Chapter 05

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words.]

Q: THINGS YOU'VE BEEN SAYING HAVE MEANT A LOT OF CHANGES FOR YOUR SANNYASINS. SPECIFICALLY: WEAR ANY COLOR YOU LIKE, DON'T WEAR YOUR MALA IF YOU DON'T WANT TO. YOU GOT ANY OTHER CHANGES IN MIND FOR YOUR SANNYASINS?

A: I don't know.

Q: NOTHING RIGHT AT THE MOMENT?

A: Anything is possible.

Q: NOTHING YOU'D LIKE TO SHARE WITH US RIGHT NOW, THOUGH?

A: No.

Q: WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THIS MOMENT? WHY DID YOU CHOOSE THIS MOMENT WHEN IT WOULD SEEM THAT YOU WOULD NEED SOMETHING TO BIND EVERYBODY TOGETHER -- LIKE CLOTHING AND MALAS -- TO SAY, "DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT ANY MORE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT"?

A: This was the right moment to do it. I want my people to be absolutely free individuals. I don't want them to be Rajneeshees. They have to be themselves.

While I was in silence, Sheela has compiled a book, THE BOOK OF RAJNEESHISM, which I am going to tell them to make a good bonfire. Then they burn it, they will invite you all, because with that book we are burning the whole idea of "ism". I don't want my people to be like any other ideology -- communism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism. That was my whole standpoint from the very beginning. I want them to be on their own, individuals -- free. no holy scripture for them, no system of beliefs for them, no god for them to pray, no messiah or savior for them to surrender to -- because all these things have destroyed humanity in the past.

Q: BUT WHAT ABOUT ALL THE REST OF YOUR BOOKS? YOU'VE GOT LOTS OF THEM.

A: Those books are simply books, not holy books.

Q: HOW ARE THEY DIFFERENT?

A: They are different. Holy books pretend some speciality; they are from God.

Holy books are lies. They are just books as we are, just human beings. I am not a savior or a prophet or a messenger of God or the only begotten son of God; I am as human as you are. My books are simply books as other books; no speciality is claimed for them. But Sheela had created a book which is just her own creation.

While I was in isolation she compiled it from here and there from my books; added something of her own, deleted something. And she was trying to create a religion -- and this is not a religion in that sense. It is simply a way of life. A kind of religiousness is there, but only as a quality. you cannot label it, you cannot name it.

So I am going to destroy every possibility that can again in my absence bring the same type of fascism into my peoples' minds.

Q: ARE YOU PLANNING ON GOING ANYWHERE SOON?

A: No, I am not going anywhere -- but I can die any day. About that there is no way to say.

Q: YOU SAID YOU DON'T WANT YOUR DISCIPLES TO BE RAJNEESHEES.

WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE US TO CALL THEM?

A: No need... you just call them by their name.

Q: SOMETIMES WE NEED TO REFER TO THEM AS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT LIVE HERE?

A: So it is just the Rajneeshpuram commune.

Q: NOTHING SHORTER THAN THAT?

A: No.

Q: THERE CERTAINLY HAS BEEN TURMOIL AND SOME CONFUSION AND SOME CHAOS IN THIS COMMUNITY, AS YOU WOULD EXPECT GIVEN SOME OF THE THINGS THAT THESE PEOPLE HAVE HAD TO DIGEST IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS. IS THAT WHAT YOU HAD IN MIND?

A: Chaos is always good. Order is always dead. Out of chaos stars are born; out of order, only Adolf Hitlers.

So I don't feel any problem with chaos. But when there is everything in order, then it becomes a concentration camp.

Chaos has a beauty. Freedom is just another name of chaos.

Q: DO YOU THINK THERE'S TOO MUCH CHAOS, THOUGH, THAT THE BUSES WON'T RUN ON TIME, THE CROPS WON'T GET HARVESTED?

A: No. There will not be. My people are intelligent enough to live in chaos and live rejoicingly and do everything that is needed, but not to surrender to any fascist regime.

Q: SOME OF YOUR SANNYASINS HAVE TOLD ME HERE THEY HAVE REALLY BEEN GOING THROUGH SOME ANGUISH LATELY. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT? SOME OF THEM HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH ENOUGH ANGUISH TO LEAVE THIS PLACE.

A: That's natural. That's absolutely natural. To rejoice in chaos one needs guts.

