Chapter 12

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewers' remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

Q: BHAGWAN, THIS IS JOHN MCCALL FROM THE SEATTLE POST INTELLIGENCE. IN THE NEWS CONFERENCE MONDAY NIGHT YOU SAID YOU ARE NOT A SAVIOR OR A PROPHET OR A LEADER. DO YOU WANT THE SANNYASINS TO STAY WITH YOU HERE AT RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* They want to stay with me.

Q:* SHEELA HAS TOLD US IN THE PAST THAT HER FATHER RAISED YOU FOR A TIME BEFORE SHE WAS BORN. AND THIS MORNING YOU SAID THAT YOU WERE MIFFED THAT SHE HAD NOT EVEN SAID GOOD-BY TO YOU WHEN SHE LEFT. WHAT TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP YOU HAD WITH SHEELA?

A:* Just she was my secretary -- no relationship.

Q:* DID YOU LOVE SHEELA?

A:* No. I did not even like her.

Q:* I WOULD FIND IT IRONIC THAT YOU WOULD APPOINT HER YOUR PERSONAL SECRETARY WHEN YOU KNEW SHE WAS NOT A MEDITATOR, WHEN SHE WAS A HOTEL WAITRESS, AND THAT YOU DIDN'T EVEN LIKE HER -- WHY MAKE HER YOUR STRONGEST AIDE?

A:* Those were her qualifications. To raise a commune, to change this desert into an oasis, a very pragmatic, practical, strong person was needed -- and she was that kind of person. She was not interested in meditation, she was not interested in any kind of spiritual growth. These were his qualifications to be a secretary.

Now the situation is totally different. The commune is established. Now a different setup of people is needed. Each step needs different kind of people.

Now I need meditators, people who are interested in spiritual growth: they should take charge.

But in the beginning they would not have been able to withstand with all kind of hostility that strangers are bound to face.

So there is no contradiction in it. I did it knowingly.

Q:* DID YOU EXPECT WHAT HAPPENED TO HAPPEN?

A:* It was possible.

Q:* YOU SAID ALSO AT THE NEWS CONFERENCE MONDAY NIGHT YOU BLAMED RELIGIOUS REQUIREMENTS OF CELIBACY, FOR INSTANCE IN CHRISTIANITY, FOR CREATING HOMOSEXUALITY WHICH IN TURN LED TO AIDS. YOU HAVE ALSO SAID IN THE PAST THAT YOU HAVE KNOWN MANY WOMEN, YET YOU GIVE US THE IMPRESSION NOW THAT YOU ARE A CELIBATE MAN. ARE YOU?

A:* I am not.

Q:* AT THE PRESENT?

A:* Yes, at the present. Just as you are not eating now but tomorrow morning you will have breakfast, I can have my breakfast any time! Right now, I am celibate, you are celibate, everybody here is celibate....

Q:* IN SEATTLE I HAVE A WIFE. I WONDER IF YOU HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH A WOMAN.

A:* I have relationship with thousands of women. One woman is not enough.

Nobody is satisfied with one woman or with one man, and you should look into yourself Because it is human nature to have change... about everything. Now you are here, you are celibate, but you cannot guarantee that there in Seattle your wife is celibate. She may be celebrating!

Q:* THE, THE REASON THAT I FIND IT PECULIAR THAT YOU WOULD SAY YOU ARE NOT CELIBATE IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF HEALTH NEEDS IN TERMS OF CLEANLINESS, AND THE TEMPERATURE OF THIS ROOM FOR INSTANCE. YOU DO NOT, AS WE NORMALLY DO, SHAKE HANDS WHEN YOU GREET SOMEONE. AND YOU'VE SPOKEN VERY FREQUENTLY OF THE AND THE DANGER THAT AIDS PRESENTS TO THE WORLD. I WONDER IF YOU HAVE A FEAR OF INFECTION?

A:* No, I don't have a fear of infection. But my people have, that I should not be infected by anything. They would like me to be with them as long as possible. As far as I am concerned, my work is done. I am perfectly fulfilled, I have arrived home. There is nowhere to go. So if I die this very moment, nothing is left incomplete.

But my people, they are still on the way. They need a friend who knows the way, who has reached the home. They need help, encouragement, guidance. They would like me to be with them as long as I can. And they have managed the whole commune according to my health needs.

Q:* THE PRECAUTIONS THAT ARE TAKEN WITH SEX -- WITH THE CONDOMS AND THE GLOVES, THE SPRAYING THE ALCOHOL ON HANDS AND THE PHONES -- THESE ARE TAKEN IN CONSIDERATION OF YOUR NEEDS?

A:* No. They are not my needs. They are their needs.

Q:* THEIR NEEDS FOR YOUR PRESERVATION THOUGH?

A:* Yes.

Q:* I HAVE BEEN TOLD THAT PREGNANT WOMEN ARE NOT ENCOURAGED TO COME HERE AND THAT SANNYASINS ARE NOT ENCOURAGED TO HAVE CHILDREN HERE.

A:* Yes.

Q:* WHY IS THAT?

A:* In fact, the question seems to be very irrational. Seeing the world overpopulated, no rational man can ask the question why they are not encouraged. Thousands of people are dying every day with hunger and you want my people to produce children, to make the world more poor? Thousands of people are going to die and are dying with AIDS.

Do you want my people to produce children in a world where the children will be getting inheritance of hunger, AIDS, nuclear weapons, a third world war?

I don't think anybody who loves will produce a child in this world. This world is already mad, and unless we change this world, every intelligent person should stop producing children.

This world can be happy only with one-fourth of its population. It is now four billion. By the end of this century it will be five billion. And when this population will be five billion, you can conceive the situation.

Fifty percent of India -- that means four hundred million people -- are not getting two times food, only one time at the most.

Q:* I AGREE WITH YOU, BUT YOU SAID ALSO THE OTHER NIGHT THAT YOU WERE DESTROYING RAJNEESHISM AS A RELIGION....

