that.

But my people will be creating communes around the world -- on the same model. So that I don't become tethered to one small space; one single spot, with only few thousand people.

I would like to remain available to all of my sannyasins around the world. Now I am going to be a constant wanderer, a traveller, looking what my people are doing around the world. Helping them to do it better.

So I am not going to put my energies into a small model -- that I have done... and this is not my habit -- to do anything again. Once is enough.

I have moved to another experiment, now I will be moving around the world continuously, travelling, reaching to every sannyasin, to every lover, to every friend, to every sympathizer; and creating a worldwide movement... and now it is up to my sannyasins to create communes.

This way I will be able to work on a bigger scale, larger scale. And it will become more impossible for any stupid government to destroy my work because it will be spread all over the world.

Q: YOU TALK ABOUT MEDITATION. CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEDITATION TECHNIQUES AND MEDITATION ITSELF? AND HOW THERE CAN BE MEDITATION THAT CAN DRIVE YOU IN A BULLDOZER, OR WORKING TWELVE HOURS A DAY?

A: Meditation techniques are not really meditation.

Meditation techniques only prepare the ground.

They are needed because people's minds are so full of rubbish... that before meditation can be started, that rubbish has to be removed.

Meditation techniques are just to remove the rubbish. If that is removed, then starts meditation.

If somebody comes with a mind clean, he does not need any technique. He can directly enter into the space I call meditation.

And the space called meditation has nothing to do where you are, what you are doing, or not doing. It is simply a constant awareness, an undercurrent of alertness. So you can work twelve hours on a bulldozer or you can just sit silently doing nothing. Deep underneath your work or no work there is a thread of alertness.

I have loved always a story... There was a master thief -- he was never caught and it was thought to be an honor if he stole from your house. People talked about that, "The master thief has visited us." Because it was not an ordinary thing... he never went to ordinary people -- he went only to the super rich, to the kings, to the emperors. So to be visited by the master thief people used to brag about it. It was more valuable than what he has stolen. His coming was more valuable. He was getting old. His son asked him, "That now you are old and you have not taught your art to me."

The master said, "It is never late. You can come tonight with me and I am going into a very beautiful palace."

The son followed. He was very much afraid. Although he was young and strong; and the old man has passed eighty, but he was unafraid... He made a hole in the wall; the son was perspiring, it was a cold night and cold wind was blowing and he was so nervous he could not believe that that old man's hands were not even shaking. And he was doing as if it is his own house. He made the hole, he entered in the hole, he called the son -- he was very much afraid to enter in it -- but now he himself has asked and what the father will think of him, so he entered. The father said, "Don't be afraid, can't you see me? And you are just with me, just watch me... and behave! This is not the way of becoming a master thief. Follow me!"

He followed, but his legs were trembling, his breathing was no more normal, his heart was thumping... he could not believe that the heart can make so much noise. The night was silent, but the old man was as if absent. He opened the doors upon doors -- he had a master key -- he entered into the innermost chamber; he opened the door of a closet... beautiful, very costly dresses. He told the son to go in and to find out the best dress you like. And as he went in the old man closed the lock, locked the door, shouted loudly, "Thief, thief!" and ran out from the backside, from the same hole they had entered.

Everybody was awake... the whole house, the servants, and the master and the children and the wife and the guests were there and they were all looking all around... where is the thief? and certainly there has been a thief, because the hole in the wall was a proof.

And the young man could not believe that his father will do such a nasty thing to him. He has always been nice.

Closing the doors, putting the lock, and then shouting thief, thief! And running away. Now how he is going to get out? His mind could not function: your mind would not have functioned either.

It was such a situation where mind has to stop, because mind can work only with known situations. As the unknown comes in, the mind stops, simply stops.

Then a maid-servant came in, looking all around. She thought perhaps it is good idea to look in the closet. She opened the lock, opened the door, she was having a candle in her hand, looked inside, and the young man had no idea what he is doing, why he is doing, he simply blew the candle out, pushed the servant, the maid-servant, and ran out from the same hole, but now everybody has seen him.

They all followed. And he was running for life, so he was running at his best. He could not do better... he had been a good runner, he has participated in the university, he has been a good competitor, he has been a champion runner, but he could not believe that this is double that he is doing. If he had done this much he would have been the national champion.

The people were still following and more people had joined them -- neighbours and others and they were all shouting and they had torches and he comes by the side of a well, and still not knowing what is happening; because he is not in a situation to figure out, to think -- there is no time -- mind needs time to think.