Very few people have that much courage. To enjoy freedom, very few people are ready. That's why a slavery exists in different names around the world.

Q: ONE THING HASYA WAS SAYING TODAY WHEN WE WERE TALKING TO HER IS THAT ANOTHER REASON FOR TELLING PEOPLE TO WEAR WHAT YOU WANT AROUND YOUR NECK AND ON YOUR BACK AND EVERYTHING ELSE, IS SO YOU CAN BLEND INTO SOCIETY BETTER.

A: That's perfectly right. I would like my people to drop all kinds of separation from the society.

Q: WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE THEM GO OUT INTO SOCIETY MORE THAN THEY HAVE, PERHAPS?

A: No, only when they need to go out. But there is no need to create unnecessary divisions. There are enough divisions in the world. Why add one more?

So I am going to destroy everything that divides man from man. And I want them to be just human beings, purely available to all kinds of societies. And wherever they go they can spread the fragrance that they have attained.

This will open doors for many people to come into the commune, to become sannyasins. There have been thousands of people who wanted to become sannyasins; just one fear, that they will lose their job if they go in red and wearing a mala; they may lose their wife, they may lose their parents -- and other human concerns.

I have one million sannyasins, and perhaps five times more people would have been sannyasins. Now I am opening doors for the others who have up to now been only sympathizers.

Q: HOW COME NOW? WHY DID YOU HAVE PEOPLE START WEARING RED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

A: It was needed in the beginning. It has served its purpose well; it became a world movement, unique in itself. There was no comparison with this movement.

Now we have made the mark, there is no need to carry it any more. Unnecessary.

Q: YOU FIGURE YOU'VE GOT A MILLION SANNYASINS AROUND THE WORLD NOW?

A: One million sannyasins are there.

Q: YOU EXPECT MOST PEOPLE TO STOP WEARING RED?

A: I don't expect; only few, not most. Mostly nobody goes out. And I have left it to them. It is their decision. If they want to go in red, that is their freedom. Who I am to decide for them?

Q: DO YOU NEED MORE SANNYASINS NOW?

A: I don't care about numbers, but there are going to be more.

Q: IS THAT GOOD OR BAD AS FAR AS YOU'RE CONCERNED, HAVING MORE SANNYASINS?

A: It is perfectly good. I would like the whole world.

Q: BUT YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT NUMBERS?

A: I don't care at all, because I am not a politician. Politicians care about numbers. It is politics of numbers: how many numbers you have, that makes you that much powerful.

Q: DOES IT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MONEY -- THE MORE SANNYASINS YOU HAVE, THE MORE WEALTH YOUR...

A: We have enough wealth. And certainly more sannyasins will bring more wealth, but we already have more than we need.

And I am not against wealth. I am not a worshiper of poverty. I hate it.

Q: THE MAJOR BANK THAT THE VARIOUS ORGANIZATIONS DEAL WITH HERE CUT YOU OFF, SO TO SPEAK. YOU CAN'T HAVE VISA CARDS USED HERE ANY MORE OR THERE'S A GOOD CHANCE YOU WON'T FOR A SHORT TIME, AT ANY RATE AT THE FIRST INTERSTATE BANK. AND YOUR CHECKING ACCOUNT MAY BE CANCELLED. WHAT'S YOUR REACTION TO THAT? IF YOU'RE SO WEALTHY...

A: It is not any concern of me. I have not even heard about it. It is you who are saying to me, so i don't know anything about it.

My people are enough intelligent6, they will manage it. And not only one bank, many banks are asking to serve the commune. So if one bank cuts, they are cutting their own neck.

Q: HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT STARTING YOUR OWN BANK HERE?

A: That is possible.

Q: I'VE HEARD THE IDEA BROUGHT UP.

A: Yes? Thank you!

Q: ANYTHING NEW AS FAR AS YOU TALKING TO THE FBI? IF THERE'S ANY HOPE THAT YOU WILL HAVE A CHAT WITH THEM OR ANOTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT BODY. ONE OF THE STATE POLICE PEOPLE THAT I TALKED TO, WHO I PERCEIVED TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST, TOLERANT AND FRIENDLY DURING THIS INVESTIGATION, HAS SAID THAT HE'S TRIED TEN TIMES TO TALK TO YOU, NOT ABOUT CRIMES BUT JUST TO TRY AND GET AROUND SOME OF THE MISUNDERSTANDINGS, AND HE HASN'T BEEN ABLE TO DO IT YET.