A:* Yes.

Q:*... BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T WANT A SYSTEM OF BELIEFS, BUT YOU ALSO WANTED NO LEADERS OR NO HIGH PRIESTESSES TELLING SANNYASINS WHAT A RELIGION WAS AFTER YOU WERE GONE.

A:* That's true.

Q:* IF THE COMMUNE DOES NOT REPRODUCE IT'LL BE LIKE THE SHAKER SOCIETIES OF NEW ENGLAND THAT HAD NO CHILDREN AND VANISHED IN FIFTY YEARS.

A:* There is no harm. If the commune disappears, there is no harm. Shakers disappearing in England has done no harm.

Any harm that has been done is by those who have not disappeared! If the pope and six-hundred-million Catholics have also disappeared, it would have been a tremendous relief.

Q:* YOU HAVE SAID THAT YOU WANTED TO RETURN THE TOWN OF ANTELOPE TO ITS ORIGINAL RESIDENTS....

A:* That's true.

Q:*... IF THEY WOULD BUY BACK THE PROPERTY. THEY TOLD ME THAT THEY FAVOR A DISINCORPORATION BECAUSE THEY FEAR THAT EVEN IF THE TOWN CHANGES ITS NAME BACK TO ANTELOPE THE SANNYASINS WILL OUTNUMBER THEM AND WILL STILL CONTROL THE TOWN GOVERNMENT.

A:* First think of one thing: if they are incapable of purchasing the properties, then certainly the sannyasins will outnumber them. And it is a democracy.

Q:* BUT I THOUGHT YOU IMPLIED THIS MORNING THAT YOU WOULD ASK ALL SANNYASINS TO LEAVE RAJNEESH.

A:* I will. But they should purchase the properties as we have purchased from them.

Q:* ONLY IF THE PROPERTIES ARE PURCHASED THEN?

A:* Unless, why we should leave? Those are our properties. And there are only twelve Antelope people and one hundred sannyasins -- do you want in a democracy twelve persons should rule one hundred people? That should be simply stupid. And we are offering them that they can purchase back all the properties and we will immediately move. Then whatsoever they want to do with their town they can do. They can decompose it, they can destroy it, they can put fire to it -- whatsoever they want. But we don't want to do anything like that.

That is not friendship. Decomposing, destroying a city, we consider an act of antagonism.

And why they are asking that? We are ready to give the properties to them, then they can have their own council and decide whatever they want to decide. We will not be interfering at all. But if they cannot purchase the properties, then they should ask all the Oregonians who were so much helpful, being hostile to us, that, "This is the time to show your real friendship -- you purchase the properties."

If they can gather signatures -- one hundred thousand signatures they need to put a bill for destroying the city -- they should rather ask people in Oregon.

There are enough rich people who can purchase this small town very easily, and we will vacate immediately. Not even a second we want to be there!

Those houses are just simply rotten, third-rate. And if they cannot purchase, then they should move out -- they are only twelve people. We are ready to purchase their houses. Either way, they should decide it.

Q:* IS IT FAIR TO SAY THAT ASIDE FROM THE ALLEGATIONS THAT YOU HAVE MADE AGAINST SHEELA AND HER GROUP, THAT WHAT THE COMMUNE IS EXPERIENCING NOW IS SORT OF A CULTURAL REVOLUTION, A WHOLE CHANGE IN ATTITUDES IN WORK?...

A:* That's bound to be happening.

Q:*... AND THAT IF THAT IS TRUE, SOME WOULD ARGUE THAT WITHOUT A HIERARCHY, WITHOUT A POWER STRUCTURE, THAT THE SOCIETY WOULD BECOME TOO ANARCHISTIC, THAT WORK WOULDN'T GET DONE, THAT THERE WOULD BE FINANCIAL PROBLEMS.

A:* No. I am here to see. For thirty years in India I was there and without any hierarchy, without any power structure, work was being done. I don't have any power, but I have something more than power and that is my love.

And the work will happen and will happen far more creatively, far more lovingly.

And those who are basically slaves, they may find it a little difficult. Freedom is very difficult for slaves. They need somebody to goad them on. We will put them through therapies to destroy their program of slavery in the mind. We will deprogram them. And there are very few people who are so much conditioned for slavery, so there is no problem.

And even if a little less work happens, freedom is far more valuable.

Q:* IS THE COMMUNE IN FINANCIAL DIFFICULTIES?

A:* No difficulty at all.

Q:* EVEN WITHOUT THE FORTY-THREE MILLION THAT'S IN THE SWISS BANK ACCOUNT?

A:* They were never here. They were to come here, but they never reached here, so in fact they don't make any difference to us. And as far as money is concerned, we have enough creative people and we are not in any financial trouble.

Q:* I'M TOLD YOU TAKE TWO ICE BATHS A DAY. WHY?

A:* I love it.

Q:* SO YOU LIKE THE PHYSICAL SENSATION OF IT?

A:* I love... it is healthful to my body. Changing from hot to cold, from cold to hot, and ending with cold, it is immensely healthful for body -- for everybody, because it gives the body a tremendous change. With the hot, every fiber of the body expands, with the cold it shrinks. It is the best exercise possible without doing any exercise.

Q:* I KNOW THAT YOU GIVE THE DISCOURSE IN THE MORNING AND YOU MEET THE PRESS IN THE EVENING. COULD YOU BRIEFLY TELL ME HOW YOU SPEND THE REST OF YOUR DAY?

A:* My life is very simple. Two hours in my bath and swimming pool in the morning, two hours in the evening, two hours in the morning talk... Two hours in the morning discourse. Two hours in the evening interviews. Two hours afternoon sleep. One hour for my secretary after the interview. One and half hour I go for a drive in the mountains -- that is the only time that is for me.

otherwise I am completely engaged from six in the morning until eleven or twelve in the night.