Those who know, say "mind is time". They are not two entities. If there is no time, there is no mind. If there is no mind, there is no time.

He had no time to think, but things were happening on their own accord. This is what I call a spontaneity.

He just took over a big rock and he could not believe that he can take that big load in his hands... the rock was too big, and he threw the rock into the well. Not knowing what he is doing, and why.... And ran away. All the people who were following gathered around the well thinking that he has jumped into the well.

Listening to the rock sound falling into the well.

He reached home....

The old man was fast asleep!

He was snoring!

The young man could not believe that this is your father. He pulled his blanket and he said, "Is this a way to behave with your own son?"

The father opened his half-eyes and said, "So, you are back? The remaining story you can tell me in morning. If you are back, it seems everything went right. But don't disturb my sleep. Just go and have a good rest."

The son could not believe that he is not even curious what happened to him... his life was at risk at every moment... he could have been caught, he could have been given to the police, the people could have shot him -- anything was possible, and he is saying, that "You are back, that's enough, the remaining story you can tell me in the morning, that is not very important. What is important is that you are back and I am happy."

In the morning the father said, "There is no need to tell the story. This is the whole art. If you want to become a master thief you have not to function out of the mind, you have to function out of your totality, spontaneity. Now you can choose -- this is my business, my whole life's work... I have given you a taste. If you love it, the adventure of it, the ecstasy of it, then you are welcome my son.

From today you can go on your own because there is only one lesson in this path."

Meditation is a single lesson of awareness, of no-thought, of spontaneity, of being total in your action, alert, aware. It is not a technique, it is a knack. Either you get it or you don't.

Q: DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR SANNYASI AND FRIENDS HAVE NOW LEARNED THE LESSON ABOUT THE DANGER OF AN ORGANIZED RELIGION?

A: They certainly have. I have been telling to them my whole life the dangers of organized religion.

But just telling is not enough. They need something practical. I gave them a practical situation.

They have learnt it... they have burnt their fingers in learning it -- they will never forget it, they will never repeat the same mistake again.

I am happy. Once in a while people need something actual, not theoretical.

Q: IF YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO SPEAK BOTH TO REAGAN AND GORBACHOV WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?

A: I would say to them that if they have any humanity left in them then the first thing is: help to create one world.

They are the greatest powers in the world -- if they want, it becomes a very easy thing.

They are in a situation to destroy the whole world. I can show them an alternative that you are also in a state of creating one world... perhaps it has not dawned on their consciousness, that the power they have is not only capable of destroying the world, it is also capable of creating one world. Because never before in history two countries had so much power that the whole world will have to listen to them. All that is needed that they should agree on the point that we want to create one world. Then all these small nations, poor nations, can be given the alternative to choose... Either a third world war or one world.

(Tape side C) And in the third world war only America and Russia are going to lose -- nobody else. Because nobody else has got anything to lose.

Even if the third world war does not happen, most of the countries will die out of starvation and population. Can you understand: I used to think that by the end of this century India will have the population one billion. Right now it is nine hundred million. For the first time in thousands of years it will be the first time that it will go ahead of China. Up to now China has been the leading country having the greatest population. But just the other day, I came to know that by two thousand -- by the end of this century -- India will not have only one billion population, it would have doubled its population as it is now... that is nine hundred million it is now.... It would have doubled: that means, eighteen hundred million. One billion and eighteen hundred million.These people are going to die by themselves -- without any war. In fact, war will be a great release of their tension, of their worry, of constant death ahead.

The only countries one third of the world -- the third world -- will die of poverty, starvation, sickness....

The remaining world -- which is not poor, but which has not the clear powers compared to Russia or America, will die of AIDS; which is even uglier than dying with a starvation.

So this world is finished.

Only in the third world war America and Russia are going to lose. They are going to destroy themselves. The remaining world is going to commit suicide on its own -- they don't need your help.

So I will suggest to these people that just be clear about the situation. You are going to lose, if there is a war. Only you will be the losers, and you both will be destroyed in it.

You can propose to the world that we have decided to be together. Rather than to die together; we have decided to live together -- and create one world.

And nobody can prevent Soviet Union and Russia from creating one world. They can remove all the lines from the map very easily -- there is no problem at all.

And once they decide that they are not going to fight, then their tremendous energy -- which is involved into war efforts -- will be available for them, and for the whole world, to make a paradise out of it.

Okay, Sarjano.