Chapter 17

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTRODUCER: Mr Benare(*) who Acharya (inaudible), and Mr Kedamasingh(*) from BBC and AFP, and Mr Lalit Josi(*) from France(*) PTI.

Q: BHAGWAN, YOU WENT TO UNITED STATES WITH ALL THE DETERMINEDNESS TO SETTLE DOWN AND YOU HAVE COME BACK. DO YOU FIND THE (INAUDIBLE) SOME TIME IN FUTURE TO SEE SANNYASIS AND THE DISCIPLES?

A: I have never gone there with a determined or undetermined intention to settle. It was just a coincidence that American sannyasins were looking for a land to create a commune of their own and my health was not good, I had gone just for my health reasons. And my health problems are such they don't need any medical care, they need only controlled environment. For example, I have many allergies: perfume, smoke, dust. If they can be avoided then I am perfectly happy, there is no problem. If they cannot be avoided then my breathing is affected and I have asthma attacks. There is no cure for allergies.

The same way humidity affects, if humidity is too much then again asthma starts and it is a very severe attack -- whole night, then sleep is impossible. I am just coughing and tossing and turning. So I need a certain climate which is cold, non- humid and by chance my people had found a place which suited to me very much. It was a desert, that's why they could get it. Otherwise to find such a big place was almost impossible. It was one hundred twenty-six square miles and because it was a desert, nobody was ready to purchase it. For fifty years it was on sale and not a single offer came. So it was very easy for them to get it. And to me it suited very much -- it was non-humid, it was cold, very small rain, very small smoke, that too dry and cold. Living there for one and half year my all symptoms disappeared. It was at that point that I asked the American government for permanent residence. But I have not gone with the intention to settle there.

My people are all over the world and I have communes almost in every country.

The Americans were trying to have their own commune; this was their commune, I was there simply guest.

But the government and behind the government, Christianity, both became very disturbed by my presence and the sannyasins. The government was disturbed because we created a certain kind of far higher communism than exists in Soviet Union by simply removing money from the commune. That in the commune nobody can purchase anything. All your needs will be fulfilled by the commune.

You can donate to the commune but you cannot purchase anything in the commune.

And we were an island far away. The closest town was thirty miles. So once the exchange status of money was removed... you may have millions of dollars and I may not have a single dollar -- you are not rich and I am not poor. We are in the same space and in the same boat. You are unnecessarily loaded for your, with your money which cannot purchase any single thing and whatever you can get from the commune, I can get from the commune.

So without bringing any dictatorship, without bringing any government, without bringing any revolution of any sort, just by removing the money inside the commune, suddenly there was nobody poor, nobody rich. This created certainly a trouble in the American politician's mind. People started coming to see the commune, how people are happy, how people are healthy, and how they have managed the desert to become an oasis. We were creating our own food, our vegetables, our fruits, we had our greenhouses, we had our own milk product.

There were five thousand sannyasins, not a single beggar. In fact, two hundred American beggars had joined us and we had accepted them and they felt for the first time that they are being treated as human beings. Otherwise, they were treated as dogs.

It is thought in the world America has created an image that it is the richest country but there are thirty million beggars in America who are on the streets without clothes, without food, without house.

The American politician's fear was that slowly, slowly news media started coming: television, radio, newspapers and visitor started coming just to see that what has happened and why these people are so happy. Because my basic teaching is meditation so people started the day by meditation, then there was a talk by me -- any question anybody asked, then they go for their different works, then a single kitchen for five thousand people -- a scene worth seeing because just fifteen people can manage five thousand people's kitchen and we are wasting millions of women's energy and life just in kitchens. And these fifteen people were chosen as the best cooks, so our people were having the best food possible.

One of the greatest problems for vegetarians... because I am a vegetarian and my sannyasins are vegetarians. One of the problems has been, which vegetarians have no answers to the non-vegetarian, that "Why not a single vegetarian has been able to achieve a Nobel prize? Why not a single vegetarian has been discovered something, invented something, why they are intellectually far behind than the non-vegetarian?" And it is a truth. You cannot deny it. Forty percent of the Nobel prizes go to the Jews, the three Nobel prizes that have come to India were not for people who were vegetarians. All the three persons were non-vegetarians.

