Chapter 15

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

BHAGWAN:* Hello, John.

QUESTION:* HELLO. BHAGWAN, WHAT DO YOUR PEOPLE TELL YOU ABOUT SIDDHA AND PRABODHI? ARE THEY ALIVE AND WHERE ARE THEY?

ANSWER:* My people here are almost reborn. They suffered for three and a half years under a fascist type of regime.

The criminals have escaped on their own. This is a victory without fight, without a struggle. We have not said a single word to them, but they could feel the change in the atmosphere.

The moment I started speaking again, the sannyasins felt a tremendous relief that now I am available, now nobody can enforce any kind of slavery on them. And the criminals understood it clearly, that while I am available to the sannyasins they cannot manage to go on committing the same type of things that they have been doing for three and a half years.

They have committed all major crimes.

I have not said them to resign or to leave the commune. I have not said a single word, but just my presence made my people feel a strength, a courage, a freedom that made them....

Q:* THE TWO PEOPLE I ASKED ABOUT, SIDDHA AND PRABODHI.... ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT THEY WERE PART OF THESE CRIMINALS?

A:* No. They were victims of the criminals.

Many people had left, particularly those who were more intelligent than Sheela and her group.

Sheela was afraid of more intelligent people. She herself was uneducated, not very intelligent. What you have seen on the television screen, each and single word I had to teach her.

She was just a hotel waitress when she had come to me. She was neither interested in spirituality nor in meditation. But she was certainly deep down had a lust for power.

So when I was in silence, she removed all those people, harassed them, humiliated them so they had to leave. It is not only Siddha and Prabodhi.

Hundreds of other sannyasins have left. And now they are all calling back that, "We want to come back because we had never left Bhagwan, we have never left the commune. We had left only this gang. Now the gang is gone, we can come back."

Q:* SIDDHA IS NOT ON THE RANCH?

A:* Siddha is not here, but I think soon he will be here. KD had gone but he is back.

Q:* HAVE YOU HAD CONTACT WITH KD?

A:* Not yet. Just I have heard that he has come back. He is a little afraid to face me because he has shown a little cowardliness. So it will take few days for him to gather courage to face me.

Q:* YOU SAID THAT KD HAS SOUGHT IMMUNITY. DO YOU KNOW WHO ELSE? WHO HAVE YOU BEEN TOLD HAS SOUGHT IMMUNITY IN ORDER TO TESTIFY AGAINST YOU AND THE COMMUNE?

A:* I don't know. And anybody who testifies against me, no immunity can save him, because I have not committed any crime. To be silent is not a crime, to be in isolation is not a crime. So I don't think anybody can testify against me. He will have to face in the court. If he cannot face here, how he will be able to face me in the court?

Sheela did not see me before she escaped from here.

Criminals are always cowards, bound to be.

Their own crime destroys their strength. They don't have the strength of truth.

Lies are impotent.

But many people who had gone are coming back. Sheela's old secretary has come back two days before. Now, because of her I have been informed that she is telling things that we were not even aware of, that Sheela was dealing in heroin.

Q:* WHEN AND WHERE?

A:* In '82, here in America. And not only a small quantity. A full load of an airplane.

Q:* WHERE WAS IT GOING?

A:* South America.

Full details will be available soon, as she goes on telling all the stories that she remembers.

She is the one who has told that Sheela stole forty-three million dollars from European communes. The money that was donated for Rajneeshpuram was prevented in Switzerland.

She feels that she will be able to remember the bank account, the bank's name and everything under hypnosis, because some government agency got hold of her, threatened her, hypnotized her and made her forget everything that she has told them. So now our hypnotists are hypnotizing him... her, and she is coming back.

It is a simple process, there is no problem in it. To remove any hypnotic barrier is very simple. She can be dehypnotized. Then she will be able to remember everything correctly, exactly.

Q:* WHO ELSE DO YOU BELIEVE WAS INVOLVED IN THE HEROIN SCHEME BESIDES SHEELA?

A:* We have to see what comes out. There must have been few more people, because Sheela alone cannot do that. If an airplane goes, then there must be a pilot involved in it -- perhaps innocently, not knowing what he is carrying. It is possible.

There may be other people involved who were purchasing the heroin for him, who were selling the heroin for him, the people who were taking heroin there in Latin America. Things will come out. They are coming out. Solid proofs soon will be out.

The only problem is the attorney general of Oregon. His effort is somehow to protect the criminals and destroy the commune. This is a great opportunity for him for which he has been looking for four years and could not find any excuse.

Now this is a good excuse. He can give immunity to the criminals and they can point out to innocent people for all the crimes. And his desire is at least one thousand sannyasins should be imprisoned.

The second possibility is, if he cannot manage to give immunity to Sheela, which is not easy because the federal agencies are working in a very cooperative way and sannyasins are revealing everything to them, and they are now in... every solid proof in their hands to catch hold of the criminals.

The other thing is the attorney general can do: Sheela can be killed. Either she will be given immunity so that the crime can be thrown over innocent people; if that is not possible, then the easier way will be to kill her.

Q:* SHEELA HAS SUGGESTED THAT IF SHE IS KILLED, SHE WILL BE KILLED BY SOMEONE FROM THE COMMUNE.

A:* Nobody from the commune will even kill an ant. Sheela is welcome home, there is no need. She can come back and she will have the same respect and same love. Of course, she will not have the same power. And she will have to face the law.

But as far as her individuality is concerned, she has done much for the commune and the commune is grateful for it. And commune does not believe in violence.

We are ready to take all those people who have gone, but they will have to face the law.

