[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]
INTERVIEW WITH BUNTE, OFFENBURG, WEST GERMANY
QUESTION:* LET'S START WITH WHAT HAPPENED IN THE LAST FEW DAYS HERE. COULD YOU EVER IMAGINE THAT SOMETHING LIKE THIS THAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU AND TO THE COMMUNE HERE?
ANSWER:* I never think of the future, so I am always prepared for everything. I am never surprised, never disappointed either. Whatever happens, I take it for granted that it must do some good.
Anything looked rightly is always beneficial. Whatever happened here has helped my people immensely. Now it will never happen again.
They were innocent people. The whole life of the commune was only four years.
They trusted me absolutely, although I have never asked anybody to trust in me or have faith in me. Just the contrary, I have asked them never to have any belief, any faith. Doubt is my fundamental teaching.
Doubt is so clean. It has given us the whole science. Just in three hundred years doubt has given us so much and belief in ten thousand years have not given anything except wars, bloodshed, fanaticism, retarded people, divided humanity.
But it is a paradox of life that the more I tell to my people not to have faith, not to have belief, the more they love me, the more they trust me.
For three and half years I was silent. Sheela was my secretary. She was the only link between me and the commune. The commune simply trusted Sheela, that whatever she is saying she represents me. That's how the whole thing happened.
And I don't condemn Sheela, either. It is just a human weakness. Everybody carries will to power within him. Just a question of opportunity. If you get the opportunity, the will to power takes possession of you. And she had a good opportunity.
These people had tremendous trust in me. She was representing me. She used the opportunity to become almost a fascist leader.
She was nobody. She was only a hotel waitress. But in three and half years she became a great celebrity -- on the television, on the radio, in the newspapers.
Naturally the poor girl got a swollen head.
When I started speaking again, then the problem arose. Otherwise it would have never arisen. Because I started speaking to my people again, they could not believe me, because Sheela was saying something else for three and half years and I was saying just the opposite. She was asking them to surrender completely, to trust totally, and those who don't surrender she was throwing them out. And when I said to my people that, "You had completely forgotten me and my teaching," she immediately understood that now this is not her place.
On the one hand she is no more going to be the celebrity she has been. On the other hand, all these people are going to bring all the complaints that have accumulated in their minds for three and half years. She simply escaped.
And now so many things are coming, it seems* are most inconceivable. She has tried to poison people, to kill people. Just today somebody has sent me the message that one of my most important sannyasins, who was also the vice- chancellor of the meditational university here -- very well educated, had a M.A., Ph.D., well experienced psychiatrist, twelve years he was the head of an army psychiatric hospital -- suddenly he and his girlfriend disappeared. And Sheela told me that they wanted to go, so I allowed them to go.
I said, "This seems to be strange, because Prabodhi was there just the other day dancing and receiving me on the door -- the girlfriend of Siddha. Siddha was there in the meeting every day and I was seeing him flowering and rejoicing.
And I don't see the point they have any reason to leave. What reason they have given?"
She said, "No reason."
And just today I have heard that most probably both have been killed, because they were -- particularly Siddha was so much devoted to me that he won't listen to Sheela.
This is just a rumor right now, but I am going to inform the police and to find what happened to those two people. It is possible, because she has done the same thing to one of the Share-Home people.
When she managed that Share-Home people program, she had ordered a certain drug in such a great quantity that our pharmacist simply refused, because, "What is the point of such a great quantity? And how I am going to answer? What was the need?" So they simply said, "Don't be worried. We will find some other way."
And they must have found some other way. Now people have come to say that they were giving a certain drug to all the street people to keep them calm and quiet and under control.
One man by fault, accident, got too much a dose and he died. And they just threw him out of Rancho Rajneesh.
If they can do that....
They tried my own personal physician to kill by giving him slow doses of poison. They were against three persons very much because those three persons were very close to me and they were afraid that those three persons may be giving me information that they don't want me to know.
I was in isolation and silence. Nobody else was approaching me except Sheela and these three people: my physician, my dentist and my caretaker.
First we thought this is something strange, because nobody could conceive it. My caretaker one day got to Jesus House where Sheela used to live and took a cup of tea, and her heart went to such a high speed suddenly. She is not sick, she is perfectly healthy. There was no question of it. Even doctors were puzzled how it happened. And after much medication -- it took three hours for them to bring her heart to the normal condition.