It depends on the work, how much work the secretary has, because I have communes all around the world. So letters from them, their problems, everything I have to look after.

Q:* WHY DO YOU NOT VISIT THOSE COMMUNES?

A:* Just my health does not allow. And when I can manage from sitting here, giving an interview to you and to all kinds of media, there is no need. They are seeing me every day, morning discourse, evening interview. Tomorrow you will be all over the world, seen by my commune people.

Your newspaper may be late but my video will be there tomorrow!

Q:* TOMORROW?

A:* Yes. Immediately. They get everything that they need.

So there is no reason for it. I have asked my scientists -- I have scientists, psychologists, professors, doctors, every kind of people in the commune -- I have asked them that the video should be three-dimensional. Why it should be flat?

And they should work upon it to make it three-dimensional, then it is exactly as if I am visiting the commune and any moment I may come out of the screen.

Q:* I BELIEVE AFTER YOU EXPERIENCED ENLIGHTENMENT YOU WERE SILENT FOR SOME YEARS. IS THAT CORRECT?

A:* Not silent, but I did not speak about the enlightenment for few years.

Q:* AND YOU WERE SILENT FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS UNTIL LAST YEAR?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WOULD YOU ANTICIPATE ANOTHER BLOCK OF SILENCE IN YOUR LIFE?

A:* No. There is no need.

Q:* YOU WILL SPEAK FROM NOW UNTIL YOUR....

A:* Now I am going to speak until my last breath.

Q:* SOME CRITICS SAY THAT YOU ARE DESTROYING YOUR CHARISMA BY SPEAKING TOO MUCH. WOULD YOU COMMENT ON THAT?

A:* I am destroying everything!

I want to leave this world as if I have never been here. I don't want to leave any footprints, so that no idiot starts following the footprints. I will destroy everything.

Q:* OTHER CRITICS SAY THAT SANNYASINS FOR THE MOST PART ARE PEOPLE OF THE SIXTIES GENERATION WHO ARE LOOKING FOR SPIRITUAL ANSWERS, AND THAT SPIRITUAL REMEDIES DO NOT HAVE AN APPEAL FOR SEVENTIES -- PEOPLE BORN IN THE SEVENTIES OR THE FIFTIES, AND THAT THEREFORE YOU'RE SPEAKING TO A VERY SMALL AND SELECT AUDIENCE. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT TO BE TRUE?

A:* That is not true, because I am speaking almost every day to one million sannyasins around the world and two million sympathizers around the world.

I have four hundred books. Most of them are being translated in almost all the major languages of the world. Millions of people have read them who have not heard me.

And now I have opened sannyas for a wider public. I have withdrawn the red dress, the mala, because thousands of people wanted to be sannyasins but just because of the clothes and the mala they felt difficulties in the world -- their job, their family, their wife, their parents, their friends -- and it was too much of a trouble.

I have withdrawn everything. Now whatsoever remains is something inner which neither the wife can detect nor the father nor the job nor the friends.

Q:* SO YOU WOULD LIKE TO REACH A WIDER AUDIENCE? YOU WOULD LIKE ALL OREGONIANS TO BECOME SANNYASINS?

A:* I would like the whole world to become sannyasins -- why just Oregonians?

Oregon is just a small place. I don't count it at all.

The whole world -- because I don't want anybody to remain any more Christian, Hindu, Mohammedan, Jew, because all these religions have destroyed so much in man that now it is time man should get free of them.

Q:* TELL ME, IF YOU WOULD, THE MEANING OF THE ROLLS ROYCES?

A:* I am not a worshiper of poverty, as all the religions are. And because of their worship of poverty, they are responsible for poverty in the world.

To me, wealth is as significant as any other creative act. Everybody is not a Picasso, everybody is not a Ford either. And I respect both.

All the religions have created the idea that to be rich is something wrong. Jesus says, "A camel can pass through the eye of a needle, but a rich man cannot pass through the gates of heaven."

Now these are the people who are responsible for keeping humanity poor. They are giving poor people opium, that "You are the blessed one" -- while they are the cursed one.

I do not agree with Jesus. I can see what he is doing, and that's being done by all the religions in different ways. I am the only man perhaps who is not a hypocrite.

Pope goes on worshiping Jesus and still he holds the biggest and the largest empire in the world: six hundred million Catholics and the Vatican is the richest....

Q:* MAYBE HE AGREES WITH YOU ABOUT WEALTH?

A:* If he agrees with me, then he should say so. Then the Polack should speak.

Q:* DO YOU BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION?

A:* I don't believe in anything. I know. It is a truth.

Q:* YOU KNOW THAT YOU WILL LIVE IN SOME FORM BEYOND THIS LIFE?

A:* Not in any form. I will live without form.

Q:* ETERNALLY?

A:* Eternally. I have been here eternally and I am going to be here eternally.

Q:* WILL YOU HAVE CONSCIOUSNESS BEYOND DEATH?

A:* Yes, because death has nothing to do with consciousness.

Q:* WILL YOU HAVE IDENTITY BEYOND DEATH?

A:* No identity.

Q:* I HAVE NO MORE QUESTIONS. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BHAGWAN.

A:* Good. Come again... in this life, not in reincarnation!

INTERVIEW WITH JEANINE PERRETT FROM THE AUSTRALIAN.

QUESTION:* YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING BECAUSE OF YOUR PERIOD OF SILENCE; HOW CAN YOU BE SURE THAT THERE ARE NOT PROBLEMS, SIMILAR THINGS, GOING ON IN OTHER COMMUNES AROUND THE WORLD?

A:* There may have been going while I was silent, but nobody has escaped from any other commune in the world. And they are all happy that Sheela has left.

They are happy that they have been harassed by Sheela and her group, so I don't think anything was happening as criminal as Sheela's group was doing here.

Q:* YOU SAY YOU DON'T THINK SO, BUT YOU CAN'T REALLY BE SURE, CAN YOU?