A: No.

Q: ANY CHANCE YOU'LL TALK TO HIM OR THE FBI?

A: Just today, not ten times. Just one time.

Q: WILL YOU TALK TO HIM?

A: No. I said no, because what he wanted to talk, I said, "I can talk it in the morning discourse. You just write the question."

And he is every day present there. He is a nice man. Unfortunately, why he entered into the police, that I don't understand. He does not belong there. He is not a policeman, he is a human being.

Q: DON'T YOU THINK IT MIGHT EASE SOME OF THE TENSION IF YOU CHATTED WITH HIM?

A: I have told him... because he simply wanted to inquire about my well-being that there is no danger to my life, which I'm not concerned with at all. With the crimes that have been committed. And he did not want to talk about them.

I said, "These things can be talked in the morning discourse. These don't need special interview."

Q: YOU SPOKE ABOUT HIJACKING AND ABOUT DEMONSTRATIONS AT EMBASSIES AND... I TOOK IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT, TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST. BUT OTHER PEOPLE DIDN'T. HOW DO WE KNOW WHEN TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY.....(DROWNED OUT BY A ROAR OF LAUGHTER) A: There is no need to take me seriously at all. And I am amazed that why Americans lack the sense of humor so much? It is such a great quality. It is missing in Americans. They are too serious. I had never expected them to be too serious. Such a young country and too serious.... They should be more sensitive towards humor. It is the quality of youth, quality of life. Only dead people cannot laugh, and only in graveyards no jokes are exchanged.

Q: SOME PEOPLE MIGHT NOT TAKE SUCH THINGS AS HIJACKING WITH A SENSE OF HUMOR I THINK.

A: They will have to take, because seeing me anybody can understand that I am not going to hijack. I cannot even carry my cross on my shoulders. I am not a Christian. I don't carry anything, have not carried anything for years. You will have to look at my hands.

One of my friends from Russia came to see me, and when he touched my hand he said, "You should never come to Russia." I said, "Why?" He said, "If you shook hands with anybody, they will think you are a bourgeois. You have never done anything; your hand is so soft!" And in Russia it is a condemnation to be a bourgeois.

So I am not going to hijack anything. Neither I am going to0 protest against American embassies.

Q: I WOULD HAVE A LOT OF TROUBLE SEEING YOU OUT THERE WITH A PICKET SIGN.

A: I just wanted to emphasize the fact that whatever FBI, state government, are trying is against American constitution and its values. Their effort is to protect the criminals, give them immunity, and charge innocent people. The whole idea is how to destroy the commune. That we are not going to allow. I have my ways how to stop it.

Q: LIKE WHAT?

A: The whole world, the whole world's intelligentsia, will be against it. All the intelligent people in media will be against it. America will lose its credibility.

And I don't think they will be able to risk so much just to destroy a small commune in this desert which is harmless, which has not done any harm to anybody.

And we are so happy that few people who could have been harmful have left.

Q: DOES IT BOTHER YOU THAT THIS COMMUNITY STILL IS, AT LEAST IN MANY WAYS, COOPERATING WITH THE INVESTIGATORS, EVEN THOUGH YOU SAID YOU WEREN'T AND YOU DIDN'T WANT THEM TO?

A: Because my whole teaching is that everybody has to decide for himself. I may say it; that I am not going to cooperate, and I may tell my people not to cooperate; still, they are fee individuals. My advice is not an order, and they will not be for that punished, condemned, expelled. No, my love and respect will remain the same. If they decide to cooperate, it is perfectly good.

Q: YOU TALK ABOUT IF YOU EVER GET YOUR GREEN CARD, TAKING A TRIP. WHAT COUNTRY WOULD YOU MOST LIKE TO VISIT?

A: Germany, in direct (inaudible) Q: GERMANY? HOW COME?

A: Because they are waiting for me. The German politicians are so much afraid that -- I am not in Germany -- but continuously in the parliament they are discussing against me. I am not in Germany, I have never put even a foot on German land -- and they have already started cases against me in the courts. That means they are really interested.

Q: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, BHAGWAN.

