Chapter 29

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

INTERVIEW BY EPOCA MAGAZINE, ITALY

ANSWER: Even before my going there, the American sannyasins were trying to find a place for a commune. When I reached there, they thought it will be better that the commune should be in such a place which would be healthful for me as long as I stay there. And it will help them also to consolidate the commune.

But I had not gone there to stay. The problems with my health are such that no cure is possible. All that can be done is, a controlled environment, so I am protected. For example, I have allergies for few things. If they don't come close to me there is no problem, and there is no disease. For example, perfume, dust, any kind of strong smell; now they can be avoided. So for four years in America it was possible to avoid them in the commune. It is difficult to avoid them in any other city. You cannot tell everybody not to use perfume. It was not said to the commune either, but people understood it.

The allergy triggers coughing, sneezing, cold, and finally asthmatic attacks. And then it becomes a longer fit. Then it may take few days to get over it. Then I cannot sleep the whole night, the breathing is difficult. Humidity can cause it.

The American sannyasins have chosen a place which was not humid, but still cold, dry.

I have a bad back, and everything that can be done has been done. But whatever is done to make it better, it becomes worse. Finally we called one of the experts, Dr. Syriax from England, who worked for two days. He is a miracle worker. He has treated people - his hands have a magic touch - and his whole life; he must have been nearabout eighty when he came to see me.

For two days he worked, and finally he said to me that, "You will have to live with it. All that can be done is that you should sit in a certain posture, in a certain chair, so you will not feel the pain. The pain can be avoided just by maintaining a certain posture and a certain chair, a certain angle to the body; but it cannot be cured. So there was no question of going to America for cure.

We had been asking here for a palace in Kutch. Coincidentally, the Maharaja of Kutch had exactly the same problems, and that palace was made for him, to give him a controlled atmosphere - dry, non-humid, cool, and far away from society, city; and he lived in that palace as long as he lived. And he lived without any troubles; all troubles disappeared. Since he has died, nobody has used that palace.

But Morarji Desai was prime minister at that time, and we have been fighting on each point, for almost thirty years. On each single point we have differed. And he is not a man of intelligence. If he cannot find an argument, then he tries cunning methods, power politics.

First he tried that I should be prohibited entering Gujarat - Gujarat is his province and he was chief minister of Gujarat then. But he could not convince the assembly there that for what reason. If he speaks against Gandhism, everybody else is free to criticize him, you are free to refute him; and there seems to be no reason that he should be prohibited from entering the province.

At the time we were looking for this palace in Kutch, he was the prime minister of India, and he again did his non-human strategies - he just told the airforce to put a block on it; that Pakistan is so close that we cannot give that palace to Bhagwan because he will attract thousands of foreigners there, and it is dangerous. And when the army puts a block on anything, then you cannot do anything about it. I tried Himachel, because that too suits me. This air suits me perfectly well, there are no problems. The same thing was done, that China is too close, Pakistan is too close, and we cannot allow so many foreigners coming here, because many may be detectives, many may be planted informers.

When I saw that they will not allow any place to me in India where I can live without unnecessary suffering from allergies, back pain, asthma, it was at that point that I decided that it is better to look somewhere else. America had a good number of sannyasins, and they were already looking for a place to make a commune, so it was very reasonable to tell them to look a place with all these conditions. And they found in Oregon desert exactly the same conditions as exist in Kutch.

But I had not gone to stay there forever. They had given me visa for few months as a tourist. Then I applied more, again for a tourist visa, because I was not thinking to stay there. But side by side, the commune was growing, my health was getting better, and then my people started forcing me that, "If your health is better here, why bother going anywhere else?" And there was no problem, because I fulfilled almost all their categories that are needed for a permanent residence. So I applied for a permanent residence.

There is no question of any fraud, as they proposed before the court, that I had a pre-intention to stay in America and applied for a tourist visa. If I had a pre- intention, I could have applied for direct residency. There is no problem in it. As a man of religion, as a man who is known all over the world, these are their categories, as a philosopher, I had every possibility. There was no need to ask for a tourist visa.

But I had never thought of staying there. And I applied again for a tourist visa, second time, when the first tourist visa was finished. That time also there was no question of remaining there. Otherwise I would have applied for permanent residence. It was in the middle of the second time that was given to me for tourist visa that I applied for change of intention. Now, nobody can say that it is a crime to change your intention. After two and half years living in good health, I have every right to change my intention. You have every right to reject it, but it is not a crime.

