Chapter 18

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

QUESTION:* I WAS NOTICING YOUR CALLIGRAPHY ON THE WALL OVER THERE, THE ONE THAT SAYS THE HUMAN HEART IS THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IN THE WORLD.

ANSWER:* That's true.

Q:* WHY?

A:* (laughing) Just listen to your heart, how fast it is beating.

Every Master is a dangerous person. To be near to a Master you have to lose your ego, which is the most difficult thing in the world.

Q:* WHAT IS DANGEROUS ABOUT THE HUMAN HEART?

A:* About ego everything is ugly. But the whole society, education, religion -- they all teach you ambition, and ambition is nourishment for the ego.

The Master's function is to undo whatever the society, religion, culture, has done to you. It is a total deprogramming.

The Master brings you back to the innocence in which you were born. And that is the danger.

Nobody wants to lose knowledgeability, nobody wants to lose his fame, his respectability....

Q:* BUT DANGEROUS FOR WHO?

A:* Dangerous for the ego.

Q:* SO WHEN YOU SAY THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IN THE WORLD, ARE YOU SAYING DANGEROUS IN THE SENSE OF THREATENING THE WORLD AS IT IS? SOCIETY AS IT IS?

A:* Yes. It has to be changed totally. As it is, it is sick, insane.

Q:* YOU DON'T FOLLOW ANY PARTICULAR LINEAGE OR ANY PARTICULAR TRADITION, AND I WONDERED WHAT YOU COULD SAY ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A LOT OF THINGS YOU DO ARE VERY TRADITIONAL.

A:* I don't follow any tradition. And anybody who follows any tradition can never arrive to know the reality.

All traditions are dead. Don't make the distinction that you are talking about:

living traditions. Tradition means that which is dead. Once it may have been living.

Q:* WHAT ABOUT A LINEAGE OF SPIRITUALITY, A LINEAGE OF STUDENTS AND TEACHERS WORKING TOGETHER FROM ONE GENERATION TO ANOTHER, SUCH AS YOUR STUDENTS HERE? WHO KNOWS WHAT IT'LL CARRY ON TO IN THE NEXT GENERATION? BUT HOPEFULLY IF THEY HAVE SOME KIND OF REALIZATION, IT WOULDN'T JUST STOP WITH THEM.

A:* There is no possibility for anybody to carry my experience to another generation. In fact, it is impossible for me to express it to my own disciples. It is inexpressible. All that can be done is, it can be indicated, not explained.

Q:* I DON'T MEAN EXPLAINED, I MEAN TRANSMITTED -- BY CREATING THIS TYPE OF A SITUATION, FOR INSTANCE, FOR PEOPLE TO REALIZE THEIR MINDS OR THEMSELVES.

A:* Yes. Devices and situations can be created, but when the person will realize the truth it will be his own. It will not be my truth.

So I can help to create a situation in which he realizes his truth, but it is not my truth. And, hence, truth never becomes a tradition because it never becomes a theory, a philosophy, a theology.

That student in his own way may create situations, may help people, but they will be realizing their truth.

Q:* WHAT I WAS SPEAKING OF WAS THE FACT THAT ENLIGHTENED ENERGY OR ENLIGHTENMENT CAN CONTINUE FROM ONE GENERATION TO ANOTHER....

A:* There is no way. It is not something that can be given from one to another as inheritance. That's why truth always remains new, fresh. It never becomes old.

Millions of people may have experienced, but it was their truth, their experience.

Q:* WELL, ISN'T THERE SOMETHING ABOUT TRUTH THAT'S UNIVERSAL AND TIMELESS?

A:* There is something which is universal. There is something which is similar, but the more emphatic thing is its uniqueness.

Now, let me say it in this way: the uniqueness of truth is universal so whenever one realizes it, it is unique, his own -- yet universal because it is always unique and always fresh.

Q:* SO YOU DON'T SEE ANYTHING VALID IN SPIRITUAL LINEAGES, THEN, OF PEOPLE STUDYING WITH MASTER-DISCIPLE RELATIONSHIPS?

A:* There is nothing which can be given.

Q:* BUT THERE CAN BE SOMETHING THAT CAN BE EMULATED.

A:* No. All that can be given, transpired, emanated, will be only very superficial and psychological. It will not be spiritual.

Q:* WELL THEN WHAT ABOUT YOUR STUDENTS, IF THEY BECAME ENLIGHTENED? WOULDN'T THAT HAVE SOME CONNECTION WITH YOU?

A:* Some gratitude, not any relationship. Gratitude is not a relationship.

Q:* BUT WOULDN'T YOU HAVE HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH THAT AS AN INSTIGATOR OR A CREATOR OF SITUATION?

A:*... I have nothing to do with it.

Q:* WELL THEN WHY DO YOU HAVE RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* I enjoy it. To make the effort to create the situations in which people can become afire.

Q:* THEN YOU ARE CREATING A SITUATION, YOU ARE CONNECTED WITH THEM IN THAT WAY.

A:* Just in a very outside way. The flame is their own. It is already there. All the devices are just strategies to awaken you.

Q:* BUT DO YOU THINK THAT THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN AWAKENED OR THEY MIGHT BE AWAKENED IF THEY WEREN'T IN THIS SITUATION, IF THEY WERE JUST LIKE SOMEWHERE LIKE NEW YORK CITY OR SOMETHING?

A:* There is every possibility they may be awakened. There is every possibility they may not be awakened here. It is such an unpredictable and mysterious experience. I had never a Master.

Q:* YOU DIDN'T STUDY WITH ANYONE?

A:* No. Life itself was enough.

Q:* BUT DID YOU STUDY DIFFERENT TRADITIONS?

A:* No tradition. I have studied all the traditions. But they are dead words. They don't help you. On the contrary, they can hinder. If you become too much attached to those words, you become too much knowledgeable, you can become a scholar but you cannot become enlightened.