We can do one thing: we can give them our love, our respect. But we cannot support their crimes. We will rather suggest them to go to the court and confess their crimes.

It is better to confess the crimes and ask for punishment. It is far more spiritual, because if you get two years jail or three years jail nothing is lost. After three years you will come clean, unburdened.

Otherwise your whole life you will remain a criminal, guilty, that you deceived those people who loved you, you tried to kill those people who trusted you.

Your whole life will become a nightmare.

Q:* I THINK YOU SAID SHEELA WAS NOT A SPIRITUAL PERSON. THIS IS NOT A LIKELY EVENTUALITY, IS IT?

A:* That does not matter. Even if you are not a spiritual person....

If she was a spiritual person, she would not have committed these crimes. But once you have committed these crimes, you cannot avoid the prick in your conscience. You are human being after all.

Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU SAID YOU HAD TO TEACH SHEELA THE WORDS...

WHEN WE SAW HER ON TELEVISION. IN STERN SHE SAID THAT YOU CRITICIZED HER AND YOU SAID THAT SHE HAD TO BE MORE VOCAL, TO BE OBSCENE TO APPEAR ON TELEVISION, TO GET THE MESSAGE ACROSS.

A:* Obscene? That I have never said.

Q:* HAVE YOU SEEN THE STERN ARTICLES?

A:* No. I have said she has to be more assertive. And to be assertive does not mean obscene. She has to learn a little bit of language too.

Q:* DID SHE DO WELL WHEN SHE APPEARED ON TELEVISION? WERE YOU PLEASED WITH HER PERFORMANCES?

A:* No, never.

Q:* WHY NOT?

A:* She was never assertive the way I wanted her to be. To be assertive does not mean to be hostile. There is a very fine demarcation line between the two.

To be hostile is not the right thing. The person who is hostile simply shows that he is trying to cover up something through hostility.

Q:* SHOULD OREGONIANS HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT IN SHEELA?

A:* That I don't know. That you have to ask the Oregonians. You are an Oregonian; you can answer.

Q:* AS AN OREGONIAN I THOUGHT SHEELA SPOKE FOR YOU, AND I THOUGHT THAT SHE SHOWED YOUR TEMPERAMENT AS YOU WANTED IT PORTRAYED....

A:* No. Oregonians have no idea of my temperament.

You should be assertive in the service of truth. But your assertiveness has to be very loving and very compassionate. It has not to be ugly and obscene.

And I have never said to her to be obscene or to be hostile. I have certainly said to her again and again that, "Be assertive. But remain nice, cultured, humane.

Your assertiveness is for the truth. If you are lying, then your assertiveness turns into hostility."

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT HASYA IS ASSERTIVE ENOUGH TO RUN THIS COMMUNE?

A:* Perfectly.

Q:* IS ANY THOUGHT BEEN GIVEN ON YOUR PART, NOW THAT PUJA IS GONE, TO PERHAPS ABANDONING THE EXTRAORDINARY AIDS PRECAUTIONS THAT ARE USED ON THIS RANCH?

A:* No.

Q:* YOU'RE CONFIDENT THEY'RE A GOOD DECISION?

A:* It is perfectly right and they should be continued.

Q:* HOW ACTIVE A ROLE ARE YOU TAKING NOW IN THE OPERATION OF THE RANCH ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS?

A:* No, I never take any active part in anything. There are corporations who function. My purpose is simply to give guidelines. To follow them or not to follow them is their business.

Q:* YOU LAID DOWN A PRETTY HARD GUIDELINE THIS MORNING AT DISCOURSE, TELLING PEOPLE ESSENTIALLY THEY HAVE A SEVEN-DAY DEADLINE TO SHAPE UP, START COMING TO WORK, DOING THEIR WORK.

A:* Certainly, because even seven days are too much. If seven days the people who run the cafeteria just start enjoying, going into the mountains, swimming in the lake, then even seven days will be too long. The whole commune will start dying.

Q:* WE TALK TO PEOPLE HERE AT THE COMMUNE, AND WHEN WE TURN THE CAMERAS OFF AND THEY CAN TALK TO US KNOWING THEIR PICTURES ARE NOT GOING TO BE TAKEN, THEIR VOICES ARE NOT GOING TO BE RECORDED, NOT A FEW OF THEM TELL US THEY HAVE ENORMOUS DOUBTS NOW, THERE ARE BIG QUESTIONS IN THEIR MINDS.

THEY... THESE ARE PROBABLY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO ARE SHOWING UP LATE FOR WORK, AND THEY'RE ASKING THEMSELVES, "SHOULD I STAY? WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT? REALLY, IS IT FOR ME ANY MORE?"

AS OUTSIDERS, I THINK WE HEAR OR WE SEE THE SIGNS OF CRACKS IN THE COMMUNE FOR THE FIRST TIME. WE HEAR THINGS THAT MAKE US THINK THE COMMUNE COULD DISSOLVE FROM WITHINSIDE.

A:* No. These are signs of freedom. You have not seen them before because you can never see them in a fascist structure. But in a freedom....

Q:* I'VE HEARD YOU MAKE THE POINT BEFORE AT DISCOURSE, THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF FREEDOM AND THEY WANT A HELL OF A LOT MORE. THEY WANT MORE FREE TIME, THEY WANT TO PLAY THEIR GUITARS, THEY WANT TO SING AND DANCE....

A:* Then they will have less food. They can play. Nobody is preventing. It is their responsibility. Then they will have less food, then they won't have the same facilities that they are having now because others who provide those facilities will also want to work less.