A:* I... how I can be sure? But soon it will come out if anything was happening.

Once Sheela's gang is caught up -- and they are going to be caught up, because every evidence is being produced.... Now there is no way for them to escape.

Q:* BUT THAT'S IN CONFLICT WITH WHAT YOUR MAYOR SAID THIS AFTERNOON, WHO SAID THAT THE INVESTIGATION IS ACTUALLY CONCENTRATING ON IMMIGRATION QUESTIONS ABOUT YOURSELF RATHER THAN ON CATCHING THE CRIMINALS.

A:* They can concentrate on my immigration problem. It will take at least one hundred twenty years to decide. By that time I will be dead, they will be dead, their children will be dead.

Q:* BY THE TIME THEY CATCH UP WITH SHEELA THAT COULD BE THE CASE?

A:* No. It's different group is looking for Sheela's. My question is in INS' hands.

Sheela's criminal acts are in FBI, state police, county police, city police. These are two different sections, different agencies. They have nothing to do with each other.

Q:* THEN YOU'RE HAPPY WITH THE WAY THE INVESTIGATION IS GOING AT THE MOMENT THEN?

A:* Yes. I'm perfectly happy.

Q:* THEN THESE REPORTS IN YOUR NEWSPAPER ABOUT YOU BEING WORRIED THAT THEY DIDN'T WANT TO INTERVIEW YOU -- THAT'S NOT CORRECT? YOU'RE NOT WORRIED THAT THEY PUT OFF THOSE APPOINTMENTS?

A:* No. Once I made the statement to the press, they have come to their senses immediately and they have started investigating....

Q:* THIS IS WHY THEY PUT OUT SEVEN SEARCH WARRANTS TODAY, THEN, YOU THINK?

A:* They are doing perfectly well. They have not interviewed me and I don't think they have guts to interview me.

Q:* THAT INDICATES YOU'RE NOT QUITE HAPPY WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING?

A:* I'm quite happy, because the way they are doing... and every evidence is being produced to them.

Q:* DO YOU THINK PERHAPS YOU'VE CREATED SOMETHING OF A MONSTER, BRINGING THEM IN HERE NOW?

A:* No.

Q:* YOU DON'T MIND THEM SMASHING WINDOWS, BREAKING DOWN DOORS, TAKING WHATEVER... INVESTIGATING, TAKING FILES. YOU DON'T MIND HOW FAR IT GOES, WHAT THEY FIND?

A:* It cannot go any far, because there is nothing. Whatever WE are giving them, that's all. What they are searching, is just wasting time.

Q:* YOU'RE SURE YOU'RE HAPPY WITH THE WAY THE INVESTIGATION'S GOING?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE THREE YEARS OF SILENCE, BHAGWAN?

A:* In the beginning there was no reason. I just was tired of thirty years continuous speaking. And my health was bad, and that was the only way to rest.

Q:* WELL, YOU'RE NOW GIVING THREE INTERVIEWS A NIGHT AND SPEAKING EACH MORNING -- HOW'S THAT AFFECTING YOUR HEALTH?

A:* No. Now it is perfectly good, because I have managed -- my health has come right. And I have managed the whole commune in such a way because my sickness is not something that you can cure. You can only take precautions and it will not occur.

For example, I am allergic to few things. If those things don't come near to me, then my allergies remain dormant, I am perfectly okay.

Q:* THAT'S THE NATURE OF YOUR ILLNESS -- ALLERGIES, IS IT?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WHAT DID NOT SPEAKING DO FOR ALLERGIES?

A:* Because speaking, and thousands of people coming to listen.... Somebody is wearing perfume and that is enough. So now I am speaking only with my sannyasins who know that they don't have to wear any perfume.

And people get upset if outsiders come and you tell them that "You have to take a bath before you can go into the discourse." They get upset; they think they are being unnecessarily harassed....

So in India it was a difficulty. Now it is not a difficulty. We have our own people who understand, themselves. There is no need to say anything to them.

So one is my allergies, smoke -- now this was difficult in India. How can you stop neighbors not burning something, creating some smoke? And if you try, then they feel offended.

Now the nearest neighbor is twenty miles away. We have one hundred twenty- six square miles, complete space for ourselves, so no question of anybody creating any smoke. All our houses are air-conditioned for all five hun...

thousand sannyasins, no dust.

(Tape side B: there may be something missing at the beginning of this tape.) Q:* YOU'VE CONCEDED THAT YOUR THREE AND A HALF YEAR SILENCE WAS ONE OF THE REASONS SHEELA WAS ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH WHAT SHE DID. YOU SAID AGAIN....

A:* It was not one of the reasons but it gave her an opportunity.

Q:* DO YOU NOW REGRET THAT THREE AND A HALF YEAR SILENCE?

A:* No. I don't regret ever, for anything. Whatever happened was good. We got rid of the whole gang. Otherwise it would have been difficult to get rid of them.

Q:* WAS IT WORTH THE FORTY-THREE MILLION THEY SUPPOSEDLY TOOK WITH THEM?

A:* Forty-three million means nothing to me. If they had asked forty-three million, without doing all this nonsense, I would have told them, "Take forty- three million and get lost! There is no need to kill people, there is no need to poison anybody. If you need money, just take the money and get lost!"

Money has never been a problem to me -- I don't have a single dollar. But it has never been a problem to me because I have so many lovers around the world that any moment any amount of money can be made available here immediately.

Q:* WHAT'S THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF THE MONEY? YOU SAID YOU DON'T WANT ANYTHING TO CARRY ON WHEN YOU'VE LEFT. WHERE WILL THE MONEY GO?

A:* The commune is going to expand every day. This is only the beginning. We have the land three times bigger than New York, and do you want in this vast land only five thousand people to live? One hundred thousand sannyasins are going to live here.

Q:* THIS IS AFTER YOUR DEATH AS WELL?

A:* No, now -- before my death!