For four years they did not say anything - either yes or no. In fact, they are the criminals. Why they allowed a man who is dangerous to stay in the country when they could have said simply "No." But the reason is they were afraid, if they say "No," then I can go to the court, and they have no reason to prove why they are saying no. They could not say yes because of the political pressure.

But these four years were good for the commune to become more solid, to have more blossoming. It does not matter that they have been able to destroy it. What matters, that we have been able to create it, in spite of all their power.

And if we can create against a power like America, we can create anywhere. And they will repent for it. Destroying it, they have destroyed a great opportunity for themselves, a great experiment that has become a success. They could have used it as a model. Their own conscience will never forgive them, and our other communes around the world will prove that you have been idiotic in destroying your own commune which was the best. And still American sannyasins are trying to make another commune, and this time they cannot destroy it, because it will be only American sannyasins. And now they have every knowhow, how to manage, how to create, how to make.

So in every respect, the experiment has been beautiful. I don't think we are losers. We have gained much, much ground.

Q: I WOULD LIKE YOU TO SAY SOMETHING MORE ABOUT THE PROSPECT(*) WHAT WAS THE LINE OF THIS EXPERIMENT, THE BASE, THE SCIENTISM OF(*) THIS WENT ON ON THE RANCH, AND ALSO WHY AMERICA, WHICH IS SUCH A BIG AND POWERFUL COUNTRY BECAME AFRAID OF A SINGLE MAN - A MAN LIKE YOU.

A: First, even the biggest power is based on fear. Power as such is based on fear.

Otherwise, why you should have power. You are afraid and bigger the power, bigger the fear. America is afraid.

Second thing, a single individual has always been the cause of all the revolutions in the world. Great powers have toppled down and disappeared, against the ideas of a single individual. Revolutions are not created by masses. Revolutions are created by single individuals; their insight, their clarity. Masses may follow.

For example the whole idea of communism depends on a single man, Karl Marx.

A single man now dominates almost half of the humanity. Buddhism - a single man influenced the whole of Asia, changed the minds of millions of people for thousands of years. A single man, Adolf Hitler, managed almost to conquer the whole world. So everything that comes into the world comes through individuals. Masses may follow, and there is the fear - that if the commune becomes known to the whole American people, they are bound to follow it.

I have never been in much contact with Americans, except the sannyasins. But in these twelve days when I was in jail, I came in contact with many Americans; jailers, their staff, doctors, nurses, sheriffs, marshalls. And they were all interested that why a single individual is threatening the government that the government is so much worried to throw him out of the country. There must be something. So they were all interested, they all came to see me. And I could see when I explained them that what was the reason, they could see, one jailer said, that was the real communism that they are destroying. What exists in Soviet Union is not real communism.

Your crime is that you created a real communist commune. Now if a jailer can be impressed, and he said, no government can tolerate you, you will be nowhere welcome. You certainly are dangerous, because you can create a situation in which the government looks foolish. They have all the money, all the power, and they cannot do anything. It was strange that in the jails, where hundreds of inmates were there, they all welcomed me, because they have seen me on the television, and they were all showing me two fingers for victory. That was my first experience of coming close to Americans, other than sannyasins. Not a single man, either in the authority, or the inmates of the prison, was against me.

When they understood what I was doing, and what was happening, they said, "We would like to visit sometime." The jailers brought their wives, their children to meet me. The sheriffs brought their families to meet me. One of the sheriffs of North Carolina was an old man, almost cried, tears were in his eyes when I was released from his jail. He said, "We don't want you to be released, because since you have come into the jail, the jail has become a commune, we have started thinking in your way, we have started discussing why the jail cannot become a commune. My deputy sheriff is so much impressed by you that he says, as he retires he is going to the commune. He does not want to live here any more." My nurses, my doctors, they all want to go to the commune. Or they say, "We can change; three hundred fifty people are in the jail. Why we cannot change it into a commune?"

And I told them that, "You have been a sheriff so long, have you ever watched that three hundred fifty people are in the jail. They are given food, they are given clothes, they are given televisions, cigarettes, and they are not given any work.

So the whole day they are playing cards, seeing television. They are even taking one hour every day out, if they want to purchase few things, lollipops, ice-cream, or anything that they want, small things, some money is given to them, they can purchase and they can go out and have a look at the outside world. But what work you are giving them? Do you understand the simple psychology that these people, remaining here for three years, will go out, accustomed to no work, accustomed to get everything that they want. Their only idea will be how to get back into the jail."