Q:* THESE PEOPLE, SOME OF THEM, I'M TOLD THEY'RE WORKING AS MUCH AS TWELVE HOURS A DAY SEVEN DAYS A WEEK. YOU WOULDN'T THINK ABOUT INITIATING, SAY, AN EIGHT-HOUR WORK WEEK...

A:* No, I have been....

Q:*... WEEKDAY.

A:* We will reduce their work to six hours a day but only when whatever Sheela has left incomplete has to be completed before the winter sets in. Otherwise all that work that they have done will be spoiled.

For example, they are making a road. If they don't put tar on it before winter, all the work that they have done for eight miles will be spoiled. In the rain, in the snow, all their work will be gone. They will have to do it again. So it is better to finish it and then there is possibility to have six hours a day.

Q:* I THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE MAY FEEL -- AS MUCH AS THEY LOVE YOU -- THAT THERE'S ALWAYS ANOTHER ROAD THAT HAS TO BE FINISHED, THAT THERE'S NO POINT AT WHICH THEY CAN SAY WE CAN STOP NOW AND WE CAN ENJOY WHAT WE'VE BUILT.

A:* There is no other road to be finished.

Only things that are unfinished have to be finished, and then we will take work only which can be finished within six hours time. And we will calculate how many people we have and how much work we have.

Sheela was never thinking of that, never thought about people, how many work hours they can provide and how much work you are thinking to do. She never thought about the relationship of the both.

That's what I am telling President Hasya, that, "You have to remember before you plan for any work, the first thing to be considered is whether your people have time to do it. If they don't have time to do it, then that work cannot be done.

Then don't start it."

(Tape side B) Q:* TALK ABOUT FREEDOM IN THE COMMUNE. HOW MUCH FREEDOM CAN THEY HAVE? SHEELA REALLY SERVED A PURPOSE HERE. SHEELA WAS GREAT FOR THIS COMMUNE BECAUSE SHE KEPT PEOPLE WORKING.

A:* Slaves can always be kept working. That's how pyramids were made. No society which has freedom can make pyramids. But that does not mean that people should live in slavery and make pyramids.

Those pyramids are ugly symbols of slavery. I don't want any pyramids here.

Just necessary human facilities are enough. We don't want any miracles to happen. There is no need for people to work twelve hours. But because they have already done three-fourth of the work, if they don't do the remaining work then the winter will spoil their three-fourth work, and again they will have to start from the scratch. That is stupid.

And when they were working twelve hours without any complaint, just because there was a fascist regime, why they cannot work on their own responsibility?

Why they cannot see the simple point that the work has to be finished? It is the commune's work.

And now onwards this will be our effort, to take as much work in hand as people can do within six hours per day, not more than that.

Q:* WHAT HAPPENS IF SEVEN DAYS PASS AND PEOPLE DON'T SHOW UP AT THAT CAFETERIA BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT WORKING THAT HARD?

HOW DO YOU CRACK THE WHIP?

A:* I have told them, if they don't take the responsibility then I can tell Hasya to be strict.

Q:* AND BEING STRICT WOULD MEAN KICKING PEOPLE OUT OF HERE IF THEY DON'T WORK?

A:* Yes. Get them out.

Q:* YOU HAVE PEOPLE WHO WOULD COME IN TO REPLACE THEM.

A:* Yes, there are thousands of people who want to come and we don't have space, so it will be perfectly good that lazybones go on down the county road which goes directly to hell. We can get better people, there is no question about it.

But they will have to work responsibly. And our effort will be that... it will take a little time to reduce their work hours, to give them more and more time for their own creativity or just for rest or just to sit in the sun, meditate. That's what they have come here for.

Q:* WOULD IT HAVE BEEN BETTER OR WOULD IT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE TO BUILD THIS COMMUNE WITH SIX-HOUR DAYS?

A:* It was difficult. What Sheela did was not all wrong. We tend to divide things into black and white. What Sheela did was mostly right.

Most of the people who had come were hippies. They did not want to work at all. They did not want to take baths. They did not want to be clean. They did not want to have clean clothes. So what you do with these people? You explain to them -- they don't listen. They think they are very progressive. You are talking primitive ideas: cleanliness.

So what Sheela did was absolutely necessary. She made it clear: either you do it or get out.

And they did it.

And she changed those hippies. They are no more hippies here.

But if you leave them without any responsibility, they may fall back to their old habits.

They were a... They were all addicted to drugs. And I am absolutely against drugs, that in the commune no drug can enter. And if you cannot live without drugs, then live somewhere else. This is not the place for you.

Because drugs are the most hindering influences for growth of meditativeness.

Drugs gives you a sense of meditation which is only an illusion. But once you become addicted with the illusion, so when just injecting yourself with a drug you can have beautiful experiences which are hallucinatory, who bothers to sit for meditation and work for years to get to those spaces which are not hallucinatory but a reality?

So I cannot allow any drugs in the commune. And no freedom about drugs can be allowed here.

So it is open for them. If they want drugs they can move out. If they want meditation they can remain here.

It will take a little time for the change. Now they have become addicted with a fascist structure. Somebody has to goad them, continuously be on their neck, nag them and then they will do. Now suddenly they are free; nobody is forcing them to do it....

Q:*...(INAUDIBLE, SOUNDS LIKE "I HAVE A SIGN SHEET?") A:* Um hmm. You just tell me whenever you feel.

Q:* DOES IT CONCERN YOU THAT YOU ARE THE PERSON WHO IS NOW DOING THE NAGGING AND THE GOADING?