INTERVIEW WITH TOM PAULU, LONGVIEW DAILY NEWS, SEATTLE, WASHINGTON Q: YOU'VE INDICATED THAT YOU WANT TO IMPROVE YOUR RELATIONS WITH PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE COMMUNE IN OREGON AND IN THE NORTHWEST. CAN YOU GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES OF THINGS YOU MIGHT DO TO DO THAT?

A: For example, I have advised my people to change the name City of Rajneesh back to antelope, because that was an ugly step, unnecessarily hurting people's minds and creating hostility.

I have offered to the people of antelope and their sympathizers in Oregon to purchase all the properties that we have purchased from them at the same price.

Now, prices are almost four times more, and we have developed those properties, renovated the houses, but we would like to give them at the same price as we had purchased, just as a gesture of friendship.

And we will vacate antelope completely. They can have their city, they can have their city council, their mayor. We have enough land and enough houses, we don't need to bother.

Q: ARE YOU SAYING THAT IN ITSELF CAN BE ENOUGH OF A GESTURE TO REALLY CHANGE YOUR IMAGE WITH PEOPLE THROUGHOUT OREGON?

A: I am not interested in changing my image. I am interested that as far as we are concerned, we are not creating any hostility. Whether they change their mind or not, that is their problem.

I have told to my people that they can use all colors, no need to use only red, so that they can mix with people more easily and the separation which their clothes create is no more there.

Q: DO YOU THINK SOME PEOPLE MIGHT PERCEIVE THAT AS A THREAT?

THEY'D RATHER BE ABLE TO SAY, "WELL, THERE GOES A RAJNEESHEE -- LOOK OUT!"

A: Whatever they think, that is their problem. What is our intention, we are making it clear.

We are ready to withdraw all the cases against the government, the governor and attorney general if they are ready to withdraw their cases against us. Our cases are secondary. First they have started, so it will be simply gentlemanly: first they move their cases and immediately will move our cases against them.

And there is no need of any hostility. We have been telling them continuously that, "You can send your experts here. If we are misusing the land in any way, you tell us how to use it rightly and we will use it rightly."

In fact, for fifty years the land was not used at all and nobody was interested in it. It was for sale for fifty years and nobody purchased it because nobody thought that it can produce anything. It was simply a desert.

We tried hard to make it an oasis, and now we are self-sufficient. Five thousand people's food, vegetables, fruits, milk products -- everything we are producing.

And this they call misuse of the land.

They can come and they can see what misuse it is. If this is misuse, then we would like to learn what is use. And we are open.

All the ranches neighboring our ranch are poor, dead. In fact, they should tell those ranchers to come here and learn how to transform a desert into an oasis.

On the contrary, they are just harassing us.

Their land-use laws seem to be more important to them than real land use. It seems for them man is made for laws, and laws are not made for man.

Q: YOU COMMENTED THAT THERE'S A POSSIBILITY YOU WOULD PATCH THINGS UP WITH SHEELA. A FEW DAYS AGO THERE WAS AN INTERVIEW IN THE GERMAN MAGAZINE STERN IN WHICH SHE WAS QUOTED AS SAYING, "THE HELL WITH BHAGWAN." DO YOU STILL DO YOU STILL THINK THAT YOU COULD REPAIR YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH HER?

A: No, there is no need. I can go to hell. I don't see any harm in it. In fact, hell is full of the best people of the world. Only heaven is dull.

If she had said, "Heaven with Bhagwan," then I would have objected because whom do you expect to meet in heaven? You cannot meet Byron, Shelley, Vincent van Gogh, Picasso, Dostoevsky, Walt Whitman. All these people you will meet in hell. And I love good company! So she was perfectly right. There is no problem.

Q: ARE YOU TAKING MORE AUTHORITY YOURSELF IN...?

A: No. I have never had any authority, I don't have any and I will never have any. My love is enough.

Q: WELL, YOUR LOVE WASN'T ENOUGH IN SHEELA'S CASE TO PREVENT HER FROM TRYING TO POISON YOU.

A: It was enough in that case too. Just because I was silent and in isolation... And whatever she did, I still feel that she was not intentionally criminal. The politicians of Oregon forced her, and when you have to deal with politicians you have to learn their language, and you have to deal accordingly. So she started becoming political, cunning, lying. She was not in my contact; she was in contact with the politicians, with the legal experts, with the courts continuously. All these people corrupted her. And when they were doing everything illegally, she started doing illegal things herself.

There is a certain synchronicity. If you deal with criminals, sooner or later you will become a criminal.