And he said, "That is true. That is my whole life experience. They don't live outside more than one or two weeks. They immediately commit any crime, and back they are in jail. They don't want to leave."

So all your jails, to transform people from criminals into human beings, but you are doing just the opposite. You are making these people criminals for their whole life; irresponsible. And they are a burden on the country. There must be millions of people in the jails in the whole country. They are a burden on the tax payer.

He said, "But strange that the idea never came to me."

I said, "Ideas don't come to you, you have to search for them, you have to look in the whole situation and find what is happening, and what is the outcome. These people can perfectly become a beautiful commune; they will work, they will produce. And out of their production, they will live, and they will live equally.

And there is no need for them to be released. If they don't want to be released, let them be in the commune. It is not a jail. Even if people who are not criminals want to join the commune, let them join. Let it grow."

So I could see why American government was so much afraid of a single individual. The fear was, that if I succeed, then they are failures. And I have already succeeded. So the only way was somehow to destroy it, erase it. But they cannot erase it from the memory of those five thousand people who had lived there; those seeds will live in those five thousand people. They cannot erase it from thousands other people who have come and seen it. Each annual festival there was almost twenty thousand people, so it is not easy to erase it; it is not easy to throw me out of the country.

And there was great sympathy all over America. Even people who had no idea of who I am and what I am doing became aware, by putting me into jail they made whole America aware of the commune, aware why government is destroying it; aware of the fascist attitude of the bureaucracy. And all the way, I was loved and appreciated. Not a single person who was against me - in the jails, outside the jails; going from one jail to another jail, both the sides of the road people were standing, throwing flowers, waving hands, that don't be worried.

Because they will not allow media people. The media people are inventive. What they have done - they had put their microphones on a long rod, above the car, so when I come out of the gate I am facing their microphones. They will not allow them, but they cannot prevent them taking the microphone above the car. And they simply wanted to tell me that "We love you, Bhagwan. And whatever is being done to you remember, it is not we who are doing it."

In fact, they have taken a wrong step. They have made America realize that their own government is not in favor of poverty disappearing, of people becoming rejoicing and happy; that their own government is their enemy. And they created great sympathy for me. The sympathy was such that I could have contested for the president, because all the newspapers were full of sympathy, all televisions were full of sympathy, all radios were full of sympathy. The government must have had a shock. They had not realized that this will be the outcome of it.

So I have told my American sannyasins to make another commune, if possible in the same place because we own the place, we will not sell it, everything is ready, you can start a commune there. But start only with the Americans so they cannot do anything. And I have created thousands of people interested who want to join the commune. So it is not the end of the story; it is just the beginning of the story.

The books are being sold more, the tapes are being sold more because more people have become interested; absolutely new people who had no idea of me.

The government has done a great service to me and to my ideology. And they will repent for it, that they did something absolutely foolish. But governments are always doing that kind of thing. They consist of fools, and they think that power is all. It is not.

And whenever love and power come to a direct struggle, in small battles the power may seem to be winning, but the final victory is always of love.

Q: ALL WE KNOW IS THE BASIC REPUTATION OF THIS EXPERIMENT SITUATION. BUT WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU WHAT WAS THE BASIS OF THIS EXPERIMENT AND HOW YOU INTEND TO CHANGE THE QUALITY OF LIFE WITHIN THE SOCIETY.

A: Few things can be pointed at; the very basic. One is, that the family should not be any more the unit of the society. Its time is past. It has done its work. Now it is harmful.

(Tape side B) Commune is dissolution of family. People are living together, thousands of people are living together, but they don't have any attachment to the family.

Even the children are no more the property of the parents. They belong to the commune. The whole commune is their parent, so every man is their uncle, every woman is their aunt. And this is something tremendously significant. A child having five thousand people loving him, in which there are of every race, every religion, every country, every color, will not have prejudices in his life. He will not be anti-Jewish, because he has loved so many Jews in the commune and they were such beautiful people. He will not be against the blacks, because he has known the blacks, that they are lovely; and the color of the skin makes no difference.

Psychologists have discovered that one of the greatest problems before them is that every child becomes fixated with an idea. The boy becomes fixated with the idea of the mother, because that is the only woman he knows. The girl becomes fixated with the idea of the father, and this is one of the most dangerous things.

Because the boy, in his whole life, will try to find his mother in his wife, which is not possible. And he will be frustrated. And the wife will be frustrated, because she is looking for her father, and her husband is not her father. Their qualities are different, they are unique individuals.