Q:* SO THEN WHAT HAPPENS ON YOUR DEATH WHEN YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE TO FOLLOW YOUR FOOTSTEPS?

A:* Don't care... I don't care about anything even before my death, so after my death why should I care?

To you I die; to me you all die. Death means double. It is not only my death; to me the whole world also dies at the same moment.

Q:* YES, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE A LOT OF MONEY TO WORRY ABOUT WHEN THEY DIE.

A:* There is no question.

Q:* YOU SAID EARLIER THAT YOU WERE DESTROYING EVERYTHING, YOU DIDN'T WANT ANYBODY TO FOLLOW IN YOUR FOOTSTEPS. IS THAT WHY THE PRESS CONFERENCE EARLIER THIS WEEK TO ANNOUNCE THAT THE END OF THE CLOTHES, THE WORD RAJNEESH? IS THAT THE START OF THE DISMANTLING OF...?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WHAT BROUGHT IT ON NOW? WAS IT PURELY SHEELA OR HAVE YOU DECIDED THE TIME HAS COME TO START DISMANTLING THE...?

A:* No, the time has come. People are mature enough. They have lived with me for fifteen years, ten years, and they are mature enough. They don't need baby clothes. They are big enough.

Q:* WHY THIS WEEK ARE THEY BIG ENOUGH? WHY WASN'T IT A MONTH AGO OR SIX MONTHS AGO? WHAT'S PROMPTED THIS?

A:* Any time you would have asked the same question.

Q:* YOUR CONCERN ABOUT AIDS, BHAGWAN. HOW DID SHEELA AND YOU GET SO OUT OF STEP ON THE AIDS QUESTION IF SHE WAS THE ONLY PERSON YOU WERE CONSULTING WITH EACH DAY FOR THREE YEARS?

A:* She was obsessed with sex because she was raped very early in her life.

Perhaps she was fifteen or sixteen. And then she became pregnant. And the man who raped her was the closest friend of his father, whom she respected just as his father.

That created a certain wound that has not healed. She is against men as such.

And she is obsessed with sex because of that rape has never allowed her to have any orgasm. She simply shrinks rather than opening to the experience of orgasm.

While making love she simply shrinks, becomes tight. Naturally, in that tense state you can't have orgasm.

She has changed many husbands, thinking perhaps somebody else will be able to give her the orgasmic feeling. She had had many boyfriends.

Q:* WERE YOU ONE OF THEM?

A:* No.

Q:* WHEN YOU SAY SHE IS OBSESSED WITH SEX, THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO LOOK AT YOUR COMMUNE AND WOULD SAY THE SAME THING ABOUT YOURSELF AND YOUR FOLLOWERS.

A:* That is up to them to say. I cannot stop anybody saying anything. I am not obsessed with sex. No woman has raped me yet. Do you want to try?

Q:* NO.

A:* Thank you.

Q:* WHAT ABOUT THE AIDS QUESTION? IF YOU WERE IN A PERIOD OF SILENCE....

A:* Yes, yes, change the subject right now.

Q:*... FOR THREE YEARS.... I AM NOT OBSESSED WITH SEX!

A:* I have been seeing the journalists. They change the subject when I touch their nerve.

Q:* IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE TALKING ABOUT IT, I'M QUITE WILLING TO. IS THERE ANYTHING YOU FEEL YOU CAN ADD?

A:* You just ask what you want.

Q:* IF YOU WERE SILENT FOR THREE AND A HALF YEARS AND YOU ONLY COMMUNICATED WITH SHEELA, WHERE DID YOUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE FACT THAT AIDS WAS GOING TO COME DOWN AND DESTROY THE WORLD COME FROM?

A:* Any information that I had was from Sheela. Sheela was my only source of all information, all communication with the commune.

Q:* SO IT WAS SHEELA WHO GAVE YOU THE IMPRESSION THAT AIDS WAS A PROBLEM, YET IT WAS THE SAME SHEELA WHO ALSO WANTED TO MOVE AIDS VICTIMS INTO THIS COMMUNE?

A:* Yes.

Q:* ISN'T THERE A CONFLICT THERE?

A:* There seems to be no conflict. Whatever she gave -- the information -- after my silence I have found that it is perfectly right. But what she did, she never told me: that she tried two sannyasins, forcibly cheated them, perhaps changed their blood or mixed their blood with AIDS virus. She had a assistant, Puja, who is a trained nurse and a very criminal mind, who was experimenting in Sheela's house how to create virus, how to manage slow doses of poison that a person dies in a long time, so you can never think of him as poisoned.

So she forced two sannyasins who were not ready to do something that she wanted them to do. The whole commune was checked, and two persons were found having AIDS. And after she left they were checked again. One has died.

The other has been found that he has no AIDS.

So that seems the blood was changed.

Q:* SO YOU DON'T THINK THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH AIDS OR THERE'S ANY CHANCE OF AIDS CREEPING INTO THIS COMMUNE HERE?

A:* No, but there are, because from other communes where they don't have any medical facilities eight or nine sannyasins have come. So there are eight or nine sannyasins who have AIDS, and we are taking care of them.

We have made a separate faraway place for them, very beautiful scenic place, perhaps the most beautiful in the whole commune, the best houses, given them all facilities -- books to read, to write, and whatever they want to do -- gardening, carpentry or anything -- sculpture, music. These two years are their last time.

Perhaps from six months to two years they will be alive. And we can afford them their best. And this is a good chance for them to meditate.

Q:* AND THEY'RE HERE IN OREGON?

A:* They are here in Rajneeshpuram.

Q:* AND DO YOU EXPECT THE NUMBER TO INCREASE?

A:* No, because I will not be accepting anybody who is not a sannyasin.

Q:* AND YOU DON'T THINK AIDS CAN INCREASE IN...?

A:* No.

Q:* SO I SUPPOSE YOU THINK IF MOST OTHER PEOPLE FOLLOWED THE EXAMPLE SET HERE, AIDS WOULDN'T BE AS BIG A PROBLEM?