But nobody even connected it with the tea.
But just after few days my personal physician... the same thing again happened.
He had a cup of coffee in Jesus House where Sheela lived, and he came back and he said he has been poisoned. Perhaps because he is a doctor, well qualified, he could suspect the feeling that some poisoning has happened. And he became sick. He had to be entered into the nursery home. There they tried again to inject.
One of Sheela's accomplices was Puja, who was really the expert. She was a trained nurse, almost as much qualified as any doctor. She again tried to inject poison, and then my physician became absolutely afraid to live there in the nursery even for a single moment. He was brought back home.
They tried third time in a public meeting everyday morning in the discourse.
They injected in the crowd poison and he immediately felt.... He took over his robe and showed people blood coming out and the place where the injection was given. And now he was absolutely certain that it is a certain injection that is not detectable, and it simply weakens you, and in a period of six to eight months it kills you. So nobody can be caught. It is not a sudden killer.
This time he refused to go to the commune's nursery home because that was again under Puja. So we had to send him to Bend. His wife, Hasya, was with him there. The doctors could not find any disease. They told the wife that, "We don't find any disease. All that we can say is some indetectable poison has been injected. But we can only say. There is no proof because it is indetectable."
They said the same has happened to Mike Sullivan, the attorney of Jefferson County, one year before -- exactly the same case.
And there is every possibility the same people were behind that case too, because our commune's land comes half in Wasco County and half in Jefferson County, and Jefferson has not been in any way helping us to develop the land or to make few houses there for farmers to live.
It is a big stretch of land: one hundred twenty-six square miles. We need few houses there at the other corner. Perhaps because Sullivan was not helping, was a hindrance, they may have tried.
But all these things have come within two days, and more and more information is pouring in.
These people got the information from some source that grand jury is going to convene within two, three days. The moment they got that news, immediately she took away the whole group, twenty people, and escaped out of the country.
There was no need for them to fear. If they have not done anything wrong, I don't see the point of escaping from the country.
Just today -- Hasya is the new president of the Foundation -- she moved in the president's room and she could not believe, that there was a door going underground, that they had few rooms underneath the room which nobody in the commune knew, and a tunnel which goes out. In any case if somebody attacks or takes the house in possession, people can escape from the tunnel. So they have been preparing really well, doing things mathematically.
And whatever they have left in the rubbish, we have found literature how to make bombs, materials out of which bombs are made, materials on poisons, in what doses poisons can kill and how they should be given.
We have also found that the fire that had happened in Wasco County in one of the offices was the work of this group. Because they had the papers against them and they wanted to burn all those papers, they burned the whole office.
Today one sannyasin phoned from Germany knowing that Sheela and his company has left. He was immensely happy. He was our best pilot, and nobody knew why he was sent to Germany into a commune where there is no aerodome, no airplane.
He was sent as a punishment because Sheela wanted him to take one airplane full of bombs, full of petrol, and crash the bomb with the Wasco County building, and before the crash happens he should jump out with a parachute to save his life. But destroy the building and have enough bombs and enough petrol so that fire burns the whole place.
He refused. He is a simple man. Because he refused, afraid that he may say this thing to anybody, they immediately packaged his luggage and sent him to Germany.
I informed him that,"You come immediately because your witness to the government will be of immense help."
The whole day the office is buzzing with phones from all over the world, how people have been thrown out of the commune, humiliated -- and particularly those people who were more devoted to me, have lived longer than Sheela with me, knew me more than Sheela. She did not want anybody here.
And she had arranged a clique of almost all the new people who had no idea of my ideology, so whatsoever she said they thought that she has brought the news from me.
We are informing the police -- we have informed the police, the state police, the federal police, and we have asked German police, Switzerland police, because they are hiding in Switzerland in a small village near Zurich.
And just today I received the message that they are spending fifty thousand dollars per day, so that means our people have to look into the books well because from where they have got the money? They have left the commune in fifty-five million dollars debt.
So it was really turned out to be a criminal gang. But every man deep in the unconscious has the possibility. Just one needs opportunity. They got the opportunity.
Now it will not happen for the one reason that I am going to speak directly to my people. Secondly I am making every arrangement to decentralize power. Thirdly I am making arrangements to change power positions more often so nobody takes their position for granted, as if it is their inheritance. And I am telling my people to be alert and aware because my teaching is for freedom, not for fascism.