All over the world the couples are in continuous fighting, frustration, nagging, bitching, and the psychologists are at a loss what to do, because this is the only problem that comes every day from morning till evening, every hour they are seeing couples who have the same problem. The problem is, because of the fixation. In the commune the fixation will not happen, because the boy will be coming in contact with thousands of women. He will have a vague idea of womanhood, but not a fixated picture. In that vague idea, any woman can fit, because he will not have a certain fixed idea, in which the woman has to fit. He has only a vague notion.

So this is one of the basic grounds, that family slowly slowly dissolves into a bigger whole of thousands of people. It destroys the possibility of almost ninety percent of mental sicknesses, mental diseases; it is not a small thing. It will throw off ninety percent psychotherapists out of their business.

Second thing, marriage has also lived its time. It has not proved a blessing. It has been a bondage, and love cannot live in a bondage. There is a great difference between a bird on the wing in the air, you can catch the same bird and put the bird in a golden cage, but it is not the same bird. Where is the sky? And where is the freedom? You have killed everything that was significant to the bird. It is dead. It has lost all its individuality. Marriage does the same to love.

In a commune, two people love each other, they can live with each other. There is no need for any marriage. Why laws should interfere in people's love? And why society trespass into people's individual lives? They have no right. Two persons love each other, they live with each other. The day they feel that the love has disappeared, because it is one of my basic approaches that everything that is beautiful is impermanent - the flower opens in the morning; by the evening it is gone. But the stone was there in the morning, it is in the evening, it will remain there for eternity. It is already dead. It cannot die again. The flower was alive. So it is a paradox. More intense a love is, soon it will come to an end. The very intensity - it is just like burning the candle from both ends. Naturally it will come to end soon than burning the candle by only one end. That will burn double the time.

Intense love will come to an end soon, but it does not matter. Even if it lasts for few days, few weeks, few months, it gives you so much that marriage cannot give you in many lives. The question is not of time; the question is of intensity.

And when the love disappears, there is no need, no obligation, no duty to remain together; because now begins the ugly part, of quarrelling, of being nasty to each other, because now one feels the other as a chain, binding him, destroying his freedom. And the same is the feeling on the other side. Both have become jailers to each other.

No, there is no need. The moment you feel love is no more there, the best thing is to depart in gratitude, in friendliness, for all those beautiful memories that you lived, and for all that the other has given to you. Why spoil it? Why destroy it?

Keep it in the heart, because it will make your another love more richer, more experienced. And nobody is losing anything. You both have experienced, grown, into a certain dimension and now you are finding that you cannot go together.

The paths separate. Say goodbye.

In a commune it will be a mobile situation. Marriage is a fixed, dead thing. In a commune it will be a mobile situation. There will be no husbands and wives; there will be only friends.

This is the greatest experiment in the whole history of man. To make man free to love, help him to grow in loving, and each love becomes a stepping stone for a higher love. You will fall in love again, but this time you will be more experienced. And you will be grateful to your first lover, because it is because of the first lover that your love now is richer, has more flowers to it, has more fragrance to it. And the same will be the case with the other person. A commune should be a mobile phenomenon.

Twenty-five hundred women, twenty-five hundred men, moving, growing in experience, because each individual can give you some experience that no other individual can give you. People who are tied to marriage never grow up. It is almost as if one is always in the same class. It is absolutely absurd. The marriage is the most ugliest thing that man has invented. And we have to destroy it completely.

Love is enough, law is not needed. And with the marriage gone, you will be surprised how many things disappear. With the marriage gone, there will be no prostitution; it is a by-product of marriage, because you don't love your wife and still you have to live with her. You hate her, and your heart wants some moments at least with someone whom you may not love, but whom you at least do not hate; some moments of playfulness which are impossible with the wife, which are impossible with the husband. You open your mouth and the argument starts, and there is fight. Even great orators in the house remain silent, because to say something means to provoke a quarrel which leads nowhere.

The prostitute will not argue with you. She will try in every way to please you, because you have paid. And she wants you to make as much happy as possible, so that you become a permanent customer. She does not want your love, you know she does not love you, it is a simple business; you give her money, she gives you physical pleasure. It is marriage who has degraded man to this state, that people are buying pleasure with money.

These ugly marriages lead people to become drunkards, these ugly marriages make people to commit suicide, to murder, and between these husbands and wives are growing your children, who are watching every scene. And they are learning that this is what life is all about. They will repeat the same thing in their own way. So generation to generation ugliness goes on as an inheritance. I am utterly against marriage.