A:* No. Neither I will do it nor I will have a second person to do it. I hate the very idea of nagging anybody. Either he understands or -- the whole world is free -- he can move and live with his misunderstanding, non-understanding, wherever he wants. But here we will not allow nagging, goading. No.

And if you think that you can create a commune then try. And you will be surprised that except failure you will not get anything out of it.

Q:* SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE COME TO THE UNITED STATES AND TRIED TO BUILD SOCIETIES. AND THERE'S A HISTORY OF FAILURES.

A:* The reason is that all those societies that have come here had an average life of three years at the most. None of them succeeded for the simple reason, first, they were all fanatics of some kind or other.

Secondly, they were all dreamers, not realistic.

Thirdly, they all worshiped poverty and thought that poverty has something spiritual in it.

These three things were the causes of all those communes' disappearance.

I know the history of all those communes.

I hate poverty. I don't think it has anything to do with spirituality. In fact, poverty is the source of all crime and everything disgusting that has happened to humanity. I want my people to be comfortable, to be luxurious -- not poor.

Secondly, I am not a dreamer and I am not thinking of an Utopia. All those societies were Utopians. They were thinking of creating some Utopia. I am not interested in any Utopia.

I am thinking only of a very human, real, society.

Thirdly, we are not fanatics about anything. We don't have any religious fanaticism, we don't have any political fanaticism. We don't have, in fact, any ideology to be fanatic about.

So all the three ingredients which have been the cause of disappearance of all the societies are absent in this commune. So I don't see there is any possibility of this commune disappearing.

The only possibility is if the Oregonian government wants to make another Hiroshima, then it can disappear. But it will be a good, beautiful place. You miss a Hiroshima in America: a memorial for tourists, and good income.

Q:* HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF THERE WAS A MINOR REBELLION HERE?

FOR EXAMPLE, YOU'VE ASKED THE CITIZENS OF RAJNEESH TO CHANGE THE NAME OF THE CITY BACK. WHAT IF THEY DON'T DO IT?

A:* They understand me. If they have any doubt they can ask, if they have any argument against me they can place their argument. I am ready for an open encounter with all the sannyasins who live there.

In fact, because no sannyasin wants to live there, they want to live here, so I don't see that they will disagree what I have said. If they want to live here, they can't have the government of City of Rajneesh, then why not gracefully give it back to the people the city belonged? Why create unnecessary hostility?

Q:* WHY NOT HAVE THOSE SANNYASINS WHO DON'T LIKE LIVING DOWN IN RAJNEESH RIGHT NOW PACK TONIGHT, COME DOWN HERE AND LIVE WHERE THEY WANT TO LIVE?

A:* Mm, then what about the properties that the Foundation has purchased from the Antelopians? Give them in donation?

Q:* IT WAS THE CORPORATION'S FAULT FOR BUYING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. WHAT DO THEY WANT WITH ANTELOPE? YOU'VE ASKED THE QUESTION YOURSELF?

A:* No, this is sannyasins' corporation. This is their property.

Q:* THE SAME PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT THAT I BELIEVE BOUGHT THAT ENORMOUS MAN-CAMP THAT'S DOWN THERE, THAT'S HOUSING FOR ANOTHER SIX HUNDRED PEOPLE? ANOTHER....

A:* No. The question is, the people who are living there, the property is theirs too. Right now it is theirs. And we have offered that, "You can purchase your property and we will take our sannyasins back."

Now, this seems to be very illogical of you to ask me to tell people that, "Just vacate." Why don't you go and tell the Antelopians, who are only twelve? And there are one hundred sannyasins. This will be more rational, that those twelve pack away. And we are ready to purchase their properties, so they will not be losing anything.

Q:* PEOPLE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN PROPERTY, AND THOSE PEOPLE WOULD BE A LOT HAPPIER IN THIS COMMUNITY. AND THE AMOUNT OF MONEY INVOLVED IS NOT THAT GREAT.

A:* The property is also important, because the people cannot exist without the property. People ARE important, and it happens almost in this way.

For example, Jesus says man cannot live by bread alone. It looks certainly right:

man needs some higher values to live. He cannot live by bread alone. But this sentence is not complete. Can man live without bread? Somebody should ask Jesus? I say man may live with bread alone, but man cannot live at all without bread.

So the prop.... Man is important and the property is for man, but without property the man cannot live.

Q:* THERE'S PROBABLY NOBODY IN OREGON WHO WANTS THAT LAND RIGHT NOW, AND THAT MEANS THOSE SANNYASINS....

A:* If they don't want, then we are going to remain there. Then all those idiots were supporting Antelope people, where all their sympathy has gone now?

Q:* YOU'RE SUGGESTING THAT OREGONIANS SHOULD PUT TOGETHER THE MONEY TO BUY THAT PROPERTY...?

A:* Certainly, because if they supporting Antelope people all along their fight, and they were in their favor, this is a chance to show whether their sympathy is verbal or they mean it. If they mean it, then what is the problem? Oregon is such a big state. There are so many people with millions of dollars. They can purchase... just a single person can purchase the whole property.

Q:* THIS IS A VERY RICH COMMUNE. THIS COMMUNE COULD FORGET THAT PROPERTY AND JUST BRING THE PEOPLE BACK.

A:* I cannot forget anything. This way or that, either we will have Antelope or they will have Antelope. It is now for them to decide. We are ready to vacate if they purchase the properties. Otherwise they should sell their properties and get lost.

Q:* ARE YOU PREPARED TO MAKE OFFERS FOR THE REMAINING PROPERTY IN ANTELOPE?

A:* We are ready to purchase their properties. At the market price we are ready to purchase.