Q:* BUT DON'T YOU THINK THAT THERE IS WISDOM CONTAINED IN THE TEACHINGS OF THE BUDDHA AND LAO TZU AND SOME OTHER... I MEAN, ALL OVER THE RANCH HERE THERE IS....

A:* Nothing. Lao Tzu begins his book -- he wrote only one book and that to be under compulsion. His whole life he never wrote.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THE BUDDHA WAS AWAKENED, WAS ENLIGHTENED?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WELL THEN WHY AREN'T HIS TEACHINGS VALID TODAY THEN?

WHY AREN'T THE TEACHINGS OF THE BUDDHA VALID?

A:* No teaching is valid. Every teaching is bound to be far away from the true experience. The very nature of it has to be understood.

You experience love. Now there is no way to say what that experience is. You may be very articulate, you may be a great poet, but still you cannot express the experience of love itself. Whatever you will say will be about love, it will not be love itself.

Q:* BUT THEN WHY DID THE BUDDHA AND CHRIST AND ALL THOSE OTHER TEACHERS GO OUT INTO THE WORLD AND TEACH, THEN?

A:* That was their device. I have been teaching for thirty years. That is my device, but it can be useful only while I am here. It is my device, I can go on improving upon it, changing it according to the disciple. So you will find thousand and one contradictions because it is not describing the truth, it is more or less creating a situation for different categories of people.

Q:* SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS THAT IT'S VALID TO HAVE A TEACHER WHILE THE TEACHER IS ALIVE, BUT THAT THAT TEACHER`S TEACHINGS CANNOT BE PUT INTO SOME KIND OF STRUCTURE AND CARRIED ON TO ANOTHER GENERATION.

A:* There is no way. Up to now, every effort has failed.

Q:* WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S SO?

A:* The very nature of experience is such that it cannot be put into words. The experience happens in a state of wordless consciousness. To translate it into the world of words is a very long distance.

Q:* WELL, WHAT IF YOU HAD A MAJOR DISCIPLE THAT HAD A MAJOR ENLIGHTENMENT EXPERIENCE? WOULDN'T THEY BE IN A POSITION TO GO AND TEACH OTHER PEOPLE? AND WHAT IF THEY HAD ANOTHER STUDENT THE SAME WAY?

A:* Unless they are enlightened.... And there is no partial enlightenment. If somebody is enlightened he will create his own devices.

Q:* BUT SEE, WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT BECOMES TRADITION.

A:* No, it is not a tradition because he will create his own devices. He will not use my devices. He cannot.

Q:* BUT HE GOT THAT FROM YOU. HE MIGHT HAVE BECOME ENLIGHTENED BECAUSE HE WAS WITH YOU.

A:* No, not necessarily. He would have become enlightened anywhere. Once he becomes enlightened he understands that all devices were meaningless. It was just....

A house is on fire. The children are playing inside. All the neighbors are around the house shouting to the children to come out, but they are so engaged in playing inside, they don't listen.

Then the father comes from the shop and he could not believe what is happening. All his children are inside, and the whole house is on fire. Then suddenly he remembers his children has told him to bring few toys: railway trains, small cars, other toys. He shouts that, "I have brought the railway train you wanted, the toy you wanted, the car you wanted! Come out!"

He has not brought anything. The children, who were not listening to anybody that the house is on fire -- because they were small children, they did not understand even the meaning of the house on fire -- they suddenly came running out of the house and they started asking, "Where are the toys?"

The father said, "I will bring the toys tomorrow. Today it was only a device to bring you out. The house is on fire. Look at the house."

Now the child... the children understand that the father has been lying, but his lying has saved them. They are grateful that he lied.

All the teachers have been lying. There is no other way. Truth cannot be said, so whatever you say is bound to be untrue.

Q:* BUT THEN WHY ARE YOU TEACHING?

A:* Hmm? Because those children have to be brought out of the house. Toys or no toys does not make any sense. And once they are out, they will understand.

Q:* SO BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, YOU'RE JUST CREATING A SITUATION FOR THEM TO REALIZE THEMSELVES?

A:* Yes. And all situations are just arbitrary. In other words, they are all lies.

Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THIS IS A LIE?

A:* Yes. Only lies can be said. Truth remains silent, cannot be said. So you have to read the truth between the words and between the lines, but never read it in the words and in the lines. There you will find only lies -- beautiful lies.

When a man like Buddha or Lao Tzu speaks, even he is speaking a lie, he is a Master-mind. He speaks a beautiful lie.

Q:* SO BASICALLY WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, THE FACT OF SPEAKING IT MAKES IT A LIE, THE FACT OF EXPRESSING IT.

A:* Yes. Certainly.

Q:* IN OTHER WORDS, YOU CAN'T EXPRESS....

A:* Yes, there are experiences which cannot be expressed. but people can be led to those experiences by creating certain situations.

For example, you are asleep. I can go on telling to you that, "You are asleep, please wake up." But a person who is fast asleep is not supposed to listen to you.

It is better, bring ice-cold water and pour a bucketful on his face. Although that bucketful of ice-cold water has nothing to do with sleeping or awakening , but it will wake him up.

In the beginning, perhaps, he may be angry. But soon he will feel the gratitude.

The Master's work is really very strange. He has to continuously balance that he does not hurt the disciple too much that he simply escapes. And he has to hurt, certainly. So as the disciple becomes more and more closer, he hurts deeper and deeper.

Q:* IS THAT WHAT'S GOING ON WITH YOUR WITH YOUR DEPARTED DISCIPLES, THE ONES THAT LEFT?

A:* With everybody it is going on. Anybody who is a disciple of me is forever a disciple.

Q:* DO YOU STILL CONSIDER SHEELA AND THE OTHER PEOPLE WHO LEFT HERE TO BE YOUR DISCIPLES?

A:* Certainly they are my disciples... turned criminals, that's another thing.

Q:* WELL, HOW COME IF THEY'RE YOUR DISCIPLES YOU CALL THEM FASCIST?