Love has no business to interfere, and once marriage is gone, prostitution is gone, divorce is gone; because what divorce will do. Divorce can exist only as part of marriage. And it is strange that society has made divorce as impossible, as difficult as they can. Nobody makes marriages difficult. In fact, that is the point where things should be made difficult. If two persons want to get married, they can go just to the registrar's office and get married. And the idiot registrar does not say to them that first live two years together, and then come. If you are still ready to marry, I will give you the certificate. Otherwise, get lost. No, immediately he gives you the certificate.

And if you want to divorce, then law makes it so difficult. You have to go through so many torturous moments. Either you have to prove your wife is unfaithful, or your wife has to prove that you are unfaithful; and then too the law will tell you first, separation. Two years remain separate. And after two years you come. In these two years you cannot meet. If you meet, that means the period of separation can be lengthened. That means still there is a possibility of marriage remaining valid. So two years, or three years, of separation. You cannot marry while you are separated to another woman because you are not divorced.

The woman cannot marry because she is not yet divorced. So three years you both are hanging, neither married nor divorced. For what this unnecessary torture? If two persons want to separate, in fact two persons are not needed.

Only one person is enough for separation. If the wife wants to separate, even if you don't want to separate it makes no difference. The wife does not want you.

You may want, that is your trouble, that is your problem; but the wife does not want you, she does not want any problem any more.

So in a very reasonable society, only one person will be needed to go for divorce, not two persons. And in fact, there is no need for divorce at all. If marriage is not there, there is no question of divorce. You were never married. So in a commune there is no marriage and no divorce.

And you will be surprised that two of the charges against me for which they fined half a crore rupees, one was that I have been arranging marriages of people; I have been speaking against marriage my whole life, and I had to be fined not a small sum, half a crore rupees, because I have been marriaging people. Only these two were their points, that when I came from India I had the intention to stay here.

I was perfectly ready. I argued with my attorneys that you are not giving me chance. These both are stupid arguments. Nobody can see my intention. I can ask the judge, I am standing before you. See my intention. And I can hit the U.S.

Attorney. Had you seen it before I hit him? Who can see my intention? Now how you can prove that I had the intention to stay in America? Unless you can read minds, there is no way to prove about intentions. And the court can act upon actions, not upon intentions. Because there are millions of people with intentions to murder, people with intentions to commit suicide. But you cannot bring them under crime. It is my joy, I can think to commit suicide every day. But that does not make me a criminal. I can commit as many suicides as I want. Unless I commit it, I am not a criminal. How you can prove my intentions?

And the second thing was marriages. I have not seen for three and half years any sannyasins privately. I was in silence and isolation. So how I can manage people's marriages. And in the first place, I am against marriage. You can punish me and I will enjoy the punishment. You can raise it from half a crore to one crore and I will be absolutely willing to pay for it; that I am against marriage, and marriage is the ugliest institution in existence. But you are punishing me for something which I am absolutely against.

So in the commune there will be a mobility. The society is fixed. There is no mobility.

There was a small sannyasin, Siddhartha. I used to ask his mother, "Where is Siddhartha?"

She will say, "It is very difficult to find out, because he has so many friends, uncles, sisters, aunts, it is weeks that I manage to find him, 'Siddhartha, how are you?' He says, 'Mom, I am perfectly good. How are you? How things are going with the dad?' He sleeps with other people, they give him clothes, other people give him food, and he is not in any need of us. And it is beautiful the way he is growing. He comes once in a while, and we can talk to him not as a child, but as a friend. We had to talk as a friend, because only once in a while he visits. And he brings so many new ideas and so many new things which we were not aware, because he has been visiting so many people. We are not visiting."

Children will grow faster, learn faster, have a wider experience of humanity; and it will be impossible to put them against anybody. Just because you are a Hindu, you have to kill the Mohammedan. That will be impossible.

The third point; we abandoned money in the society, in the commune. Money should not be used in the commune. You use whatever commune can supply, and commune will try to give you as much as you need. If you want to give money, you give money to the commune. But you cannot purchase anything in the commune for money.

Communism has been trying to destroy the gap between the rich and the poor.

Sixty years have passed since Russian revolution. They have destroyed the rich people, but they have not been able to destroy the gap, because in place of rich, now the bureaucracy, the government, the communist party. They have taken the power from the rich, reduced the rich into the poor, the poor have not gained anything. The poor are as poor as ever. But they are happy in a way, because everybody is poor. So there is no jealousy, that somebody is more rich to you.