A:* Yes, it will be helpful if every city follows the same idea the way we are doing. Every city should check every person in the city and find out the AIDS people and keep them in isolation. But do not humiliate them. Do not condemn them. They are simply victims.

Q:* THAT'S A MORE CONCILIATORY TURN FOR YOU ON AIDS, ISN'T IT?

YOU'VE BEEN QUITE OUTSPOKEN....

A:* Because they are victims. The disease is created by all the founders of religion. Because they have been propounding celibacy. And celibacy is absolutely unnatural. And when you force monks to live together, nuns to live together, you are creating the situation for homosexuality, lesbianism. So the first source of homosexuality is religious, and it is going on still.

Celibacy should be condemned as a crime and all monks should be married to nuns. And we have found even for Pope the Polack, Mother Teresa.

Q:* YOU SAID BEFORE THAT YOU COULDN'T TRAVEL TO YOUR OTHER COMMUNES AROUND THE WORLD BECAUSE OF YOUR HEALTH. PEOPLE IN YOUR COMMUNE HAVE SAID THAT THE REASON YOU DON'T TRAVEL TO YOUR OTHER AREAS OF THE WORLD IS BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY UNTIL YOU GET A GREEN CARD.

BUT ONCE YOU GET THE GREEN CARD, YOU'RE QUITE WILLING TO TRAVEL.

A:* I have told myself to the press conference that four years they could not decide. What kind of intelligent people you have got in America? The whole department of INS for four years is working out, and they could not decide yes or no for me.

I am not leaving America unless they give me the green card, and that too is not a promise that I will leave. That simply means that I may think of visiting some other commune to see what is the situation there -- if my health permits.

Q:* WOULD AUSTRALIA BE ONE OF THOSE COMMUNES? IT'S OFTEN BEEN MENTIONED THAT PERHAPS YOU MIGHT GO OUT THERE IF YOU COULDN'T STAY IN AMERICA ANY LONGER.

A:* No, Australia is not a very great commune yet. Germany will be my place if I go. Switzerland will be my place. Holland will be my place if I go. These three places I have the best communes who can manage for my health everything.

Australia is new.

Q:* SHEELA'S NOT SORT OF SETTING UP THE WAY FOR YOU, IS SHE?

SHEELA'S NOT THERE SORT OF SETTING UP THE COMMUNES AND HELPING...?

A:* She cannot even enter a commune. She is hiding in a forest.

Q:* HAS ANYBODY OFFERED TO MAKE A MOVIE OF THE LAST FEW MONTHS' EVENTS HERE? HAVE YOU HAD ANY APPROACHES FROM HOLLYWOOD?

A:* Nobody has offered. You can manage if you want. Okay?

INTERVIEW WITH PAM ABRAMSON FROM NEWSWEEK.

BHAGWAN:* Good evening.

QUESTION:* I'VE SPENT ABOUT A WEEK HERE LAST YEAR AND CAME AWAY TRULY FEELING THE BUDDHAFIELD, AND MY PUBLICATION ENDED UP WRITING A RATHER NEGATIVE PIECE ABOUT THE COMMUNE ANYWAY. AND, AS IT TURNS OUT, OUR NEGATIVE PIECE SORT OF MADE THIS PLACE LOOK LIKE ROMPER ROOM COMPARED WITH WHAT WAS REALLY GOING ON HERE.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHY WE SHOULD BELIEVE WHAT YOU'RE SAYING RIGHT NOW, NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT SHEELA BUT ABOUT YOUR NOT KNOWING WHAT WAS GOING ON. AFTER ALL YOU'RE THE ENLIGHTENED ONE.

A:* There is no reason to believe in me.

Q:* WELL, PEOPLE ARE LAUGHING, BUT WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? DOES THAT MEAN THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS...?

A:* That simply means you are nuts.

Q:* WELL, IN WHAT WAY AM I NUTS?

A:* Because first you came here. You believed Sheela and you could not manage to write what you have seen here. And your directors and your owners of Newsweek simply turned the whole article negative. And you don't have guts even enough to resign from that ugly magazine.

Q:* YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT THAT.

A:* So that's why I say you are nuts. So now there is no question of believing me or not. You ask the question. I answer you. You go to your director, and whatever they want to publish they can publish. Your writing makes no sense.

Last time your writing was completely rejected by your directors.

Q:* NO, THAT'S NOT THE CASE AT ALL.

A:* That is the case because Sheela has told me that you are absolutely positive and happy, and when I saw your article it was absolutely negative.

Q:* I MEAN, WHAT WE HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE PLACE TURNED OUT TO BE NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING NOW.

A:* That means your directors are prophets or something? So that's good. You write it and take to your directors, and they can prophesy whether it is right or wrong. There is no question of believing me.

Q:* DO YOU SAY THE SAME THING TO YOUR SANNYASINS? DO YOU WANT THEM TO BELIEVE?

A:* I have been saying to them, "Nobody needs to believe me." They have to think on their own. Belief is not my number.

Q:* WELL, HOW ABOUT RESPONSIBILITY? I MEAN, DO YOU FEEL IN ANY WAY...?

A:* I don't feel any responsibility about anybody.

Q:* HOW ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT WERE BEING POISONED? HOW ABOUT HASYA? HOW ABOUT HER HUSBAND? HOW ABOUT THE MAN WHO DIED?

A:* I don't feel any responsibility about anybody. They are all mature people and they have their own responsibility. They are not dependent on me.

Q:* DO YOU NOT FEEL ANY RESPONSIBILITY AT ALL FOR THE GOINGS- ON OVER THE LAST...?

A:* For not knowing I have to be responsible.

Q:* SO YOU FEEL RESPONSIBLE FOR NOT KNOWING?

A:* So you mean to say that whatever Nixon was doing you weren't responsible for not knowing it?