A:* Yes, my disciples are of various types. There are democrats, there are communists, there are fascists. It is a whole world.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT YOUR PRESENCE IN SOME WAY IS WITH THEM NOW OR THAT THEY'RE HAUNTED BY YOU OR ANYTHING?

A:* They will be haunted by me wherever they go. They cannot forget me.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THEY'LL HAVE TO COME BACK TO YOU IN PHYSICAL FORM?

A:* Yes, I will be certainly very happy.

Q:* YOU THINK THEY WILL COME BACK THOUGH?

A:* That is difficult to say. But my doors are open. My whole commune will be happy. It does not matter what they did. That is the function of law, to take care about it. That is not our business. We don't take the law in our hands.

As persons, we respect them, love them. If they come back, they will be in the commune. And I will suggest them that, "You go and confess your crimes before the court and ask for the punishment, and be clean of it. It is better to remain three years in jail and come out clean -- the whole commune will be there to receive you back with garlands, rejoicing, dancing -- rather than your whole life carrying a burden in the heart, hiding from one place to another place like criminals.

Q:* WELL, WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO MAKE ALL THIS PUBLIC? WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST TRY TO TAKE CARE OF IT WITHIN THE COMMUNITY HERE? WHY DID YOU ANNOUNCE IT TO THE PRESS AND TO THE AUTHORITIES?

A:* It was absolutely necessary. No crime should be allowed. And particularly from people who are supposed to be meditators it is even more criminal. If other criminals get three years imprisonment, then these people should get six years imprisonment -- at least double -- because here they were to meditate, here they were not to commit all sorts of crime.

Q:* BUT YOU DON'T FEEL THAT ANY CONNECTION BETWEEN YOU AND THEM HAS BEEN BROKEN BY ALL THIS?

A:* No, it cannot be broken. It is impossible. Once a person has received my love, knows that I will be loving always, whatever he does makes no difference. My love is unconditional. Your action is irrelevant. You have committed crime in the eyes of the law; to me you are the same person. If the law forgives you, I have nothing to say about it.

Q:* DID YOU HAVE SOME FEELING THAT THINGS WEREN'T THE WAY THEY SHOULD BE WITH, SAY, SHEELA, FOR INSTANCE?

A:* Not about Sheela or her group. My concern is more about the attorney general of Oregon. He is more interested in destroying the commune rather than capturing the criminals and punishing them. So he is delaying the whole process.

Even federal government agencies became fed up with him because he goes on delaying unnecessarily. The more you delay, the things will become more complicated.

When all the proofs are there and every evidence has been given, eyewitnesses have given their testimony, now what is the reason that you are not trying to catch them while they are in the countries where you have connections, treaties that they will capture them if they are criminals?

They can move to countries where you don't have any treaty and they will not capture them. It is very simple to move from West Germany to East Germany.

Once they are in East Germany you cannot do anything.

Q:* YOU THINK THAT'S WHERE THEY MIGHT BE HEADED?

A:* That must be in their mind. If... but the attorney general has something else in his mind. His effort is somehow to give them immunity.

His agents must be contacting them, because they are freely moving without any fear of being caught. His effort is to give them immunity, bring them back to America and dump all the crimes on innocent sannyasins so his purpose is served: he can demolish the whole commune.

Q:* YOU MUST HAVE SEEN SHEELA DAY AFTER DAY WHILE ALL THIS WAS HAPPENING. DID YOU PERCEIVE A CHANGE IN HER STATE OF MIND?

A:* I could see only one thing, because for the last six months, since I started speaking, she has almost not been here. Either she was in Australia taking care of the commune there or in Japan or in Germany or in England or in Switzerland.

She will come for one or two day but will not come to see me. And very easy excuse is, because I am allergic to very small things, so simple excuse is that she is having cold.

Q:* WELL, WHY DIDN'T YOU SORT OF DEPOSE HER, TAKE HER AWAY FROM HER POSITION OF AUTHORITY HERE?

A:* She was... while she was in power, nobody has said anything against her criminal acts. she has removed all people who could have been probable competitors. She has put in all powerful positions just her own people, a group of twenty people, and...

Q:* YOU KNOW HER VERY WELL. DID YOU THINK THAT SHE WAS CAPABLE OF EVER DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS?

A:* Everybody is capable of doing something like that if that much opportunity is given. She was just a hotel waitress when she came to me, and suddenly she had two hundred fifty million dollars in her hands. Now, it can turn anybody's mind.

She was just an ordinary servant in a restaurant and suddenly she saw one million sannyasins around the world respecting her in my name, because she was my secretary and I was in isolation and in silence. So she was speaking on my behalf.

So around the world she was being respected, that she had never dreamt of.

Suddenly the very human nature, lust for power....

Q:* SO YOU DIDN'T THINK SHE WAS MORE CAPABLE OF THAT THAN SOME OTHER PERSON? I MEAN, YOU DIDN'T THINK SHE HAD THOSE PARTICULAR TENDENCIES...

A:* Everybody has it. Unconsciously everybody is full of the desire for power.

Q:* A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE IT BUT WOULD NEVER ACT ON IT EVEN IF THEY WERE....

A:* Because they don't have the opportunity.

Q:* BUT EVEN IF THEY DID HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY....

A:* No, I have never seen a single person who has the opportunity and has not acted.

Q:* SO IF SOMEBODY ELSE FROM HERE WAS IN THAT SAME POSITION THEY COULD DO THE SAME THING ALL OVER AGAIN?

A:* Certainly, if the same opportunity is given.

Q:* SO YOU WON'T LET THAT OPPORTUNITY BE GIVEN AGAIN?

A:* No. I have decentralized the whole power situation. It is no more now in one hand. Now ten corporations' heads have equal power. The power is distributed.

The religion I have declared dead, so nobody is a high priestess of a religion, so nobody can create another Vatican.

And I have told my sannyasins to choose people who are coming from super-rich families, so money does not drive them crazy, one thing. They know money perfectly well.

Choose very educated people, intelligent, creative people, so that if they want to become famous they need not do criminal acts. They can be creative and be famous. A person who cannot be creative and wants to be famous, then there is no other way than to become a Mafia.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT NOW, WITH SHEELA AND THE OTHER PEOPLE GONE WHO WERE NEGATIVE INFLUENCES, THAT RAJNEESHPURAM WILL GROW AND MORE PEOPLE WILL COME HERE?

A:* Certainly. More people will be coming here because I have withdrawn all outside hindrances. For example, now people can be initiated in any color of clothes they want to wear they wan wear. Mala if they want to wear....

Q:* WHY DO YOU HAVE YOUR DISCIPLES WEAR A PICTURE OF YOU AROUND THEIR NECK?

A:* It was necessary. In the beginning it helped the movement to become integrated all around the world.

Q:* BUT DOESN'T THAT ENCOURAGE SOME SENSE OF WORSHIP?

A:* No, because I am here to destroy that sense of worship. Now I have withdrawn that too. Now it is up to everybody else. Whatever color he wants, he can use. The only thing that remains is the method of meditation, which is something inner. Nobody knows what you are doing inside.

Q:* COULD YOU TELL ME ABOUT YOUR METHOD OF MEDITATION?

A:* I have one hundred twelve methods of meditation.

Q:* ARE THEY ONES THAT YOU'VE BORROWED FROM OTHER TRADITIONS OR ONES THAT YOU'VE CREATED ALL YOURSELF?

A:* I have created my own. These one hundred twelve methods are used by all the traditions in the East -- not all the methods by one tradition. One method is enough for one tradition. These one hundred twelve are exhaustive.

Q:* IF SOMEBODY DOESN'T STICK WITH ONE THING AND THEY GO FROM ONE TO THE NEXT TO THE NEXT, HOW DO THEY EVER GET A CHANCE TO REALLY DISCOVER WHAT ONE IN...?

A:* They are available. I have spoken on one hundred twelve methods -- they are available -- explained how they have to be done. And anybody can choose any method. And I have developed many methods of my own which are available in the university, which are being taught. People are meditating and choosing their own.

One method is needed. Any can be chosen. The basic element running through all the methods is witnessing.

Q:* WHAT IS WITNESSING?

A:* Whatever you are doing....

For example, right now you are writing. You can write in two ways. The ordinary way that you always write.... You can try another method: you can write it and you can also inside witness that you are writing it.

Q:* DOES THAT MEAN SOME KIND OF DETACHMENT?

A:* A detachment. You are a little distant, away, watching yourself writing.

So any act, just moving my hand, I can watch. Walking on the road, I can watch myself walking. Eating, I can watch.

So whatever you are doing, just remain a witness.

Q:* BUT DOESN'T THAT HAVE A TENDENCY TO DEVELOP SOME KIND OF SUPER-EGO, A WATCHER, A WATCHER, A WATCHER?* A:* Not at all. If you have any ego, it will destroy it, because this watching is very much poisonous to the ego. It is not ego that watches. The ego is absolutely blind. It cannot watch anything. You can watch your ego.

For example, somebody insults you and you feel hurt, and your ego feels hurt.

You can watch it. You can watch that you are feeling hurt, your ego is feeling hurt, that you are angry. And you can still remain aloof, detached, just a watcher on the hills. Whatever goes on in the valley you can see.

So all these methods are basically different ways of witnessing. I have condensed in a very simple way. First, watch your actions of the body. Second, watch your actions of the mind: thoughts, imaginations. Third, watch your actions of the heart: feelings, love, hate, moods, sadness, happiness.

And if you can succeed in watching all these three, and as your witnessing grows deeper and deeper, a moment comes that there is only witnessing but nothing to witness. The mind is empty, the heart is empty, the body is relaxed.

In that moment happens something like a quantum leap. Your whole witnessing jumps upon itself. It witnesses itself, because there is nothing else to witness.

And this is the revolution which I call enlightenment, self-realization. Or you can give it any name, but this is the ultimate experience of bliss. You cannot go beyond it.

Q:* SO DO YOU THINK THAT A PARTICULAR FORMAL MEDITATION IS NECESSARY FOR THIS, OR DO YOU ENCOURAGE PEOPLE MORE TO JUST DO IT IN THEIR EVERYDAY LIFE?

A:* This is the simplest. And because it can be done without in any way interfering with your everyday life, because it is something that you can go on doing the whole day....

Any other method you have to take some time apart for it. And any method that needs one hour or half an hour to sit and do it is not going to help much, because twenty-three hours you will be doing just the opposite. And whatever you have gained in one hour will be washed away in twenty-three hours.

This is the only method that you can continue around the clock. While falling asleep you can go on witnessing, witnessing, that the sleep is coming, coming, coming, that it is getting darker and the body is relaxing. And a moment comes when you can watch that you are asleep. And still there is a corner, a space in you which is awake.

When you can watch yourself twenty-four hours, you have arrived. Now there is nothing to be done. Then witnessing has become natural to you. You don't have to do it. It will be simply like breathing -- happening to you.

This is my basic method. But there are other methods. If people feel that this is difficult for them, they can try other methods. All are available.

Q:* DO YOU YOURSELF BELIEVE IN NON-VIOLENCE?

A:* I don't believe in non-violence. It is not a question of belief. I am non-violent.

One who knows himself cannot be violent.

Q:* WELL, IN THAT CASE, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IT'S NECESSARY TO HAVE GUNS TO PROTECT YOU?

A:* It is necessary because the people around are not non-violent.

Q:* ISN'T NON-VIOLENCE SOMETHING THAT, SAY, IN MAHATMA GANDHI'S CASE...?

A:* Absolute nonsense. Mahatma Gandhi was one of the most violent men of this century.

Q:* I'VE HEARD THAT BEFORE.

A:* Yes. So don't mention his name. And he....

Q:* YOU MEAN VIOLENT IN HIS OWN PERSONAL LIFE?

A:* Yes, in his own personal life he was violent. He was violent with his family.

He was violent with his disciples. He was in every way violent to the whole country.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT INDIA HAS A LOT OF PROBLEMS NOW BECAUSE OF HIM?

A:* Certainly. He is the cause.

Q:* THIS IS CAUSE OF THE PARTITION AND ALL THAT?

A:* He caused the partition, because Jinnah was a very intelligent man and would have agreed with any intelligent man. He was not in any way a fanatic Mohammedan. Gandhi drove him to become a fanatic Mohammedan, because Gandhi was a fanatic Hindu.

It was Gandhi's mahatmahood that created the idea in Jinnah's mind that if India remains one, then Hindus are going to rule forever. And Mohammedans have no chance here because they will always be minority and Hindus will always be majority.

And this man Gandhi is exploiting religion, and he is simply a politician. He learned the whole technique. He started exploiting religion for his politics.

The division came because of Gandhi. After the division, almost one million people were killed because of Gandhi. This was the repressed violence that Gandhi has been repressing for thirty years continuously that exploded, because once British government was gone there was nobody to control.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW IS HAPPENING WITH THE SITUATION WITH THE SIKHS IN INDIA?

A:* My own opinion is that the Sikhs should be allowed an independent country.

You have basically accepted the principle when you accepted Pakistan. You have accepted the principle that any religion who wants to become a separate entity -- and Sikhs can never be majority in a overwhelming majority of Hindus -- they have every right to have their own country.

Q:* DO YOU FEEL THAT THEY'RE BEING PERSECUTED BY THAT SAME TYPE OF BRAHMANIC CULT, THE BRAHMIN CLASS OF, SAY, FIRST INDIRA GANDHI, NOW HER SON -- THE SAME TYPE OF THING THAT HIERARCHY....

A:* Sikhs don't have any hierarchy.

Q:* I KNOW, BUT THE BRAHMINS DO.

A:* Brahmins are part of Hinduism. In fact, Sikhism is a revolt against Brahmins.

Q:* BUT DO YOU FEEL THAT THE GOVERNMENT NOW IS PUNISHING THEM FOR REVOLTING AGAINST...?

A:* Certainly, because all politicians want their countries to be as big as possible because that gives them power.

My own... because in India before it became a slave country -- it has never been one country.

In Buddha's time twenty-five centuries ago there were two thousand kingdoms in India. All have their languages, all have their cultures, all have their different kind of clothes. India has never been one country.

Q:* WHAT THE GOVERNMENT'S DOING NOW, TALKING ABOUT UNITY AND NATIONAL UNITY AND CLAMPING DOWN ON ALL THE MINORITIES. WHAT IS THAT ABOUT?

A:* This is all politics. Politicians always want more and more numbers. Gandhi and others very unwillingly became ready that Pakistan should be divided.

It was their old age that decided it. Seeing it, that if they don't decide then they are never going to be free in their life. They were all becoming old. Gandhi died, was assassinated after one year. Jinnah died after two years.

Q:* DO YOU THINK INDIA RIGHT NOW IS WORSE OFF THAN IT WAS UNDER THE BRITISH?

A:* Certainly worse. And Lord Mountbatten, the last viceroy who divided India, who was sent to India to make it independent, did a real lousy job.

You divide a country without even thinking that half of the Pakistan will be one thousand miles away. Half of the Pakistan will be on this side, in the West, half in the East. How they are going to remain one?

Not long enough. And that's what happened. Soon Bangladesh became independent from Pakistan.

And before you divide a country you should make it certain that under your control the population moves.

The whole point was that Mohammedans should move to Pakistan and Hindus should move to India. That was never done.

Principally it was decided and Mountbatten simply left with his forces. Now there was nobody to manage both the countries. Mohammedans simply started killing Hindus in Pakistan. Hindus started killing Mohammedans in India. One million people were killed very brutally. Women were raped in thousands.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK'S THE FUTURE FOR INDIA, THEN?

A:* There is no future.

Q:* YOU THINK IT'S GOING TO FALL APART?

A:* Sooner the better. If anybody asks my advice, I would like... India is right now thirty states. Each state is big enough to be an independent country like Holland or Germany or Italy or England. Every state is big enough, has its own culture, has its own language, is not willing in any way to have a national language. What is the point of keeping all these people unnecessarily forced together?

And they have been fighting. Assam has been fighting for forty years continuously to be independent.

Q:* DO YOU THINK INDIA IS UNDER THE SOVIET INFLUENCE?

A:* It is. And there is no way for it because Pakistan is under the influence of America. China is making friendship with America. And India is just between these two enemies. There is no way. These two enemies are forcing India to be with Soviet Union.

Q:* SO IT'S ALL JUST A BIG MESS.

A:* Yes.

Q:* SO DOES THAT MEAN YOU'RE NOT GOING BACK THERE?

A:* I am not going. I am not going anywhere. I am going to be here.

And my suggestion for India is that let every state which wants to be free become a free country. And those states who want to remain together, let them. Perhaps it may cut India to its half size, but it will also cut India's problem to half size.

Q:* BUT KNOWING HOW CORRUPT POLITICAL LIFE IS IN INDIA, EVEN MORE SO THAN IN THIS COUNTRY MAYBE, DO YOU THINK THAT'LL HAPPEN WITHOUT TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF BLOODSHED?

A:* It is corrupt. It is bound to be because India has no experience of politics. For at least two thousand years it has been slave. It has no experience of politics.

Suddenly politics became available and the people who were fighting for independence had no idea what you are going to do after independence.

That happens in many situations. People fight for revolution and nobody bothers what you are going to do after revolution.

Q:* WELL, WHAT ABOUT ALL YOUR DISCIPLES IN INDIA? DO YOU FEEL THEY SHOULD GET OUT OR STAY THERE?

A:* No, there is no need. They are perfectly doing well. There is no need. Just they are creating small communes in different places and sannyasins are gathering together in the communes.

Q:* HOW MANY SANNYASINS DO YOU HAVE IN INDIA?

A:* In India there must be at least three hundred thousand sannyasins.

Q:* ALL OVER THE COUNTRY?

A:* All over the country.

Q:* HOW ARE THEY TREATED? I MEAN, HOW DO PEOPLE RESPOND TO THEM?

A:* People are afraid of them just as they are afraid everywhere. Here in America, a nuclear power, the world's biggest power is afraid of five thousand sannyasins because they have thirty semi-automatic guns.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE MOST BASIC ISSUE, BASIC QUESTION, IN PROMOTING WORLD PEACE?

A:* It is very simple. Nations should disappear. UNO should become a world government. All the armies of the world and all nuclear weapons and everything should be surrendered to UNO.

Just if the world is one the possibility of third world war can be avoided.

And UNO is impotent just as nations, League of Nations, was impotent, for the simple reason because they don't have any power. Have all nations represented, but all nations should surrender their war mechanism, war technology, their armies, to UNO.

Q:* BUT GIVEN THE FACT THAT NATIONS ARE SUPER SUPER SUPER EGOS, SUPER... BASED ON TERRITORIALITY AND SO FORTH, THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ANYWHERE IN THE NEAR FUTURE.

A:* That will have to happen, otherwise there is the other alternative: global suicide. Compared to that, this is the simpler solution.

If third world war happens, then all life as such disappears from the earth.

Q:* WHICH DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN? DO YOU THINK THAT LIFE IS GOING TO CONTINUE OR DO YOU THINK WE'RE GOING TO COMMIT GLOBAL SUICIDE?

A:* I think it is going to continue. Life is always more powerful than death and it will always find ways to continue. And when it comes to such a critical moment, the nations will have to disappear -- not life.

The world government is the only solution. And the world government is not only a solution for war, it is also a solution for poverty, population and other problems -- because it is a very insane state right now.

Thirty million people in America are suffering from overeating. Now, there are countries -- Ethiopia, one thousand people are daily dying because they don't have to eat anything. Fifty percent people in India have only one meal a day, and that too is not going to last long. By the end of this year half of the India will be in the same situation as Ethiopia.

Q:* YOU'RE FOR REDISTRIBUTING THE RESOURCES....

A:* Yes, if the world is one, then naturally everything can be easily redistributed, changed.

India has immense labor power, very cheap. You can create great industries in India. And all that is so costly in America can be reduced to its tenth. Just because the labor is so cheap you can create everything in India. The poor will be fed, the unemployed will have employment, and you will have cheap things as good as you are having them now, unnecessarily paying so much money. And in the same way everything is.

Just few months before in Europe, they drowned thousands of tons of oranges and other fruits into the ocean. At that very time, people were dying in Ethiopia.

And they are drowning in the ocean thousands of tons of fruit, because to keep it in the market the price goes down. Just to drown them, they had to waste one hundred thousand dollars. But they were not ready to give it to Ethiopia.

Q:* HOW DO WE GO ABOUT CHANGING THINGS TO MAKE THINGS MORE BALANCED, MORE EQUITABLE?

A:* Just people have to be made aware of the whole situation, that there is no need of nations, that we have come to a point -- science has made the world so small that now there is no need to divide it into nations.

And our needs are one.

And we have enough, and if we don't prepare -- all the nations are preparing for war. And all the nations are putting their seventy-five percent national income for war preparations. If the world is one, the question of war simply disappears and seventy-five percent income of all the nations becomes available to you.

All the scientists who are engaged in creating death to humanity can start creating something for life, for people's comfort.

This is simply a question of making a worldwide campaign of making people aware.

Q:* BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY YOU WERE A UTOPIAN OR A IDEALIST OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

A:* Whatever they say, that does not matter. I am quite notorious, so nothing matters what they say: idealist, utopian. What I am saying is very realistic.

Otherwise they can propose. If they have any more realistic idea that can prevent war and that can divert our energies towards making life more comfortable rather than creating death, they should propose some idea. If I am an utopian, an idealist, then some realist should come ahead. I have not seen any realist coming out.

So it seems, whether you call me idealist or utopian, I am the only one who is giving a solution.

Q:* BUT WHAT I MEANT IS THAT THE POWERS THAT HAVE CONTROL RIGHT NOW ARE IN MUCH MORE ENTRENCHED THAN SHEELA WAS, FOR INSTANCE.

A:* They are all trembling inside, all those big powers. Things have changed totally.

In the old days war was one thing. Somebody was going to be victorious, somebody was going to be defeated, and there was some joy in it. But now nobody is going to be victorious. All are going to be dead.

So war has lost all meaning. War losing all meaning is a very great phenomenon.

We have to change our whole structure, because our whole structure was geared around war.

Q:* SO DO YOU FEEL OPTIMISTIC ABOUT THE CHANCES OF THE WORLD FOR SURVIVAL AND...?

A:* Certainly, because I can see that nobody is ready to die, neither America nor Soviet Union nor anybody else. If they don't want to die, they will have to come to some negotiation that makes war impossible.

And the only way is that UNO becomes really the power and everybody surrenders to UNO. Everybody has its representative there. All their problems UNO has to solve.

Q:* BUT THAT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY SOCIETY HAS ALWAYS BEEN.

A:* Because the situation has changed, so old thinking and old ideas won't work.

Q:* DO YOU SEE THIS HAPPENING ANYTIME IN THE NEXT CENTURY, FOR INSTANCE?

A:* It will have to happen in this century, because already we have got so much nuclear weapons that we can destroy humanity seven hundred times. It is already gone beyond imagination and beyond all stupidity. Just destroying one time is enough, what is the point of preparing so much? Seven hundred times!

And still they go on pouring all their energy in making nuclear weapons.

Q:* I KNOW YOU SAID YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN PARTICULAR RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS, BUT WHAT ABOUT CAUSE AND EFFECT, KARMA?

A:* Every action has its effect immediately. It does not wait for another life. The Hindu idea is just cunning, and it is an effort to console the poor.

Q:* TO KEEP THEM ENSLAVED IN THEIR CONDITION?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WELL, HOW DOES THAT CARRY OVER, THEN, TO WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT THE NEED FOR WORLD GOVERNMENT, ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT? SINCE... YOU KNOW, I MEAN IT'S GREAT TO SAY THAT THAT'S WHAT WE NEED, BUT CONSIDERING THE WAY NATIONS ARE AND THE WAY -- FRANCE, FOR INSTANCE, BLOWS UP SOME GREEN PEACE* SHIP TO KEEP... WANTS TO KEEP THEM FROM DOING JUST A TEST -- THAT THERE'S THAT LEVEL OF AGGRESSION IN THE WORLD. DO YOU THINK IT'S FEASIBLE TO SAY THAT WE REALLY WILL...?

A:* It is feasible. Just few days before, twenty topmost scientists of America who had founded the whole nuclear plants, those twenty founders had signed a petition that now it is time that nuclear weapons should be stopped.

If these scientists -- just twenty scientists who are the foundation of American nuclear weapons -- can be convinced and they can see it, it is clear that they are creating death. If they can be convinced and they can simply refuse, that, "It is enough and we are not going to do anything any more," the same can happen in Soviet Union.

Man has some conscience too. We have never appealed to it. Just the scientists in Soviet Union can be appealed, approached, that, "You stop completely. At the most it may mean your death, but you will save the whole humanity from dying.

And you can force the government to come to a certain conclusion. This cannot go on any more."

So it is not such a big problem One need not be too optimistic about it. It is a very realistic thing. Twenty scientists here and twenty scientists in Soviet Union -- just forty people have to be convinced.

Q:* BUT WHAT ABOUT THE POLITICIANS?

A:* Politicians cannot do anything. If they don't have nuclear weapons, if they don't know how to use nuclear weapons, what the politicians can do? Ronald Reagan can go back to Hollywood.

What the politicians can do? What do they know? Politics is only... the only profession where no qualifications are needed. The most unqualified, unskilled work is of the politician.

They are exploiting our geniuses -- and they are not many. Just one Albert Einstein wrote a letter to President Roosevelt that, "I can make the atom bomb," and he repented his whole life. Just that one man -- if he had not done, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki has not happened, there would have been no question of any nuclear energy.

Before dying he said that, "If I am born again I would like to be a plumber. I don't want to be a physicist again."

These people can be approached. They are human beings.

And a world academy of scientists can be made by UNO, so all the scientists from all the world can work and function together. There is no need for them to function separately in different countries.

And only if scientists -- which is not a very big group.... Around the world there cannot be more than hundred scientists who are nuclear experts. These hundred people can be easily convinced. It is not difficult. Just it is a question of approaching these people.

And UNO has to understand that the days of just discussing continuously the whole year round and doing nothing are gone. Now something has to be DONE -- and done quickly before any mad politician starts something, and then it will be too late.

Q:* SO WHAT WOULD YOU SUGGEST THAT WE DO ABOUT ALL THIS?

A:* The modern media can do immense job. It is one of the most powerful thing today. The whole modern media should insist on UNO, that, "You should take the responsibility of creating a world academy of scientists, and invite all the scientists from all over the world. And you make an effort to create a world government."

National governments can remain but they will not have any power -- military power. They will be functional governments. They can manage everything else but not war. They can send their representatives, they can bring their problems to the world government and the world government will be decisive where things have to be moved, where food has to go, where labor has to go, where population has to move, where population has to be completely controlled.

It is simple in a way. Just the whole media should become almost insistent continuously. From all over the world bombard on the UNO that, "You are being simply impotent and it is time to act, not just to go on discussing unnecessary things."

And the most basic thing is a world academy of sciences so all the scientists are under the world government, not under national governments.

Just we have to try. There is nothing to lose. If we cannot succeed, then the world goes. So what? But at least we will be dying with the satisfaction that whatever we could do as powerless individuals, we did it. At least that contentment will be there. We were not politicians. We had no power. But whatever we could do, we did it.

If two journalists can manage and force the president, Nixon, to resign from his presidency, can not the whole world of media -- television, radio, newspapers, magazines -- if they all insist, they certainly can create an atmosphere in which change is possible.

And there is nothing to lose. Either we save the world or we die with the contentment that we did whatever we could.

Q:* SO YOU DON'T SEE... WELL, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD THINK THAT A COMMUNE SUCH AS RAJNEESHPURAM, WHICH IS SOMEWHAT REMOVED FROM THE REST OF THE WORLD, IS RECLUSIVE OR SO FORTH, BUT YOU DON'T PROMOTE THAT TYPE OF A LIFESTYLE?

A:* We are promoting.

Q:* I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT TELLING YOUR DISCIPLES TO NOT GET INVOLVED IN THE WORLD.

A:* Yes, certainly. If the whole world listens to me and stops getting involved with the politics and politicians and just starts forgetting about them....

It is time. They should not be given so much importance. Why they should be always on the first pages of newspapers, magazines, television? They should be put on the last page. First page should be devoted to musicians, artists, painters, poets -- creative people. Politicians should be on the fourth page. First page is not for them. What they have done to be on the first pages except killing and murder and burning people, creating Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

A single man, Adolf Hitler, killed ten million people. And these people are still on the first pages. And nobody feels even ashamed.

Journalists have some duty to do.

Q:* UNFORTUNATELY, IT'S THE EDITORS WHO MAKE THOSE DECISIONS.

A:* Just drop the politicians, the importance that you have been giving to them.

That importance should go to creative people, people who enhance life, who make life more beautiful.

These are the ugly people. They should be with the criminals, not anywhere else.

It is in our hands, and that's what I am saying to my people, that we are no more interested in politics, no more interested in their stupid games that they have been playing the whole history.

We are living silently, peacefully, happily, and we are creating such small oases around the world just as models so other people can also see that these models can work and can work far better than the old type of family, old type of city.

Here five thousand sannyasins are here. If it was a city, then there will be at least five hundred or one thousand kitchens. Just one kitchen is serving five thousand people so perfectly that it is sheer stupidity to have one thousand women unnecessary wasting their whole life in kitchens. Few people can manage it. Few people can manage the whole cleaning of the commune. Few people can manage the whole laundry of the commune. Just go and have a look, and you will not find a more clean place anywhere. More hygienic in every way.

Q:* SO DO YOU SEE THE COMMUNE AS SOME KIND OF MODEL FOR GREATER SOCIETY?

A:* Hmm?

Q:* DO YOU SEE THE COMMUNE AS A MODEL FOR...?

A:* Yes, it is a model for society.

Q:* IS THAT PART OF THE REASON WHY YOU WERE SO OUTSP -- WELL, SO....

A:* Yes, use any word that you....

Q:* I TRIED TO FIND THE RIGHT WORD, I MEAN IN TERMS OF THIS INCIDENT WITH SHEELA AND THE OTHER PEOPLE. IT SEEMED LIKE YOU INVITED EVERYBODY TO TAKE PART IN IT, ALMOST. LIKE THE WHOLE....

A:* Yes.

Q:* I MEAN, YOU INVITED THE WHOLE WORLD PRESS OUT HERE TO....

A:* Um hmm.

Q:* AND YOU INVITED THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS AND SO FORTH.

A:* Yes.

Q:* YOU ASKED EVERYONE TO....

A:* Yes, I want everybody to see rather than just live on gossip. Just see with your own eyes, and anybody who has seen has gone immensely satisfied, feeling that something unique is happening -- and very economical.

People don't have personal cars but they have pools of cars, so everybody can use from the pool. So everybody has a car available anytime. Still there is no need for him to bother about the car. That is taken care by the commune garage.

They will keep the car in right order, everything ready, and you can use it anytime. And you can return the car to the garage.

There are one hundred buses. Every ten minute you can get the bus from anyplace to any other place.

The commune has five airplanes you can use anytime for any work. And it is easy, because five thousand people are putting their whole energy. It is so economical. It saves so much unnecessary wastage.

Q:* BUT... OKAY, LIKE... I GUESS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IS, YOU SOMEHOW MADE A PUBLIC PROCLAMATION OVER WHAT HAS GONE ON HERE WITH THOSE PEOPLE, AND... BUT THAT ALSO AT THE SAME TIME HAS OPENED THE DOOR TO PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOU OUT OF HERE, SUCH AS THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, TO EXPLOIT THE SITUATION.

A:* That makes no problem. He can try, but he cannot prostitute the American constitution. We are going to fight for the values the constitution has.

Q:* I GUESS WHAT I WAS TRYING TO ASK IS, DO YOU FEEL THAT THERE'S A DANGER IN WHAT YOU'RE DOING BEING MISUNDERSTOOD BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC?

A:* It is always dangerous, because any new thing people misunderstand. It takes a little time for them to understand. And that's why I am giving interviews to all media, so people can understand and can feel that they are welcome to come here, be a guest and see with their own eyes, and perhaps they may think that this is far better arrangement than old type of family and old type of city.

For example, in the whole world no city has been able yet to find out how many AIDS patients they have, how many homosexuals they have. But my commune has no problem. All five thousand people have gone through the tests and only two persons were found to have AIDS.

And those two persons were not rejected, were not condemned, because they were simply victims. They have not committed any crime. And they are on a dying point: between six months to two years they will die.

So we have given them the best place in the commune, isolated, away, but in the most scenic spot. We have given them literature, music, films. They can do gardening and they can meditate. They can come to the commune. They come every day to the discourse.

Just they have to be aware that the people who are taking care about them -- and with all respect. There is no condemnation at all. They should be also careful not to touch physically anybody. And they have been careful. And they have been grateful.

Now this is the only place in the whole world where we have taken all precautions about AIDS. It cannot spread.

But in every other place the situation is just the opposite. No state government wants to release the information how many AIDS patients are in the state.

Neither they go for a general test for every citizen of the state. No hospital is ready to accept an AIDS patient because he is dangerous -- to the nurses, to the doctors, to other patients. So they simply try to avoid.

In fact, it has been known that they simply say that, "You don't have AIDS."

Now, they are leaving that person into the society to spread AIDS, which is nothing but death because there is no cure.

Every day in L.A. one person is dying of AIDS. But nobody knows how many people are suffering. If one person every day is dying of AIDS, then there must be thousands of people who are suffering. And there will be thousands more who are homosexuals. But nobody knows exact number.

In Texas they made a law -- a very stupid law -- that homosexuality is declared criminal. One million homosexuals protested. This way we came to know that Texas has one million homosexuals. Otherwise nobody ever would have thought that Texas has one million homosexuals. Then what about California? How many times we have to multiply?

And driving these homosexuals underground -- because making them criminals simply means now they will be underground, they will not say they are homosexuals.

But you cannot change just by making a law. You are making things difficult. Up to now they were aboveground. They could have been treated. They could have been checked. They could have been prevented, isolated. Now you have made everything a mess. Now you cannot find them. Nobody is going to declare himself a homosexual.

And how many out of one million homosexuals are suffering from AIDS? Now there is no way to know.

And AIDS spreads not only through sexual contact: by kissing -- saliva is a carrier. Even by tears -- tears are a carrier. Any liquid coming out of the body is a carrier of AIDS virus.

People should look at it rather than coming to a decision without understanding.

And whatever we are doing they will have to do sooner or later, but they will find it difficult because they will have to change all their values.

Okay?

Come again.

Q:* PARDON?

A:* Come again.