Q:* YOU CONFIDENT THAT THE BOOKS BALANCE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, THAT THAT MONEY THAT IS MISSING WAS PERHAPS TAKEN OUT OF DONATIONS?

A:* No money is missing from here.

Q:* I HEARD YOU AT THE NEWS CONFERENCE LAST MONDAY, I WOULD LIKE YOU IF YOU COULD GIVE ME A YES OR NO ANSWER.

YOU ARE NO LONGER A RELIGION. DO YOU EXPECT TO KEEP A TAX EXEMPTION?

A:* Certainly. Because we are a way of religiousness. We are not a religion, not an organized religion but a way of religiousness, a way of life, a way of spirituality.

Our whole effort here is to create a school of mystics.

This is higher than religion. If religion can have tax-exempt status, we are doubly qualified to have it.

Q:* HAVE YOU TALKED TO A LAWYER ABOUT THIS?

A:* Yes. I know I don't need to talk to any lawyer. I will talk to the income tax people. I don't need to talk with lawyers, there is no need. I am enough intelligent to prove that the way of spirituality is far higher than an organized religion.

In fact, all organized religions should be taken away their tax-exempt status, because whatever they have done to the world is simply ugly. They have created wars, crusades, murders, burnt living people. They have done all the crimes, and still they need tax-exempt status.

And we are a commune of meditators, and meditation is simply a way of religiousness.

This religiousness is just like....

An organized religion is a dead corpse. Once perhaps there was a living school of meditation, of the science of going inwards, but that has disappeared long. Now only popes, Ayatollah Khomeini, Hindu shankaracharya, Tibetan Dalai Lama -- these people who don't know even ABC of meditation. And I give them open challenge. They can come here for an open discussion. All that they know is a parrotlike repetition of scriptures.

This is not a religion, but this is far more. It is exactly what religion should have been.

The word religion comes from a root: RELIGIO. It is a religio. And religio simply means a way of crystallizing your being, making you centered, alert, aware, conscious, so that you can feel on your own accord the beauty, the benediction and the blessing of existence.

So who can say that our tax-exempt status can be taken away? If it is taken away, I am going to fight up to the Supreme Court.

(Tape side C) Q:* THERE'S A LOT OF NICE GIRLS ON THIS RANCH. WHY HAVEN'T YOU GOTTEN MARRIED, GOTTEN THE GREEN CARD AND GOTTEN IT OVER WITH?

A:* I can get married to as many women....

Q:* I'M ONLY SUGGESTING ONE.

A:* No. In one I don't believe. You know my ninety cars. I am going to have three hundred sixty-five. In one woman I don't believe.

Q:* IT COULD SAVE YOU A LOT OF PROBLEMS.

A:* No, I don't want to solve in so easy way. I love the hard ways. I want to fight tooth and nail and show to those people that four years the whole department is working, and they have not been able to come to any conclusion.

I used to think that Americans have some intelligence, but now I cannot say that.

Four years for the whole INS department, and they cannot decide. And I have applied on five grounds. They should deny on any ground and I will fight on that ground up to the Supreme Court. And I know perfectly well that every ground is solid. That's why it is taking them for so long.

Yes they cannot say because of the political pressure. No they cannot say because there is no ground for no. If they say no, I am going to move into the court. And then they will be unable to face me, because, "On what ground you have said no?"

I will fight. It was easy, I know, to get married and get the green card. But who cares about green card? I am going to be here, green card or no green card.

Q:* THE GREEN CARD COULD MEAN YOU COULD TRAVEL, THOUGH.

YOU COULD BE IN GERMANY TO....

A:* No. I would like to be here without green card.

In fact, I want to show to the whole world that these Americans talk about democracy, talk about freedom of the individual, talk about freedom of expression, and actually what they have done: they have invaded somebody else'

land.

They are all foreigners here, and their forefathers had no visa, no green cards.

They all entered country without any legal status. Strange how their sons have become legal. Illegal fathers producing legal sons.

I am going to see if the Supreme Court of America is really for the constitution of America -- which is one of the best in the whole world -- has any respect for it.

Then the first thing should be: "Return the land to the red Indians. It does not belong to you. And ask for green cards from the red Indians."

My green card is not going to be a simple thing, It is going to be complex, and it is going to create a world turmoil around it.

My sannyasins are going to fight it before every American embassy around the world, that, "You are invaders. You have committed a crime against a poor country, poor people. You have exploited them. And suddenly you have become masters.

"Just because you came two hundred years before and I came four years before, what difference does it make? You have been tourists for two hundred years, I have been tourist only for four years. So who is more criminal -- me or you? And who will decide?"

All the green cards of the Americans and their passports are illegal, unconstitutional. They are holding a whole country into slavery and talking about freedom. They don't have even shame.

So I am going to fight it. That's why I am not getting married. That was easy. I know it. But the easiest I have not chosen. I have chosen something which is going to test the intelligence of INS and the fairness of the Supreme Court and to show to the whole world that this is not a democracy, this is a hypocrisy.

So my green card is simply an excuse. I don't care a bit about it.

Q:* DO YOU EXPECT TO BE ARRESTED SOON? HAS THERE BEEN ANYTHING FROM YOUR PEOPLE, YOUR LAWYERS, TO INDICATE THAT YOU ARE IN SOME DANGER OF BEING ARRESTED?

A:* I have been my whole life waiting to be arrested, because that is the only excitement I have been missing. I would love to be arrested and handcuffed so I can show my both handcuffed hands to the whole world, that: This is America.

Bravo America.

And this is the America who is going to save the democracy of other countries.

And this is the America who is fighting against the dictatorial regime of Soviet Union.