The poverty has been distributed equally.

But the power elite, they have all the powers, more powers than rich people ever had. So the distinction is there, even it has become bigger. And by simply removing money from the commune, there was nobody rich, nobody poor.

Sometimes, small measurements can create great revolutions. All that is needed is that money should not be used. Then how you can make somebody poor and somebody rich? It is the money. Once there is no money, all are alike. And the commune supplies to everybody whatever is his need.

And it is cheaper. Five thousand people eating in one restaurant. It is cheaper, economical, happier, joyous, because all your friends are there; and if somebody has the idea he is playing his guitar, somebody is dancing if he wants to dance.

And five thousand people enjoying food together. In ordinary society there would have been at least twenty-five hundred kitchens. Now twenty-five hundred kitchens are reduced in one kitchen. Twenty-five hundred women are freed to do something else, something creative, something productive. And all women are not good cooks. In fact, all the literature on the science of cookery, is written by men, not a single book by a women. The best cooks are men.

The woman is caged in cooking, whether she likes it or not. She may like to learn dancing, she may like to create painting, she may like to cultivate the garden. But there is no possibility. Her whole life is the kitchen. And this life you call life?

This is imprisonment. And if the woman becomes angry, it is not a wonder.

So we had the best cooks chosen, who had a natural tendency to cook, who wanted to cook, who loved to cook. So our food was delicious, and very few people are needed to cook. Not twenty-five hundred women. Much can be done by machines. Only few people have to look after them. And everything should be done by the best, and others should be released and free to do their best. So the ultimate outcome of a commune is that everything is the best.

And we can create everything. Just a little understanding, a little intelligence, and anything can be done.

In the commune we were creating our own food, our vegetables, our fruits, our milk products; and it was a joy, because the people who wanted to do it, they were doing it. It was not something like enforced labor, enslaved labor. So it was not labor, it was love. And when you can create more, you can sell it to the society; and in exchange you can have things which you are not producing.

And we were on the point to start industries. We had made a special tent, a winterized tent, which had never been in existence. You can use it in winter, in snow, anywhere, in rains. And it has been made in such a way it can be heated. It can be air-conditioned. It can have an attached bathroom. Even the American air force had become interested. They wanted that we should produce in large numbers, so they can buy.

We had one thousand tents ready made, and you will be surprised that the attorney general of Oregon imposed a fine of one million, one point four million dollars, because we have made a permanent structure without the permission of the government. We asked him, that you send your people and see it is not a permanent structure, it is a tent; and tents don't need anybody's permission. And before putting such a great fine, one million point four, that means nearabout one and half crore rupees; but he won't listen.

I told my people, you just take the tent to the court. There is no need of any argument.

(Tape side C) Just open the bag, put the tent inside the court, it takes ten minutes to fix it, and tell the judge you can come and see. It takes ten minutes to dismantle it, pack it again, and ask the judge, "What do you think? Is it a permanent structure? Can you do this to the White House, in ten minutes making it and unmaking it?"

And the judge simply laughed and he said, "There is no case against you."

But the attorney general seems to be really man of no self-respect. He should have jumped into the ocean and finished himself. Without seeing, and we have been telling him to come and see before you fine us. But he did not feel even ashamed that such a big fine, and the judge simply said, "There is no case. This is a tent."

We were trying, but before we could start creating tents and other things, they destroyed the commune. Otherwise we had many ideas, we had many scientific minds in the commune who had many ideas which can be materialized and sold to the outside world. And in exchange you can get anything that the commune needs. And slowly slowly the commune can produce everything that it needs.

And every commune can be totally self-sufficient, and can have a feeling of freedom, self-respect, and nobody is lower, nobody is higher, nobody is poor, nobody is rich.

People started their life in the morning with meditation, then they listened to me, then they went to work. Then in the evening they danced, they played their instruments. It was certainly a dream come true.

They destroyed a beautiful dream. But we will make that dream come true in other places. It will happen in Italy, it will happen in Germany, it will happen in Switzerland. We will make it come true in many places. They cannot destroy it.

Once it has happened, we know it can happen.

Everywhere the government will behave in the same way. But perhaps they may learn from the American experiment, because the government is condemned by every source, that they have punished an innocent man, and they have punished a commune which has done no harm to anybody.

Good.