Q:* WELL HE WAS RESPONSIBLE.

A:* No, you were responsible.

Q:* NO, I WASN'T RESPONSIBLE, BUT....

A:* Why?

Q:* I DON'T EVEN KNOW RICHARD NIXON.

A:* So then why I should be responsible if I did not know?

Q:* BECAUSE THIS IS YOUR PLACE.

A:* And this America is not your country?

Q:* NOT THE SAME WAY THAT THIS COMMUNE IS YOURS.

A:* No.

Q:* PEOPLE ARE HERE BECAUSE OF YOU, NOT BECAUSE OF ME. BECAUSE OF YOU.

A:* No, no. They are here not because of me but because of their love for me. It is their love they are here.

Q:* SO OUT OF LOVE SHOULDN'T YOU HAVE BEEN MORE ON TOP OF WHAT WAS GOING ON AROUND HERE? WHAT DID YOU TALK TO SHEELA ABOUT?

A:* You just ask questions.

Q:* I DO.

A:* You just give her some water.

Q:* SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS AREN'T EVEN MINE. THEY'RE WHAT YOUR SANNYASINS ARE ASKING.

A:* Anybody's questions, but don't waste time. Simply ask the questions. You give her first water.

Q:* YOU'VE DECLARED AN END TO RAJNEESHISM. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? HOW WILL THINGS BE DIFFERENT? WHAT CHANGES ARE IN STORE?

A:* There has been never a religion before I went into silence. And I have been always against organized religion.

Because I was in isolation and silence Sheela and her group created Rajneeshism as a religion, and she became the high priestess of that religion.

The moment I came out of my silence, I saw that she has gone absolutely against my teachings. So the only way is to undo everything that she has done in three and a half years.

She has written a book: Rajneeshism. I hate the word ism. It simply stinks. So I told my people to burn that book, and with it burn the very idea that you are a religion.

I have a way of life. I have a way of spiritual growth, but it is not an organized religion.

And I don't want anybody to be succeeded by me. I don't want another popedom and a Vatican.

I have taken from the sannyasins everything that makes them distinct. I have told them, "Now it is not necessary to wear red clothes. All colors are ours. There is no need to wear a mala of my photo because I am not your savior or prophet or a messenger.

"I don't have any God to offer you. I can only offer you the science of knowing thyself. So you just have to understand that I am only a friend, not more than that. I am one amongst you, so no need of any adoration and no need of thinking yourself as part of a collectivity. You are all individuals.

"If you are living together, it is simply because you are all searching into yourself. Everybody is searching within himself, alone; nobody else can go with you. But because your search is the same, you can create a commune which can be supportive. Alone, perhaps, you may not be able to go inside. It is the most arduous journey in the world."

"With so many people going into themselves, a certain atmosphere of encouragement -- people becoming more loving, people becoming more silent, people becoming more serene -- you can see their faces full of joy, rejoicing for nothing, dancing. You can also gather courage to go in, however difficult in the beginning it is.

"Only the beginning is difficult. The first step is almost half the journey. And in the second step the journey is over."

Q:* HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE ABLE TO CONVEY TO THE IRS THAT THIS COMMUNE SHOULDN'T PAY TAXES THE SAME WAY THAT IT DIDN'T WHEN IT WAS A RELIGION?

A:* Because it is a way of being religious. It is not a religion. It is a way of being spiritual. It is not an organized religion. It has every right not to pay any taxes to anybody.

Q:* BECAUSE THERE ARE RELIGIOUS PEOPLE HERE?

A:* Certainly. Anybody who goes inwards becomes religious. By going to the church you don't become religious. But by going inwards you certainly become religious. By going to the church you become a Christian, a Hindu, a Jew, a Mohammedan. Those people should be taken away their tax-exempt status. They are not religious. They are pretenders, hypocrites.

These people are mystics. They are trying to discover the mystery of their own being, and this is the highest religiousness possible to human beings.

So what tax-exempt status? There is no problem.

I will face those people. You don't worry about them. You worry about your own paper.

Q:* YOU SEEM TO HINT TONIGHT THAT YOU WERE, INDEED, READY TO FIRE SHEELA ANYWAY. IS THAT TRUE?

A:* It is true.

Q:* SO THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY REGARDLESS? I MEAN, SHE WOULD HAVE LOST HER JOB AS YOUR PRIVATE SECRETARY SOONER OR LATER?

A:* That is certain.

Q:* WHY DID IT TAKE SO LONG? YOU'VE BEEN TALKING FOR A YEAR, RIGHT?

A:* I have been talking almost a year. But there were so many litigations in which Sheela was involved, and I was waiting that she cleans all litigations that she has created. And this was the time when all... she is free of all litigations. And she can be freed.

If she had not escaped, she would have been a respectable member of the commune -- unless her crimes were discovered. Then those crimes she would have to face the court and the law. We cannot protect any criminal.

We will respect her for whatever she has done to the commune, but we cannot respect her criminal activities.

So we would have even now accept her if she comes back. She will be a member of the commune, well respected because she has made four year work trememdous job. Just she slipped a little bit and got into a power trip. For that whe will have to face the law.

And it is better and dignified that she comes back here rather than hiding like a criminal. It is better to be back to the commune where she will feel nourished.

And she can fight against the law. Or she can confess to the court that, "All these things I have done and whatsoever punishment is there I am ready to accept it."

That will be more dignified. And she will be unburdened spiritually.

But this was certain, that she was going to be dropped from her position. Her work was done.

Q:* HAD YOU TOLD HER THAT?

A:* No. She has not even seen me before she left. For almost a month she had not seen me. She has been escaping for all these six months to Europe, to Switzerland, to Australia -- for any excuse, that, "There is work."

The only reason was she was afraid to face me. And whenever she will come back she will say that she has cold, and because I have this allergy so she cannot come to see me, she will be sending her second, her assistant.