I value democracy not dictatorship. To me, individual and respect for his individuality are highest values. And no individual should be humiliated.
So now I will have to teach them that, "You have to be aware of your own power elite, too. And anything you see, immediately inform me."
This was a ugly nightmare but they could not do any harm to the commune.
They tried. Money does not matter; if they have taken some money, that is not much of a thing to be bothered with. But otherwise they have not....
And all the peoples that have left are asking to come back, and I am calling them that they can come back.
And there has been such a rejoicing. People have been dancing for hours in the street when they heard that Sheela and her group has left -- as if they are freed from a concentration camp.
So in a way it is good that these people are gone. They were creating a rift between the commune and Oregon, between the commune and the American government. Now that barrier has disappeared and we can create bridges of friendship, because to me America is the only hope for humanity.
If America does not succeed, then the whole humanity is going to be under communist regimes, and humanity is going to be reduced into robots. They have done that in Soviet Union and they will do it more forcibly everywhere else.
So America is not only just a country. It is now more than that. It is a hope for freedom and hope for democracy and hope for individuality, justice.
My respect for American constitution is immense, so much that I feel that American politicians are all prostituting it. The constitution is something immensely valuable, but the third-class politicians cannot keep up with the constitution, that's the difficulty.
I can understand. The constitution has such high goals and ideals and the politicians have no goals and no ideals except a lust for power, so the gap is big.
They are doing things which are unconstitutional, illegal.
So in every way I would like to be part of this country, but I will also fight any illegality that is being done to the commune against the constitution. We are fighting and we are winning, and we will fight up to the supreme court, and supreme court is still a ray of light.
And we see no reason that we cannot win. We are to win, because whatever they have done to the commune is absolutely unconstitutional.
They had recognized the commune as a city for two years. Their judges, their county, their state and the federal government all were helping the commune for two years as a city. And then suddenly -- perhaps some Christian pressure -- and they declared the city illegal. This is the only city in the whole world which is illegal. There are cities and there are no cities, but illegal cities don't exist.
And the greatest beauty of it all is that this is the only place where in four years nobody has been raped, nobody has been robbed. And still they go on calling it illegal.
And it took the attorney general of Oregon -- he must be a mighty dull head -- two years to discover that the city is illegal. You should have done every exploration before you accepted the city and its incorporation. If it is illegal, then you are the criminal. Why you incorporated it? You did not investigate properly or you don't understand the law. It took two years for you.
And now also they are trying and fighting for one thing: we want the case to be decided in a federal court and they want the case to be decided in a state court.
Now, it is a very simple thing, needs no legal knowledge, that if state itself is involved in the case, state courts cannot be expected to be fair. And why they are afraid of federal courts? Do they think their state courts are more fair than the federal courts?
Now they are fighting for that, that the case should be decided in the state courts.
We will not let them decide in a state court, because state court is under their pressures. We want federal court to decide. We don't want any favor from anybody. We simply want whatever is legal should be given to us.
Q:* I WILL COME BACK TO WHAT HAPPENED (INAUDIBLE) BEFORE THAT YOU ARE SURE SOMETHING LIKE THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN ANY MORE.
DOES IT MEAN THAT YOU TAKE OVER THE CONTROL AGAIN?
A:* No, I don't have any control. I had never. My love is my control. I don't have any position. Never I had before, and I don't need. You need position only when you don't have love enough. I love these people, I trust these people, they love me and they trust me. I have enough. What any position can give to me?
So I don't have any position legally. But I am one of them and my heart and their hearts beat together. We have a certain synchronicity.
So I am not going to take control. When I said, I said simply that I will be continuing to speak.
I was in isolation and not speaking. That gave the opportunity to some wrong people. Now I will be speaking and every day meeting my people, and that's enough.
For thirty years in India it had never happened for the simple reason because nobody will dare to do anything. When I am present, then nobody of my people is afraid of the president or the mayor or the secretary or anybody. Then they can say the truth openly.
And the president and the secretary will also never feel that there is an opportunity to take advantage of.
So just my presence and my availability is enough. It won't happen. It can't happen.
Q:* FROM THOSE PEOPLE THEY WENT TO EUROPE, EVERYBODY CAN COME BACK? ALSO SHEELA?