It is found that the vegetarian food lacks few proteins which are absolutely necessary for intelligence to grow. So I had added non-fertilized eggs in the vegetarian food as essential. The non-fertilized egg has no life so you are not killing, it is almost vegetable, but it fulfills all the needs. So I angered the vegetarians because to them just the name `egg' is enough to get angry with me. I angered the non-vegetarians because I destroyed their basic argument that man has to remain non-vegetarian otherwise he will lose all intelligence. Now there is no need for man to remain non-vegetarian. If a non-fertilized egg can fulfill all the demands that the body and the mind needs then there is no need to kill any living being just for food. It is ugly, inhuman, anaesthetic, insensitive.

So all kinds of people, for example, Christians were angry because I was turning their people into vegetarians. That I was teaching to my people that alcohol is also a drug, just as marijuana is or L.S.D. is. In Christian countries you make marijuana and L.S.D. illegal, crimes... thousands of young people are suffering in jails, but alcohol is not crime because Jesus was drinking alcohol. That does not make it religious, it is as much a crime as any other. Either make every drug available to people or stop alcohol also. But Christian mind cannot conceive Christ committing a crime. And when I said it, that "It is a crime, not only a crime, but Christians say that `Christ changed water into wine,' that is even more criminal. If somebody is changing water into wine, this man should be locked up."

I was stating simple facts, nobody answered them but they became angry. The politicians were angry because in a communist world I have created a small commune against capitalism. In a Christian world I had created a small oasis of people who did not belong to any organized religion but who were simply religious. My approach is that a scientific man is simply scientific, he is not Hindu scientific, he is not Mohammedan scientific, he is simply scientific. And a religious man is also simply religious. The moment you put an adjective to it you destroy its beauty, its quality -- you bring it down from its great heights.

These things created in their minds and they could not find any logical or legal way to destroy the commune. They became so drastic that they arrested me without any arrest warrant, without even showing me a cause why they are arresting me. They are talking about a democratic, freedom of the individual, respect for the individual and this is the respect for the individual -- that you don't even show him the cause why he is being handcuffed, chained, taken into prison, and if I ask anything the answer is the gun. Twelve guns around me, no answer. And for twelve days they dragged me into, from one jail to another jail, constantly lying that they are taking me to the airport -- and they will take me to another jail.

I asked them, that "If you want to keep me in jail you can keep me in one jail, what is the need... because all your jails are similar. If you want to torture me you can torture anywhere, but I know your trouble because the whole world knows I am in the jail and if something happens to me here then you will be condemned.

So you want to take me to some place that nobody knows."

But the press helped immensely and I came to understand for the first time that against the powers of undemocratic governments the press is the only security for individuals who have no power. The whole press was surrounding their jails, twenty-four hours. In a jail they even tried to force me to change my name. I said, "For what? Because this is absolutely illegal." They wanted me to sign under David Washington. I said, "This is absolutely absurd and you are U.S. marshall.

On your coat is written Department of Justice but I don't see what justice is this and under what law it comes that I should sign under a name which is not mine and I can see your point that you are putting in jail David Washington and you can kill me and nobody will be able to find out what happened to me, where I disappeared, because there will be no record at all. In your files there will be David Washington. I cannot write it. But if you want, you write in your own handwriting."

He had to write because he had to go, otherwise he had to sit with me the whole night. So he had to write.

I said, "You write in your own handwriting, David Washington, and everything fill it.... I will simply sign it." I signed it and I always sign in Hindi.

He looked at it, he could not understand, he said, "What it is?"

I said, "It must be David Washington. I don't know. But this is my sign and you should remember that if anything happens to me this sign will prove that David Washington was not David Washington."

Within three hours they changed my jail again because their policy went wrong.

Immediately the press came to know that they have forced me to sign under a false name.