There is no difference at all. The only difference is that Soviet Union is straightforward. They declare they are a dictatorship of the proletariat. And America is hypocrite, talking about democracy and behaving in a dictatorial way.

So I would love. Those two hands in handcuffs you have to show on your television screen to the whole world.

Good, John.

INTERVIEW WITH SWAMI VISHRANT FROM AUSTRALIAN CONSOLIDATED NEWS QUESTION:* I'VE GOT TWELVE QUESTIONS TO ASK YOU. THE LAST ONE'S THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE TO ME BECAUSE IT'S A BIT PERSONAL. I'M TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE INTERVIEW. BUT THE FIRST QUESTION:

BHAGWAN, I'VE HEARD YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE AN ORDINARY MAN.

IN AUSTRALIA WE HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD CONSIDER THEMSELVES AS ORDINARY PEOPLE. WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR ORDINARINESS AND THEIR ORDINARINESS?

ANSWER:* There is great difference. The difference is all the ordinary people of the world, without exception, deep down believe they are extraordinary. They are not ordinary.

Q:* THE THING THAT SEEMS TO COME TO MIND TO A LOT OF AUSTRALIANS I'VE SPOKEN TO WHO ARE ANTI-DISCIPLES IS THAT YOU HAVE THE ROLLS ROYCES AND YOU HAVE THE WATCHES WHICH ARE LOVELY, AND YOU STILL CLAIM YOU'RE ORDINARY. AND THEY CAN'T SEEM TO UNDERSTAND AT ALL....

A:* You just wait. You have not listened my answer. I am saying that the ordinary man believes deep down in his heart that he is not ordinary. Just tell to anybody that, "You are ordinary," and see the reaction.

I say I am ordinary, because to be ordinary is the nature of things. And there is no desire to be extraordinary, no ambition to be extraordinary. In fact, because I am an ordinary man, I can enjoy diamond watches, I can enjoy Rolls Royces. No extraordinary man can do that.

For example, Mahatma Gandhi is an extraordinary man. He will move in a third- class compartment in the train because he has renounced all comforts. He cannot move in a first-class compartment, he cannot go into an air-conditioned compartment. He will move in a third-class compartment. And because of that he will be respected as a great saint all over India.

But nobody looks at the reality. The reality is, because Gandhi was moving in a third-class compartment, a compartment that is meant to carry sixty people is carrying one person.

If he was going into an air-conditioned class, in which I have been moving, it is only four times to the third-class fare. Now his fare is sixty times more. My fare is only four times more. But he is a great saint. Nobody can call me a saint. Saints don't go into air-conditioned class. They don't have ninety Rolls Royces, they don't have limousines.

He will not drink even the milk of a cow because it is richer. Buffalos' milk is even more richer in content. He will drink only a goat's milk because that is the poorest milk in content. And he will be worshiped as a great saint.

But his goat in those days used to eat cashew nuts, grapes, oranges, apples -- worth ten rupees. In those days, ten rupee was the salary of a schoolmaster for a whole month. And Gandhi's goat will eat ten rupees worth food in one day.

And this is saintly.

One of Gandhi's most intimate disciples, Surojini Nayadu*, is reported to have said that, "To keep Mahatma Gandhi poor, we have to waste fortunes."

But I am an ordinary man, and I will enjoy everything that ordinary man is supposed to enjoy.

Q:* BHAGWAN, YOU'RE ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL MEN IN THE WORLD. YOU'VE UPSET THE MASSES IN AUSTRALIA. WHAT'S YOUR REASON FOR DOING THIS?

A:* I love it.

Q:* IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU THAT POPULAR, THOUGH. PEOPLE TEND TO RUN RATHER THAN COME.

A:* Nobody is asking them to come. Let them run -- as far as they can go. But once a person starts running away from me, he is in my grip. The earth is round.

Soon from the other side he will be coming to me. Where he will go? How far he can run?

So I have a simple principle. Either a person has to love me or he has to hate me.

I don't allow any other alternative, because love and hate both are deep relationships. Love can change into hate, hate can change into love. It is very simple.

So I create controversies. Those controversies create divisions in people: people who are for me, people who are against me. But they both are unaware of one fact: that I have become the focus of their attention of them both.

Q:* BHAGWAN, THEY'RE NOT UNAWARE OF THAT. AND THEY BELIEVE IT'S A PUBLICITY STUNT FOR YOU TO GET THEM IN.

A:* That's perfectly right. Publicity is perfectly right. The sun rising early in the morning does publicity all over the world. Stars in the night do publicity. Moon and the full moon, they do publicity. Flowers spreading their fragrance into the wind, what they are doing? Publicity! I am also doing publicity.

Q:* YOUR PUBLICITY IS MORE A VERBAL PUBLICITY. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT COMES UP LIKE THE SUN.

A:* It cannot come like the sun -- not because of any incapacity on my side. It is because the sun cannot speak, cannot give an interview to the news media.

Otherwise, the sun will do. He cannot speak; poor fellow is just mute. What can I do about it?

I am not mute. I will speak. Those who can understand my presence, they will understand my presence. Those who can understand my voice will understand my voice. Those who cannot understand anything at least will understand hate, hostility, towards me. But I am not going to leave a single word... around the world a single man who can ignore me.

Q:* NO, IT SEEMS NOT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, I'M HEADING THIS STORY `BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH: MADMAN OR SAVIOR?'

A:* That's good. It is groovy.

Q:* ARE YOU A MADMAN OR A SAVIOR, BHAGWAN?

A:* I am a madman.