A:* Yes, everybody can come back. I love... they are my people. But I will have to make it clear to them that, "I love you as your person, as an individual. But I don't love your wrong actions. For your wrong actions you will have to face the courts. And for your wrong actions we are not going to help you. As far as you are concerned, our love remains the same."
I make a clear distinction between the action and the person. Action is a small thing.
For example, for thirty years you were a perfectly nice person and one day you murder. Nobody could have conceived. And after that day you may not murder ever. But our legal systems are blind. Because you have murdered, they will murder you.
This is a strange, primitive law.
If murder is wrong, then punishment to murder the person is also wrong -- more wrong. Just because it is being done in the name of society, civilization, culture, law, court, does not make it right.
To me, the murderer as a individual is as respectable as the magistrate. His action of murder is wrong, which is a small thing considered to the personality of the being, his whole life.
I would like every wrong person, illegal person, criminal person, to be sent not to imprisonment but respectfully, with dignity, to a psychiatrist camp, to a hospital where he can be treated, because murder is basically something psychological.
Rape is something psychological. Power, lust, is something psychological.
Perhaps the person is not responsible at all. It is just some instinct that takes possession of him and he does something. And it is wrong to behave in the same way. Eye for eye -- that is not civilization. And he can be treated. And you don't have any right to destroy a person's whole future because of a single act in the past.
The past is over, the future is open. Why you should destroy his future? You should help that the same thing does not happen in the future, so whatever steps are needed should be taken: medically, physiologically, psychologically -- everything should be done to get this person off this instinct to murder or rape or do... to do something wrong.
I will call that a cultured society.
So I will to see*. Even they come back, whatever they have done is small. Their humanity and their being is far more precious.
But I will not protect them against law. I would like them just as we are lovingly receiving them, they should go and surrender to the court and tell everything, whatever they have done, and ask the court that whatever is needed to be done to them, they are willing to accept.
Q:* DID YOU SEND SOMEBODY AFTER THEM?
A:* No, not yet.
Q:* YOU WILL?
A:* No. I will just wait, because one person out of them has already come back, another has phoned. I will wait. Soon they will be feeling that they have done something wrong and it is not right to be there. They will all come back.
Those who will not come back must be the three persons -- Sheela, Puja, Shanti B -- who were really involved into killing people. They will be brought by the Interpol or Swiss police or German police.
And I don't need to send anybody anywhere because I have my sannyasins everywhere. They cannot go to any corner of the world and hide. I have my communes in Germany, in Switzerland, in Holland, in England, in Italy -- wherever they will go my people will find them.
And I am going to inform all the communes.
And they are committing the same stupid crimes there. Just the phone came that Sheela has married one Swiss sannyasin. Now this is bigamy. She is married to an American here. And she has married there just to remain in Switzerland. And her husband, who was a trustee of the commune -- we have a big commune in Zurich and one of the best in Europe -- he was a trustee there. Another trustee was Pragyan, who is missing. Again the same suspicion, because if they could do such things here they may have done the same thing with Pragyan.
Pragyan is missing and Dipo has withdrawn all the money from the bank which was commune's money and he is not entitled to take it for his personal use. So they phoned and asked, "Should we give him to the police?"
I said, "Immediately, because once Dipo is behind the bars Sheela and the whole group will be without support."
So we will catch them. They cannot escape anywhere.
Q:* IN EUROPE THERE ARE SOME RUMORS IN LAST FEW DAYS THAT YOU WOULD LEAVE OREGON, PROBABLY TO AUSTRALIA. IS IT TRUE?
A:* I was just joking with an Australian journalist. Nothing. No rumors.
Q:* YOU WILL STAY IN OREGON?
A:* I am going to stay here.
Q:* FOR HOW LONG?
A:* Till I get the green card. If they give me the green card I may go. If they don't give me, then alive I am not going anywhere.
Q:* DO YOU TRUST THESE NEW PEOPLE ON THE TOP OF THE COMMUNE?
A:* Perfectly. I even trusted those people, and I trust even them now. To err is human, it is nothing much important. And my trust is unconditional. It does not depend what you do and what you don't. I trust your being, your very existence.
I certainly trust the new people. Without my trust, without my love, now my commune is not going to choose anybody.
Q:* SO YOU DON'T FEEL HURT?
A:* No. Not at all. There is nothing to feel hurt. I just feel excited.