They knew it perfectly that they have nothing against me so they tried to reach the court which was only eight hours from the place where they had arrested me.

It took twelve days, that eight hour journey... took twelve days, five jails and all kinds of harassment because they knew all my allergies, so they will create every possibility for me to be affected.

They kept me with people who were having dangerous diseases so I can get infected. People who have been living alone for six months and the doctor has not allowed anybody else to be their inmates... they forced me to live with those people. Those people themselves told me that, "Bhagwan, this is absolutely unjust and we are suffering from a certain disease...."

One man was suffering from confirmed herpes and he was dying and he said to me, that "I have been living here alone and without telling you anything they have... and the doctor was present here and the jailer was present and the marshall was present here and they all know it. And you had, they have forced you to live here and this is very infectious disease. And once you get it, you cannot get rid of it."

They knew that it was difficult to prove but how long you can keep me from the whole world news media. They were pressurized that I should be brought to court immediately, as quickly as possible. Finally they had to bring me to the court and in the court they knew that they have nothing to prove against me. So they played a very fascist strategy. They asked my attorneys for negotiation. My attorney said, that "There is no question of negotiations. The man is absolutely innocent. Why we should be negotiating? We should go for a trial, let the judge decide."

But they said, "It will be easier for you and easier for us without trial, we can negotiate." And the negotiation was tricky. The negotiation was: "that if Bhagwan accepts that he is guilty, then we will drop the case, and the court will give him a nominal punishment that for five years you cannot enter America. If he does not accept guilt and he says, `I am not guilty,' then we are not going to give bail on any account. The whole government is determined, five million dollars, ten million dollars, fifteen million dollars -- no amount of money... we are not going to give a bail. Bhagwan will remain in jail as long as the trial continues and the trial can continue for five years, for ten years, for fifteen years, because it is in our hands -- how to go on postponing, changing courts."

They made it clear that they have no case. My attorneys came to me with tears in their eyes, the best attorneys of America, and they said, that "We have never been in such a dilemma. They have proposed a negotiation which is absolutely illegal, ugly, inhuman. And they have made it clear that they don't have any case but they want to punish you. At least they want you to accept that you are guilty, so nobody can say that they arrested you and you were an innocent person. And the problem is: if you don't accept it they may prolong the case as long as they want. If eight hours' journey can be prolonged to twelve days, how long they can prolong the case, we don't know and how much strategy they can play into it -- difficult to say. They will torture you. They can kill you in these ten years. Your whole commune will be in torture, in mental anguish. Your all the sannyasins around the world will be suffering, so we pray you that you simply accept that you are guilty and let this be finished because the government seems to be adamant."

I accepted in the court that I am guilty. And without saying to me, they imposed a fine of four hundred thousand million dollars. That was not part of the negotiations at all. And five years I cannot enter America. I told the judge that, "You need not be so lenient with me. You can make it that in my whole life, at least in this life, I cannot enter America because even if you want, I will not enter America."

And I told the U.S. attorney before I left the court, that "The way you have behaved you have forced me, under oath of speaking only truth and nothing but truth, you have forced me to lie. And then upon that lie you have imposed half a million dollars punishment and five years' punishment to remain outside America. But I am going outside America; I am not going to be silent, I am going to say to the whole world that this is the way your so-called democracies work.

Their faces are just masks, inside they are all fascist. And whenever they come against a person whom they cannot answer, then they start in a desperate way to destroy him."

And I was warned by my attorneys that "Be careful when you go to jail."

I said, "What is the problem? Just to take my clothes..." when I was released by the court. And it was true, what they have heard was found true. When I went into jail the whole ground floor was empty which had never been. There were so many people working, the whole staff. There were not a single person.

I inquired the man who was taking me in, "What is the reason why everybody is absent?"

He said, "Perhaps shifts are changing."

But I said, "I have been in twelve days, shifts have been changed all the twelve days. First the person comes, then the older person leaves. The whole shift has gone, the new shift is not here? It is little suspicious."

He said, "Nothing, there is nothing suspicious."

But he was nervous, he was perspiring. And I said, "Why you are nervous and why you are perspiring?"

He left me in a room with a man who was also alone, to give me my clothes and things. That man was shaking and trembling. I said, "What is the matter? What has happened to the jail today?"

He said, "I have to take the signature of my boss so I will have to go out." This was for the first time in twelve days they have left me alone. Otherwise always two persons with guns were with me. I was chained, my legs were chained, my waist was chained, still there were two people with loaded guns. This was the only time... he left me alone.

After fifteen minutes he came back, gave me the packet, took my signature. I found out that there was no question of anybody's answer, anybody's question or anybody's signature -- only your signature that you have received your things, that was all. There was no question of any boss to signing it. And no boss has signed it.

But the reality is they had put a bomb in that room but it was a timebomb and they were not certain when the court is going to finish. Otherwise their final aim was that if the court leaves me, then the bomb can finish me. And who can put the bomb in a jail inside in a room, except the authorities, except people who are in power, no ordinary person can even reach there!

And these people go on talking about respect for the individual and freedom of the individual.

American experience has been of tremendous value to me that we have yet to be civilized, that civilization and democracy have not yet happened. They have to happen, they are still dreams.

Q: WE HAVE JUST RECEIVED A MESSAGE FROM NEW DELHI SAYING, INDICATING THE POSSIBILITY OF YOUR NOT RETURNING TO INDIA.

YOU MAY GO SOMEWHERE ELSE FROM NEPAL?

A: That's absolutely wrong(?)(or right??) Q: YOUR DISCIPLES WHO CAME TO RECEIVE YOU AT THE AIRPORT DISPLAYED THEIR PLACARDS READING `IN THE LINE OF BUDDHA, A NEW BUDDHA IS WELCOME.' WHICH MEANS THEY CONSIDER YOU AS NEW BUDDHA. DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF AS A REINCARNATION OF BUDDHA, OR NEW BUDDHA?

A: No. If it true that Nepal is the land of Buddha and India has not been right to claim itself the land of Buddha. That privilege and prestige belongs to Nepal.

And `buddha' simply means the awakened one. It is not a personal name.

I am not anybody's incarnation. I am myself. But I am as much awakened as it is possible for human being to be.

So it is perfectly right if somebody calls me a `buddha.' There is nothing wrong in it. And it will be good to come from India to Nepal to pay a visit to the land of Buddha who has been cunningly claimed by India as India's son, which is not true.

Q: BHAGWAN, IS IT CORRECT THAT YOU OWE THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA SOME TAXES?

A: No. Because I don't have any income, how can I have any taxation? I don't have any belongings, no property, no bank account. I am the poorest man in the world. Of course, with richest friends!

So everything that I have belongs to my friends, nothing belongs to me.

So if any taxation is to be paid, it is to be paid by my friends, not by me.

I am simply keep out of law and legalities.

(Transcriber's note: Side A ends abruptly before end of tape. No overlap with Tape side B. There does seem to be a question missing.) A: .... in Fiji.

But I have communes all over the world. I have a commune in Nepal already and I will not have any commune again in which I will be living. I will be having only a small residence with facilities for few friends to come and visit me.

So from all over the world people can come and visit me.

Q: WHERE?

A: Either in India or in Nepal.

Q: BHAGWAN, DID YOU THINK (INAUDIBLE) NEPAL IS THE BEST PLACE FOR YOU TO SETTLE BECAUSE IT IS A HINDU KINGDOM AND VERY PEACEFUL LIFE AND NOT MUCH OF POLITICS(*) AND PROBLEMS AND WEATHER IS ALSO NOT SO COLD AND NOT MUCH OF HUMIDITY?

A: These are considerations are there. And I love the Himalayas, particularly the part that falls under Nepal.

So either I will have a place in the Himalayas here or in the Himalayas in India.

In fact, it is the Himalayas where I will be residing. Where that Himalayas falls in is not my much concern. Those are political lines. Neither Himalaya believes in them nor I believe in them.