Q: WHAT'S TO PREVENT HER SUCCESSORS FROM EVENTUALLY HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS, ASSUMING THAT ALL THESE LEGAL PROBLEMS...

AND CERTAINLY THERE ARE A LOT OF POLICE HERE TODAY, AND POLITICIANS MAKING STATEMENTS.

A: First, because I am available now. I was not available in those three and a half years. In my presence nothing can go wrong. And I have suggested to my people to chose a totally different kind of group.

For example, Sheela was uneducated -- just a waitress in a hotel, must have suffered from inferiority complex. Was raped at the age of sixteen, became pregnant. In India abortion was illegal at that time, so she had to suffer an illegal abortion. All that made her mind crippled, and in some way against humanity.

The man who raped her she used to trust just like her father; and since then she has never been able to forgive any man.

Now I have chosen a totally different kind of group -- well educated, coming from rich families, having no inferiority complex, very creative. Hasya with her husband created the best, one of the best films: The Godfather."

And all the people that I have chosen now are mostly American, for the simple reason to make a bridge with Americans. Sheela's whole group was non- American.

Q: DID YOU FEEL WHEN ALL THESE REVELATIONS CAME OUT A FEW WEEKS AGO THAT THERE WAS SOME LESSENING IN THE SUPPORT YOU WERE GETTING FROM THE SANNYASINS, THAT THEY FELT LET DOWN?

A: No, there is no question. There is no question. In fact I will be supported more, because every day messages are coming from sannyasin whom Sheela had driven out of the commune just because they were more competent, more intelligent, and she was afraid. She was continuously afraid that somebody who is more competent will take her place. So she drove them out. They all will be coming back: the vice chancellor of the university, the chancellor the university, many psychologists. All simply left because she was humiliating them.

Now, those people are highly educated. Somebody has Ph.D., somebody has double Ph.D.'s, somebody has a D.Litt. Those people cannot be humiliated by a waitress of a hotel who knows nothing.

I had to teach her everything, even what to say on the television, what to say in an interview. I had to teach her everything; still it never came right.

Q: SHE WAS CERTAINLY MUCH MORE... SHE COULD BE VERY HOSTILE ON TELEVISION, WHICH IS NOT YOUR STYLE AT ALL.

A: Yes, she was hostile. She misunderstood -- I told her to be assertive, but to be assertive does not mean to be hostile. You can be very loving and you can be still assertive.

So there is no possibility that the new group will do the same. Almost impossible.

And I am now available and will remain available till I am alive.

Q: DO YOU THINK THE GROUP CAN HOLD TOGETHER AFTER THAT?

A: I don't even think about it. It depends on each individual. If they want to be together, good. If they want to disperse, then they can have a good celebration and say good-bye.

Q: THERE'S SOME SPECULATION THAT MAYBE YOU'RE GOING TO GO SOME PLACE ELSE WHEN YOU CAN, BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE DRAW A CONNECTION BETWEEN WHAT'S HAPPENED HERE RECENTLY AND WHAT HAPPENED IN INDIA BEFORE YOU CAME HERE.

A: No, I am not going anywhere, particularly unless my green card is given to me. If America wants me to go out and visit other countries and other communes and leave them for few days to rest, they should issue the green card. And if they don't want that, then I am not going anywhere.

Q: CONCERNING YOUR DECISION TO TELL PEOPLE THEY COULD CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT TO WEAR RED: IS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY THAT CAME TODAY? HAD YOU BEEN THINKING ABOUT IT FOR A WHILE? DID IT COME TO YOU IN A SUDDEN FLASH?

A: No. About me you have to understand one thing: I don't think at all.

Everything is spontaneous. I was not even aware that this will come this morning. It came. I was surprised as you, as others were surprised.

Q: BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ON THE OUTSIDE MIGHT SEE THIS AS A RESPONSE, SOME IMAGE....

A: What other people think, I never bother about them at all, because there are four billion people on the earth. And I am a poor ordinary man. Thinking about four billion people, what they are thinking about me, will be simply too much of a torture. So I simply don't think at all; I go on doing whatsoever comes to me. I don't think about the consequence. When the consequence comes, then I will face it. And I keep tomorrow always open.

And I am not a very consistent man. Tomorrow I may change. So those who have purchased clothes other than that may be at a loss. Yes! I am not saying... yes. So tomorrow morning, who knows?