Q:* WHEN SHEELA WAS IN AUSTRALIA, SHE SAID MANY RUDE THINGS TO AUSTRALIANS ON AND OFF THE AIR. WAS SHE ACTING FOR YOU OR WAS SHE ACTING FOR HERSELF?

A:* I don't know what she did there. I have no idea. She was continuously using my name in everything, because sannyasins won't listen to her. They are in love with me. So she was exploiting my name in every possible way and telling everybody that this is my message, this is what I have said. And I don't even know what she was doing there, what business was hers there to be.

In fact, since I started speaking, she started finding any excuse to run away from here, for the simple reason because she became more and more afraid that now I am speaking, two things are happening.

One thing, her image from the television disappeared, her voice from the radio disappeared, her pictures and statements in the newspapers disappeared. That was bursting her balloon of the ego. In three and half years she has become a big ego, a celebrity. So this was one of the reasons she was running to Europe, to Australia, to Japan, to Singapore, to India -- because there she had still the same image. I was not there, so she was my representative, my mediator, to the sannyasins.

Secondly, she started feeling that sooner or later her crimes, which were confined only within a group of twenty people.... Naturally, every criminal keeps the group as small as possible, otherwise it is dangerous. More people, more possibility of things getting into public. So only twenty major people in the commune she has placed on top positions knew about her crimes. But she was becoming alert, because the crimes that were committed -- few were such that my physician was thrice poisoned, my caretaker one time poisoned.

(Tape side D) Now, these people started bringing all kinds of news to me, that houses are bugged, that phones are taped. Even my room was bugged. I asked Sheela that, "Is my room bugged?" And she flatly denied, "No. Why we should bug Your room? And if it is bugged, then we should have a checkup."

I said, "If it is not you, then who can bug it? There is no need to check."

Q:* WHY WOULD YOU SUSPECT SHEELA WOULD BUG YOUR ROOM, BHAGWAN?

A:* Just so that whatever anybody tells me she knows. And then I figured it out, that it is bugged, because I talked with Devaraj something and next day she brought the subject. I talked something to Vivek, and exact words next day she brought it up. She will bring it up in such a way that, "Last night I dreamt that You are sitting in the chair and Vivek is sitting in front and Devaraj is sitting in front and something You are talking, and they are talking, and they are talking that somebody is poisoned. I can't exactly remember, but it was something about poisoning people. And," she said, "not only I dreamt it, Savita dreamt it, Vidya dreamt it." Exact same dream!

So that was enough proof that -- I was searching -- that there is bugging or not.

There was bugging, because she was repeating exactly.

She became aware that sooner or later she will be caught.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THIS COULD HAPPEN AGAIN.

A:* There is no possibility.

Q:* WELL, DO YOU THINK THAT HASYA, YOUR NEW SECRETARY, IS CAPABLE OF MISTRUST AS SHEELA WAS?

A:* No.

Q:* IN JULY I HEARD YOU SAY, "TELL THEM TO GET READY. I'M COMING." THAT WAS REFERRING TO COMING TO AUSTRALIA. ARE YOU STILL COMING?

A:* Just I have to see with this green card thing.

Q:* SO IF YOU GET A GREEN CARD, YOU'RE COMING OUT AND SEE US?

A:* Unless green card is in my hand, I cannot move out of America.

Q:* THEY WOULDN'T LET YOU BACK IN?

A:* They will not let me back in.

Q:* WHEN DO YOU THINK THAT YOU'LL PUT THAT PLAN INTO ACTION OF GETTING THE SANNYASINS TO START PICKETING THE AMERICAN CONSULATES WITH REGARD YOUR GREEN CARD?

A:* No, not about my green card. That I am not worried. But if they do any harm to the commune.... They are keeping their army alert, they are keeping their national guard alert to attack Rajneeshpuram. If this happens, then I am going to tell my sannyasins... I am also keeping them alert.

They have already got this message, that they have to be alert. Any moment any nuisance American government does, then you have to demonstrate, meditate, dance, do Dynamic Meditation before every American embassy.

Q:* THAT'D BE SOMETHING TO SEE, BHAGWAN.

A:* It will be worth seeing, because nobody has ever done meditation as a protest.

Q:* IN AUSTRALIA WE HAVE TWO COMMUNES: ONE IN SYDNEY AND ONE IN PERTH, WEST AUSTRALIA. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT NOW THAT SHEELA AND THE GANG HAVE GONE THAT WE COULD HAVE MORE COMMUNES IN MORE OF THE TOWNS?

A:* Yes, certainly you can have. Those people had this idea of keeping as small number of communes as possible. That is stupid. The idea was to control, because when you have many communes control becomes impossible.

I don't want to control. There is no need.

I had given thousands names for centers around the world, and in these three and half year they destroyed those centers, forced the centers to close, told the people to move to one commune. Few moved, few have not moved. And they are not happy, because they were having their own place. Even if there was just twelve people, but they were happy and doing their work. So there is no question.

Now again every center can start working. New communes should start. Every city should have a commune. If commune is too big, you can have a ashram, which will be a smaller place. If ashram is also too big, then you can have just a center where two, three sannyasins will be living. But other sannyasins can come, meet, discuss, dance, sing, meditate.

But spread it wide. I want it to be completely decentralized.

Their effort was centralizing, everything keeping in their hands. That is absolutely fascist idea.

I would like every place to have my commune, my people. And now that I have freed my people from red clothes, mala, you will be able to have many more people available to become sannyasins. Now there is no barrier for them.

These small things were unnecessary barriers. Red clothes, their job becomes difficult, their family creates trouble, their society, their culture, their friends -- they become unnecessarily a problem, everywhere they feel embarrassed. No need any more.

Q:* I HEARD YOU SAY EARLIER THIS EVENING THAT YOU WERE GOING TO PUT A SIX-HOUR-DAY ON FOR SANNYASINS IN THE COMMUNES.

NOW, THERE SEEMS TO BE A SITUATION AT RAJNEESHPURAM HERE IN OREGON WHERE YOU'VE GOT SOME ROADS TO BUILD AND YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO WORK THE TWELVE HOURS A DAY UNTIL THAT GETS DONE.

IN OTHER CENTERS AROUND THE WORLD, WHICH DO FOLLOW EXACTLY WHAT THE RANCH DOES IN THEIR HOURS AND EVERYTHING, THE THING IS A LOT OF THEM WON'T HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM, THEY WON'T HAVE THE ROADS TO BUILD AND THAT. IS IT NECESSARY FOR THEM TO WORK THE TWELVE HOURS A DAY?

A:* No, just whatsoever is necessary. If they can manage six hours and there is no need to work more, that's perfectly good. If they can manage in four hours, that's even better. I am not....

But the question is, they should decide their economy, because they should not become poor. There were few communes which were very poor, eating just bread and soup. If you don't create, then naturally you will become poor. They were not having good clothes. Their houses were dilapidated. Old abandoned places they had taken and were living. This is not good.

So if work is needed to be done, do it, because you are doing for yourself. But if work is not needed and you are perfectly comfortable with six hours, then six hours is perfect. There is no need.

Just tell everybody that, "You have to look to your need. There is no world standard that everybody has to work in this way. But one thing has to be remembered which is a world standard: that our sannyasins should not be poor, that our sannyasins should not look like paupers.

"Our sannyasins should have good clothes, comfortable housing, heated rooms, air conditioning. Whatsoever modern technology makes available, our sannyasins should manage it. And work for it. Then six hours is perfect. The whole remaining time you meditate, you read, you discuss, you dance, you sing.

And there are so many things in life to do, not just work."

But these people in three and half years had created an idea everywhere that work is the only thing. They were not interested in meditation because they never did themselves any meditation. They were not interested in any creativity.

They were not creative people. They were not interested in music because they had never played. They were not interested in anything except work. Their interest was more and more money.

My interest is that you should be comfortable. That much money is enough.

You should not live for money, but you should be alert that enough money is always produced by the commune so you don't become poor.

Q:* ARE THERE ANY ENLIGHTENED AUSTRALIAN SANNYASINS?

A:* There are few.

Q:* COULD YOU NAME THEM FOR US?

A:* No, that....(words drowned out by audience laughter) Q:* ARE THERE ANY ON THE RANCH HERE?

A:* Yes, there are.

Q:* WOULD YOU BE PREPARED TO NAME ANY OF THEM?

A:* They will remain anonymous, because it is dangerous. Others will start feeling jealous. Others will start feeling that, "They are superior and we are inferior." And I don't want to create any classes in sannyasins.

Somebody is enlightened, it is perfectly good. He should help others to be enlightened. But there is no need to declare your enlightenment. Let others feel that you are far advanced, and help them to advance farther and farther towards the goal -- without declaring yourself.

So I declare somebody is enlightened only when he is dead, because with dead people it is good. Nobody feels jealous.

Q:* HAVE YOU GOT ANYTHING TO SAY TO YOUR SANNYASINS THAT LIVE IN AUSTRALIA?

A:* Just tell them that whatsoever Sheela and her company has done there was not my work.

For example, I have heard they have put all their children in one place. Neither the parents are happy nor the children are happy. Remove those children back with their parents.

They have closed many centers. Open them. Open in new cities.

And because now sannyas becomes so simple and so available that you will be getting many more new faces, now we are absolutely in a position to take over the world. There is no problem.

So tell them that all that Sheela and her company has done has nothing to do with me, so any litigation, any unnecessary troubles that they have created, get out of it. It is none of our business.

And you go back the way you were functioning. You were functioning perfectly well. This turmoil was of no use. It simply made sannyasins discriminated from other people, as enemies. It is not right.

So create again bridges rather than walls. Make friendship.

Tell them that we don't have any religion so there is no question of any competition with Christianity or Catholicism or Judaism. We don't have any competition because we are not a religion at all.

We are simply a way of living, a way of attaining consciousness, a way of religiousness, a way of spirituality.

So anybody can join us. And there is no conflict with anybody else.

So make friendship and make it clear that Sheela's group has been thrown out of the commune, and commune is being cleaned of all that they have done which was not right. And the same is being done in Europe, in Switzerland, in England.

In England Sheela did the same thing. She collected all the children of sannyasins from all the communes of Europe in England. So the whole commune became of childrens and the sannyasins -- four hundred sannyasins who were living in the communes -- she forced them to move to European communes.

This is absolutely absurd. Parents are unhappy, children are unhappy. And the woman, Poonam, who has made the whole commune, she got so disgusted with these peoples she left the commune. She went out to live in London, opened her own bodywork shop.

Just last night I have informed her, "You take over the commune, send the children back to their parents, call all the sannyasins to the commune."

She was so immensely happy. She could not believe... she had tears. She started crying, I was informed, on the phone, that, "It was hurting so much, that I put my whole life in making that commune."

And she had made a beautiful commune, and these people simply destroyed everything and took over. And the whole idea was how to get power over their money, over their finances.

This is absolutely ugly. We don't want any commune's finances. If they can manage themselves comfortably, we are absolutely happy.

So just tell that to them.

Q:* THANK YOU VERY MUCH.