So she was avoiding even to see me, to face me, because she knew that I am becoming aware of things that she has done. But there was no proof yet.

Three persons she has poisoned, but the poison was indetectable. The doctors said, "We suspect, but it is only a speculation, that it is a indetectable poison. You can inject, you can give it in a tea, you can give it in a coffee, you can give it in food. You will feel sick, you will become weak. But there is no way to detect it."

So there was no solid ground on which.... The moment she left, finally, just within twelve hours hundreds of sannyasins opened everything: that she has bugged my own room, my caretaker's room, Hasya's whole house, the whole hotel.

Almost... one of the FBI persons said that she has bugged almost the whole city.

And the work of bugging has been done with such sophistication that Nixon is left far behind.

Every phone coming in or going out was taped, but we came to know only when she had left. All mechanism of taping phones was caught, has been delivered to the police.

In her room, books on poison, how to murder people, how to create bombs, chemicals and other elements which need to create a bomb. And in the book of poisons only one poison is underlined: which every doctor was suspecting, because that is the only one which is indetectable. In the whole book that one is underlined. That means that one has been used in all the cases.

Q:* WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST LET HER GO AND BE GONE? SHE COULD HAVE BEEN GONE AND FORGOTTEN AND, IT COULD HAVE BEEN BUSINESS AS USUAL.

A:* No. I am not that type of person. I can forgive but I cannot forget. And if she wants forgiveness, she has to come here.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD EVER HAPPEN?

A:* Her own soul will become a nightmare to her.

Q:* YOU'VE ALREADY SAID SHE'S NOT A SPIRITUAL PERSON, THOUGH.

A:* But she has a soul. Whether she is a spiritual person or not does not matter. I have never said that she has no soul. It will torture her. She will by and by recognize that the people who loved her, the people who trusted her, the people who did everything she said... because she was saying in my name everything, which I had no idea even.

Only one of her gang, a beautiful sannyasin, Ava, has turned back from Seattle.

She had also gone with the group, because she was also afraid.

She was engaged in all criminal activities: arson, burning the planning office in the Wasco County, poisoning. All the Homes-Share program people, street people, keeping them under poison, drugged, so that on the election day they can do whatsoever Sheela wants them to do just like zombies.

They did not purchase the drugs in America because they needed gallons of drugs. To purchase them they would have to satisfy the pharmacist, they will have to satisfy the government for what reason so much drugs are being purchased. But for three thousand people, to keep them for twenty-one days completely drugged, certainly she needed. So they were imported from out of America.

And one man was over-drugged and died. And they simply threw him out of Rancho Rajneesh. His body was found, but the police could not manage to figure out... he was a street person. Nobody knew from where he had come. Nobody knew how he has died.

All these things Ava knew: all the persons who have been injected poison -- my physician, my caretaker. So she had gone out of fear, that she will be left alone.

But she must have a better quality of humanity. From Seattle she came back. She said, "I am going to confess everything, and I am going to remain in the commune. The people love me. I love them. And whatever we have done, we have to face it."

Today she had given her testimony to the FBI. Her testimony is enough, because she is one of the chief in the Sheela's gang. And whatever she says is supported by hundreds of sannyasins.

Now it is up to the government to catch hold of these people.

Q:* A VERY LOVELY SANNYASIN ASKED ME TO ASK YOU. A LOT HAS BEEN SAID IN YOUR NAME. SHE WANTED TO KNOW IF YOU REALLY WANTED ALL THE SANNYASINS FROM CALIFORNIA TO MOVE HERE, OR WAS THAT SHEELA TALKING? AND SHE REALLY WANTED TO KNOW IF YOU BANNED KISSING.

A:* Certainly I have banned kissing.

Q:* THAT WAS YOUR IDEA?

A:* Yes. Because kissing is one of the causes of infecting people with AIDS.

(Tape side C) And I have called the group from Hollywood because they wanted to make a film on the commune, on me, my ideology. I had told Sheela that they should be here and work out -- and they were working out. And it is... that's how Prem Hasya, who had made with her husband one of the best movies, Godfather, wanted to make it, came in contact with me.

And I saw the beauty of the woman, the intelligence of the woman, the far different superiority to Sheela. So now Hasya is my secretary.

Q:* I THINK HER QUESTION WAS, "DID YOU ASK ALL SANNYASINS IN CALIFORNIA TO COME UP TO THE RANCH OR WAS THAT SHEELA?"

A:* No, not all sannyasins.

Q:* JUST THE ONES FROM HOLLYWOOD?

A:* Only Hasya's group.

Q:* OKAY. SO THE BIT ABOUT THE EARTHQUAKE AND IT WAS COMING AND THEY SHOULD ALL BE HERE BECAUSE IT WAS SAFE, THAT WAS SHEELA AND NOT YOU?

A:* Nothing to do with me. I had asked only Hasya and her group who was going to work the film. So their whole group is here, and now their whole group has taken the place of Sheela's gang. Now you are in Hollywood.

Q:* WELL, I LIKE HASYA A LOT AND FEEL THE SAME THING ABOUT HER THAT YOU DO.

A:* Good. But this time make your director understand....

Q:* HEY, IT'S NOT ME! IT'S THE REST OF THE WORLD THAT HAS A HARD TIME BELIEVING AND NOT... NOT SNICKERING AND WONDERING WHETHER YOU'RE DOING IT MAYBE FOR PUBLICITY, WHICH WE KNOW YOU LIKE.

A:* I love it. Don't say I like it, I love it!

Q:* THANK YOU VERY VERY....

A:* And you can make that, too, part of your article.

Q:* THAT YOU LOVE PUBLICITY?

A:* Yes.

Q:* WELL, THEN, CAN'T YOU SEE HOW SOME OF US MIGHT BE WONDERING IF ALL OF THIS ISN'T JUST TO GET...?

A:* Let them wonder! Wonder is something good. There is nothing wrong in it.

Q:* OKAY. I THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH.