Chapter 25

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

A:* That's great! Now you can ask your questions!

Q:* FOR THE AUDIENCE, I THINK THE CARTOON SAYS, THE MAN IS SAYING TO HIS WIFE, "YES, IT'S TRUE. THERE'S NO BOTTOM TO MY BAG OF TRICKS."

WELL, IT'S AN AUSPICIOUS DAY, WHAT WITH OUR DISCOURSE THIS MORNING ABOUT POWER AND SHEELA. I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY ORGANIZATIONS, NONE OF THEM AS FASCINATING TO ME OR AS COMPLEX AND AS PERHAPS FULL OF HEART AND LOVE AS THIS RANCH. I'VE BEEN IN GROUP PRACTICE, THE SAME GROUP OF PEOPLE FOR TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS WHERE WE TRY TO DEAL WITH POWER AND EQUALITY AND CREATIVITY, WITH SOME SUCCESS -- WE'VE SURVIVED. I'VE BEEN IN A FAMILY, I'VE BEEN INVOLVED WITH GROWTH CENTERS -- ESALEN SOMEWHAT IN ITS EARLY YEARS AND OTHERS -- AND STILL RETAINED THAT PERHAPS NAIVE CONCEPT OF DEMOCRACY OF THIS DISTRIBUTION OF POWER, CHECKS AND BALANCES, INTERNAL CORRECTIVE PROCESSES, TO PREVENT POWER FROM BEING FOCUSSED, CAPTURED FOR TOO LONG BY ANY ONE PERSON OR GROUP OF PEOPLE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE RANCH AND THE CONSCIOUSNESS THAT WOULD IN THE FUTURE PERHAPS MORE RAPIDLY DEAL WITH NON- PRODUCTIVE POWER CONSOLIDATION, THAT WOULD MORE RAPIDLY CONFRONT THE OVERCONCENTRATION OF POWER OR THE MISUSE OF POWER, THE PROCESSES WITHIN THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES THAT WOULD CORRECT THAT BEFORE AN INDIVIDUAL LEFT THE RANCH OR BEFORE YOU HAD TO INTERVENE?

A:* The human mind is so old... its conditioning is of thousands of years. It takes a tremendous effort to detach yourself from the conditionings of the past. They are not only your past -- that is a very small fraction; beyond your past is the collective past of humanity, which is almost infinite. And in this whole past you have been programmed -- programmed in such a way that lust for power has become almost natural.

If you get the power, then you want more. And there is no end to more. And the more power you want, the more people are going to lose their freedom. Your power is their loss of freedom. If you become ultimately powerful, they will become just slaves. So the real struggle is between the instinct of power and the value of freedom.

It is possible to prevent it happening in a small commune like this. Simple methods can change it. What you are suggesting is a ultimate change -- change of their awareness: they become so conscious that no lust for power can raise its head in their psyche. That is a goal of all spiritual growth, but it will happen when it will happen. Meanwhile, we have to take temporary steps. For example, decentralization of power; it should not be in one hand, it should be in many hands. It should not be concentrated, but diluted.

There should be no hierarchy. Whatever one is doing -- he may be a doctor, a professor, a president of a corporation, a farmer, a gardener -- these are functions, they are not definitions of your individuality. The moment you come out of the classroom you are no more a professor. You are a professor only while you are professing. You are a teacher only while you are teaching. The moment the function ceases, you are a simple human being. The function is not you. What you do is not your being.

This is my approach... and it is working. Just because I was silent for three and half years, and I was not in contact with the day to day activities of the commune, that Sheela could get into a power trip. But that too has been of immense significance, for the whole commune to learn something -- that how people can go on becoming more and more attached to power and how power goes on corrupting them... and it is a vicious circle. Power corrupts you, then corruption needs more power, otherwise you will be exposed, more power needs more corruption....

Q:* WHAT PREVENTED THE SANNYASINS ON THEIR OWN FROM DEALING WITH THAT EARLIER?

A:* There were many problems. First, the sannyasins here have not gathered for any political reason. They have come to me to be just in my presence, in my silence, and to learn ways how to be silent and more conscious.

Q:* BUT MEANWHILE THEY ARE LIVING IN A POLITICAL WORLD THAT CAN HARM THEM AND SO THEY MUST BECOME POLITICAL AND....

A:* No. It is better to get harmed than to become political, because that is more harmful than any other harm can be. And somebody, somewhere in the world has to take the initiative, not to be political, available to be harmed, and not ready to harm anybody.

These people have not come here to harm anybody. They have just come to live silently, and seek, search, whatever is their reality. So because they were all focussed on this program, it was possible for Sheela and her group to go on doing things and nobody bothered about it. If it was a political group, then there would have been conflicts, there would have been elections and there would have been fights, and she would have been thrown long ago before. But because these people are not any way power oriented, and they were thinking that whatever Sheela is doing she is doing on my instructions. That's what she was telling them.

Certainly she was receiving few instructions from me, but it was at her discretion what instruction to use, what not to use, and it was in her hands to manage any instruction that I have not given.

Just today I have come to know that she was doing exactly what Nixon was doing: she has bugged houses and you will be surprised -- my house, my bedroom!

Q:* THERE WAS A LEADERSHIP VACUUM AND....

A:* Yes.

Q:*... SHE FILLED IT. AND THAT ALWAYS HAPPENS WHEN THERE'S A VACUUM: SOMEONE WILL FILL IT. IT'S SIMPLE.

A:* No, but it has not harmed anybody. She simply befooled herself. Nobody is harmed by her bugging or taping peoples' conversations, because these people and their conversations on telephone are either simple gossips or some loving words to a friend.... Taping them is simply stupid. They are not plotting any conspiracy. But people who are power oriented are paranoid; they are always afraid that somebody is going to take over their place.

Otherwise, bugging my room was absolutely stupid, because she was the only one who used to come there -- just for her work, if something was needed as advice. There was no need to bug it, but she must have been afraid: perhaps somebody else enters there without her knowing, informs me about what is going on.... Just paranoia! These people are not living happily -- they are simply trembling inside, continuously afraid and looking everywhere with suspicion.

And my people are meditating, doing work, enjoying, dancing, singing -- they don't have anything to bother about. That's why she could carry on for three and a half years.

Just now it became difficult for her, because I started speaking. My speaking created a trouble.

Q:* THE DAY WILL COME WHEN YOU WILL STOP SPEAKING AGAIN -- WILL YOUR SANNYASINS THEN HAVE MOVED SPIRITUALLY, POLITICALLY, WHATEVER WAY, TO WHERE THEY CAN HANDLE THAT KIND OF PROBLEM?

A:* I am not going to stop speaking until I am dead! And who knows? -- I may speak even after that!

Q:* BUT IN CASE YOU DON'T....

A:* Just old habit!

Q:* OR THEY MAY HEAR YOU SPEAKING EVEN AFTER DEATH....

A:* Yes!

Q:*... WHETHER YOU DO OR NOT.

A:* But I will prepare them... and they are preparing -- this has been a good experience for them, that this should not happen again, that they should not be political, but that they should be aware that they are not being politically cheated, that somebody does not become -- on their account -- and takes advantage. This will not happen now. I will prepare them for that too, that they should keep an eye.

Decentralization of power into many peoples hands will be one of the basic things. Second, the people should be taught that they do their meditations, they rejoice their life, they need not worry too much about, but they should keep an eye. It is their life and nobody should become so powerful that he starts interfering. Now this is against human freedom: to tape somebody's phone, to bug somebody's room -- this is inhuman and ugly. And that too, of people who love you, who are not against! There is no political party here.

Q:* WERE YOU... BUT PEOPLE DO THAT, WE KNOW THEY DO THAT. WERE YOU SURPRISED?

A:* No. I am not surprised. I am never surprised....

Q:* UH HUH.

A:* Because I know human mind so clearly, that it can do any stupid thing -- there is no need to surprise.

Q:* I GUESS MY HOPE IS THAT BY KNOWING THAT PEOPLE WILL DO ANY STUPID, EGO-ORIENTED, POWER TRIP OR PARANOID TRIP THAT THEN WE CAN SOMETIMES DESIGN STRATEGIES IN ADVANCE TO PREVENT THAT FROM HAPPENING.

A:* I will be doing it. It will be prevented -- it won't happen again.

Q:* DECENTRALIZATION OF POWER IS ONE WAY -- OTHERS WAYS OF?

A:* People have to... I am now going to constantly make them aware and alert. I am going to help them not to ignore what people who are in power are doing and I am putting in power people who have simply no ambition, who have been connected with me and I know them -- they have no ambition of any kind. In fact, unwillingly they are taking the post. And my third idea is that we will be rotating. There is no need for power to remain in one hand for a long period.

That the person starts taking it for granted -- that it is his.

So rotate power, change people -- and it is good: we are doing that rotation in other fields. The professors are doing gardening, some gardener who has been a professor is back in the university, some therapist is in the carpenter's workshop and some carpenter -- my own carpenter who has made this chair -- he is a Ph.D.:

he can any day go to the university and be the vice-chancellor.

So we are doing that in every field, just we were not touching the power elite for the simple reason that there were so many complications with government, with legal courts, so we wanted the people to deal who know, who have been dealing, who have been going to the court, but now we will take that risk. It is better to take the risk rather than give somebody an opportunity to become an egoist.

It is against his spiritual growth to give him the opportunity to become an egoist.

Q:* I ASSUME THAT THE ROTATION OF ROLE DOES NOT INCLUDE YOURSELF?

A:* Hmm? I am not in any position, so the rotation is impossible. I don't hold any position. I am not even a member of the commune. I am not a voter. I live outside the city. I am just an outsider and I have been an outsider everywhere -- in my own country I was an outsider, in my own family I was an outsider -- to be an outsider seems to be my fate.

Q:* WHO WILL MAKE THE APPOINTMENTS THOUGH, OF THE NEW LEADERS THAT ARE TO BE ROTATED?

A:* There are councils. I can just suggest to the councils my ideas, then it is up to them to function accordingly or they can decide on their own. I can simply give them my advice. I cannot dictate anybody.

Q:* AND YOU FEEL THAT THEY ARE NOW SUFFICIENTLY ENLIGHTENED OR SELF-EMPOWERED THAT THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN WISE DECISIONS?....

A:* They can... they can, certainly.

Q:* WITHOUT BEING TOO SWAYED BY YOUR RECOMMENDATIONS OR OPINIONS?

A:* No. They can, because they were the people who were not supportive* of Sheela and her fascist group. They were in the group....

Q:* BUT YESTERDAY THEY WERE NOT STRONG ENOUGH TO REMOVE SHEELA -- TOMORROW THEY WILL BE STRONG ENOUGH?

A:* No. There was no question of removal. They had no idea that Sheela can be removed. Now they know it, but they were ready. And when Sheela asked them that would they like to go with her, they simply refused. They were simply feeling nauseous and sick of her behavior. Those who were with her have left with her. It is good. It is a good cleaning process. And those who were against the whole process that she was doing, only have left behind.

So now these people are more reliable that they will not allow anybody to do anything in the same way. And I am telling them that now power should be a rotation thing. Whenever you feel somebody is getting too much interested in power, change immediately.

Q:* I HOPE IT WORKS.

A:* Yes, we can only hope -- what works, nobody knows.

Q:* SOMEONE, PERHAPS IT WAS EZRA POUND, ONCE DEFINED A SLAVE AS SOMEONE WHO WAITS FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO SET THEM FREE, AND THAT SOUNDS A LITTLE BIT LIKE THE SANNYASINS HAD TO WAIT FOR YOU TO GRANT THEM THE AUTHORITY, PERMISSION, TO EXERCISE MORE SELF-GOVERNING POWER.

A:* No. It is not permission, neither authority, just a little awareness which they were missing. And the moment I said, they immediately understood: they danced in the streets as if they have come out of a concentration camp. All that they needed was just a little awareness that that too is your work, to keep alert, that nobody becomes dictatorial, that your freedom is not interfered.

And Sheela seems to be really insane; in fact all power-oriented people are a little insane. A sane person would not like to enslave anybody.

Just today I have come to know that Sheela and her group tried even to poison my physician. They wanted to poison to other persons who were close to me, for the simple reason that nobody should be close to me, except Sheela. These three persons were in the way.

Q: THIS DID NOT SURPRISE YOU?

A:* No.

Q:* IT SURPRISES ME.

A:* No. It surprises you but it didn't surprise me, because it is simple arithmetic - - it can be understood: anybody who wants to be dictatorial, who wants me not to be approachable to anybody else, would think of this thing. My physician was able to approach me, to check me -- he could inform me about what is going on; my caretaker who brings food for me -- she may bring information; my dentist who sometimes works on my teeth may tell me something. So these three persons were only, who were in any way capable of informing me.

Q:* AND PART OF YOUR AWARENESS WAS THE THOUGHT, "HMM, PERHAPS SHEELA MIGHT WANT TO POISON THEM?"

A:* That never occurred to me. I was never thinking that....

Q:* THEN YOU WERE SURPRISED.

A:* No. I was not surprised. I was simply sad -- sad that a woman from whom we expect more loving heart, should think in terms of killing people. I was simply sad -- sad for Sheela, that she must be in a mess. The very idea is sickening. I am not angry at her, because I can understand these things can happen to power-oriented people.

Q:* WE COULD LOOK AT THIS EVENT IN TERMS OF WHAT SOME PEOPLE CALL SYSTEMS THEORY AND ASK IN WHAT WAY IS SHEELA A PRODUCT OF ALL OF US, HOW ARE WE ALL -- INCLUDING YOURSELF....

A:* That's true.

Q:*... RESPONSIBLE FOR SHEELA?

A:* In a way we are all responsible for everybody, not only for Sheela, but for Adolf Hitler, for Ronald Reagan, for Joseph Stalin. We are responsible for our whole humanity, because we are part of it and in some way or other we contribute to it.

Q:* AND MY SADNESS ALSO AND MY CONCERN IS THAT WE NEVER SEEM TO LEARN FAST ENOUGH TO ANTICIPATE AND HEAL THE PARANOIA OR POWER DRIVES THAT ARE EVERYWHERE AND SO WHEN SOMEONE AS YOURSELF TRIES TO COME INTO THE WORLD WITH LOVE OR CREATIVITY, THEN THROUGHOUT HISTORY IT BUMPS UP AGAINST....

A:* It is true and we not only are slow in learning, we are almost incapable of learning.

Q:* HISTORY SEEMS TO....

A:*... because we have not learned anything for these two thousand years. Our values and qualities of being human have not grown. We may have become more polished, more sophisticated, we may not crucify Jesus Christ, we may give him a good electric chair, but that makes no difference: we are the same people!

Q:* HOW WILL YOUR MESSAGE AND YOUR PRACTICAL STRATEGY IN THE WORLD BE MORE DURABLE, MORE WISE?

A:* No. I never think about the future. My concern is not future.

Q:* ONLY YOU HAVE SECURITY FORCES TO PRESERVE A LITTLE BIT LONGER THE FUTURE.

A:* They were not my security forces. The commune thinks about the future -- naturally -- because they are going to live here longer than me, their children will be here, living longer than me. I have no interest in future. My interest is totally in the present. My interest are my people and whatever I can share with them -- my experience -- and in whatever way I can help them to become more conscious. The whole thing is: how to deprogram them of the past and make them conscious in the present.

If my work is done in the present, it will take care of the future too, because future does not come from anywhere else; it comes out of the present. Your present grows into future, so if you are taking care of a rose bush now, without bothering about the flowers, if your care is enough the flowers will come in their time -- you need not bother about them. A person who thinks too much about flowers, perhaps may neglect the care of the plant.

My interest is my people, who are with me and whatever I can do for them, I am ready to do.

Q:* IN A RELATED WAY I HAVE... ALSO FEEL SOME CONCERN OR SADNESS ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE OF OREGON, AND WISH THAT THERE BE A PROCESS THERE ALSO THAT COULD BE HEALING OR DE-ESCALATING -- DO YOU SEE THAT HAPPENING?

A:* It is almost difficult, for the simple reason that I am not interested in converting people. Neither I am interested that the well should run after the thirsty, because that may make the thirsty even more afraid. A well coming towards you, I don't think you will stand in your place -- you will run away!

So my idea is the thirsty has to come to the well.

Q:* WELL, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT CONVERSION; WE'RE JUST TALKING ABOUT SOME LIVE AND LET LIVE.

A:* That is happening -- there is no problem in it: we are living, they are living -- there is no problem in it. And we are very happily living. They are in worries and unnecessary tension, frightened, hostile -- for no reason at all -- when we have been welcoming them that "You should come and see what we are doing here," nobody comes -- even the governor has not the guts to come here. Three times we have invited him.

He speaks against us without knowing anything about us. The attorney general declares our city illegal without ever thinking that we have changed a desert into a oasis, where five thousand people are living self-sufficiently. Perhaps desert was according to the land-use laws. To turn it into an oasis, create enough food for five thousand people -- enough vegetables, enough milk, and everything, make houses for five thousand peoples with all modern facilities -- the whole commune fully, centrally air-conditioned....

We have invited that, "You should come and see and if you see that this city is not doing right or your land is misused, you just tell us -- we are ready to change. We have no problem. If you say that this is not the right use of the land, you show us: otherwise we can show you what is right use of land. Because all your ranches around are poor and they have been working on their ranches for hundreds of years. And we have been working only for four years on this ranch and this is the worst ranch perhaps in the whole Oregon, because for fifty years nobody was ready to purchase it.

Q:* BUT YOU KNOW WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MORE THAN LAND-USE; WE'RE TALKING ABOUT ATTACHED, VULNERABLE EGOS. AND I'M HOPING THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME NEW STRATEGIES THAT YOU WOULD HAVE, PERHAPS WITH SHEELA GONE, THAT WOULD DEAL WITH THOSE IN SOME NEW WAYS.

A:* We will simply go on doing our thing... and just by our turning the desert, making our people happier, our laughter is going to reach. And perhaps one day they may come and to understand, and if they don't understand, that is their problem.

We are not worried and it is not a problem to us.

Q:* WELL, IT DOES OCCUPY A LOT OF TIME AND ENERGY AND MONEY....

A:* No.

Q:*... FIGHTING THESE BATTLES.

A:* No problem, because four hundred sannyasins we have who are law experts, the biggest law firm in the world.

Q:* WOULDN'T THEY RATHER BE....

A:* So they....

Q:*... WOULDN'T THEY RATHER BE LAUGHING THAN DOING LAW THOUGH?

A:* They are enjoying, they are enjoying and we are going to fight and we are winning the cases, and finally we are to prove this, that we are strangers here, but we love American constitution as something immensely valuable for humanity. And we are fighting for the constitution against the Americans -- this is such an excitement project....

Q:* I SEE.

A:*... that we are going to do it.

Q:* THAT APPEALS TO ME, THAT STRATEGY APPEALS TO ME MORE THAN THE NAME-CALLING.

A:* Name-calling does not mean anything.

Q:* WELL, BUT IT STIRS UP NEEDLESS OPPOSITION SOMETIMES.

A:* That is helpful. I know my business! If you don't disturb them, you are ignored. They understand certain language -- that language has to be used against them.

Q:* AND AGAIN YOU WERE NOT SURPRISED AT HOW MUCH OPPOSITION AND PARANOIA YOU RAN INTO IN OREGON?

A:* We are not surprised for anything. It is just proves that Oregon must be the most stupid state in America. A small community of five thousand people and the whole state of Oregon should be afraid of us.... What we can do?

Q:* BUT YOU KNOW WHAT YOU CAN DO. YOU CAN SHAKE THEIR WORLD APART.

A:* That we are going to do! That we are going to do. And if they want that we should not do that, then better they come to their senses. And rather being hostile, be just friendly. We are friendly, we have no hostility against them.

Q:* NO INTENTIONAL HOSTILITY, BUT YOU CONSTITUTE A THREAT TO THEIR ATTACHED EGOS.

A:* That we will continue to do. Unless they start seeing the fact that they have to come here and understand us, we are going to hurt their egos more and more and we are going to drag them up to the supreme court and we are going to expose them throughout the world. I am using the whole modern media....

I was silent so they were not in much trouble -- they will be now. For one month continuously I have been giving every day interviews from all over the world -- newspapers, magazines, radios, televisions -- and this program is going to continue till we have exhausted every media, small or big around the world. This small community certainly can create trouble for them.

Q:* IN ADDITION TO THE CREATIVE AND EFFECTIVE USE OF THE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND OF THE MEDIA, I GUESS I'M WANTING TO HEAR MORE ABOUT -- NOT WEAKNESS OR COMPROMISE -- BUT MORE ABOUT SOME COMPASSION AND LOVE FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE HAVING TROUBLE ADJUSTING TO THE CHANGE.

A:* We have immense compassion for them.

Q:* DO THEY KNOW THAT? DO THEY FEEL THAT?

A:* That is up to them. I can love you, you may not feel it. That does not mean that I don't love you.

Q:* BUT THEN THERE ARE SO MANY....

A:* There is no necessity law that one person loves another, the other immediately feels it -- it is not that way.

We have every compassion for them. We are ready to do anything for Oregon.

And whatever we are doing is doing for Oregon.... We don't have any hostility at all, no hate against anybody. But the people who are in power in Oregon, if they think that just by being power they can misuse laws, take advantage of their power, go against the constitution -- we are not going to tolerate it.

We love them, still we will love them, but we will fight them.

Q:* WHAT ARE SOME, PERHAPS... THERE'S SO MANY WAYS OF LOVING; ARE THERE PERHAPS SOME NEW FORMS OF LOVE THAT THE COMMUNITY MIGHT EXTEND OUTWARD?

A:* What do you want: I should go and hug the governor? He will die, then and there, then don't say that, "You are responsible. You killed the man."

Q:* WELL... THAT MIGHT BE TO MUCH: PERHAPS ANOTHER WAY!

A:* Hm mm mm. It is not too much. They are such cowards that we have been sending them continuous invitations that, "Be our guest and before you do anything -- and we are not saying that don't do anything -- before you do anything, just see and be acquainted with us and what we are doing and then you go to the court and whatever you want to do, you do." None of them has been able to come here.

And they are not only cowards -- they are very third-grade politicians. They had a private secret meeting in which all the agencies of the state were present. And the meeting was concerning us, so we asked that, "At least one person -- the mayor of Rajneeshpuram -- can be there, just so that no misinformation is given."

They did not allow anybody from us. They are discussing us: they don't allow a single person from here, they did not allow even the press.

The governor told to the press that you stay outside; after the meeting I will give you what has happened in the meeting. And he gave the press conference and you will be surprised: everything that he said was a lie. It was not discussed in the meeting -- not a single word of it. And what was discussed in the meeting, not a single word of it was told to the press.

Q:* HOW DID YOU LEARN THAT?

A:* Because one journalist somehow managed to get the secret file. And it was shown on the television. And then we came to know, we contacted the journalist, got a copy of it. In the meeting they discussed that we should keep the army alert that any moment they can be ordered to reach Rajneeshpuram. At the most, three hours will be given. So within three hours they have to reach Rajneeshpuram -- now this is the result of our invitations to them and this is your governor, your statesmen, politicians. To the press they lied....

And putting army on alert, for five thousand people who are not doing any harm to anybody... what do you want we should do to show our love to them? We have been inviting them. If they cannot come, they can invite me -- I am ready -- but they are just chickens. You can make at the most good soup out of them!

Q:* WELL.... CALLING THEM CHICKENS OR STUPID OR THIRD-RATE POLITICIANS -- WHICH THEY MAY BE -- I'M NOT SURE THAT HELPS...

MAYBE NOTHING HELPS.

A:* Mm? We don't care! We are so happy with ourselves, we don't care at all. We are so utterly contented that it does not matter -- few cases here and there, we can fight. And we are to win, because the constitution is in our favor and the law is in our favor. So they will be simply proving themselves* utter fools.

Just few days before it happened we had the annual festival -- fifteen thousand people were here from all over the world. The tents we had made were special tents. We made them ourselves and we had made them such that they can be used in winter, so they were not ordinary tents, but they were still tents. And we have applied for patent for the tents, that we have invented a tent which can be used in a snow, which can be used in winter without any trouble, without any problem. The attorney general immediately imposed a fine. How much fine he imposed?

REPLY:* One point four million.

A:* One point four million. We asked them to, "Come and see before you impose a fine. They are not permanent structures, so they don't need any permission.

And you have not seen them, none of your officers have seen them. You have taken it for granted that they are permanent structures, just because they're winterized."

But nobody came. And I told my people, "You just take one tent into the courtroom: open the bag, fit the tent -- it takes ten minutes -- and then unfold it -- it takes ten minutes -- and ask the judge, "Can a permanent building be made in ten minutes and unfolded in ten minutes again? So this is the tent."

The judge simply dismissed the case and said, "This is absurd -- in ten minutes nobody can make a permanent."

Now, if this attorney general has any dignity, he should have jumped into the ocean! He must be a buffoon: one point four million you punish somebody, without any grounds, without even looking at on what you are punishing them.... And their all cases are such, and we are going to prove on each case that they are being behaving in a stupid way.

It is better for them that they should come -- we have no antagonism against them. We have no political aspirations, we have no political parties, we are not concerned at all; just leave us alone.... But they cannot leave us alone!

Q:* WELL, BUT YOU, YOU WON YOUR POINT THERE: WHY CALL THE MAN A BUFFOON? WHY NOT LET HIM BE? YOU GOT WHAT YOU WANTED -- WHY RUB IT IN?

A:* I have got and we will be getting more. And they are going to be loser on every point.

Q:* YOU ALSO, OF COURSE, ARE DEPENDING ON THEIR BEING FIRST- RATE POLITICIANS AND JUDGES WHO WILL FOLLOW THE CONSTITUTION, AND FORTUNATELY THERE ARE SUCH PEOPLE. THEN THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE HALF WAY BETWEEN BUFFOON AND FIRST-RATE.

A:* Yes.

Q:* MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE ARE MY FRIENDS OR LIKE MYSELF....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... EASILY IMPRESSED ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, NOT KNOWING WHAT TO MAKE OF YOU, OF THE RANCH.

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... HEARING GOSSIP, READING THINGS, GETTING LITTLE PIECES OF INFORMATION. I LIKE THAT YOU'RE DOING MORE INTERVIEWS, MORE MEDIA -- I HOPE THAT THAT GETS MORE INFORMATION OUT.

A:* We will make more information available and we know that there are judges who will be pressurized by the politicians, there are judges who are just fifty-fifty -- cannot be relied upon -- but there are few judges who are hundred percent fair.

So we will drag the cases till we find the person who is hundred percent fair.

And once we have got the hundred percent fair judge, then there is no problem.

Right now only my legal people are fighting. If it is needed, I am going to stand before the supreme court myself.

Q:* THAT WOULD BE A MARVELOUS DRAMA TO WITNESS!

A:* Yes. It will be! (laughter) It will be. And my whole circus will be also!

Q:* THIS MORNING YOU SAID THAT YOU'RE AN ORDINARY MAN AND I KNOW YOU MEANT IN TERMS OF YOUR WAY OF BEING AND LIVING.

AND YET OF COURSE, YOU DON'T ALWAYS LOOK AND ACT LIKE AN ORDINARY MAN -- WHY IS THAT? WHY...?

A:* Because everybody is extraordinary here in this world, so I have to look a little separate from the extraordinary people, because I am being just an ordinary person. So I have to use a golden diamond watch, a Rolls Royce limousine -- just to be... out of the crowd of the extraordinary people!

Q:* I PROMISED MYSELF THAT I WAS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T ASK YOU ABOUT THE ROLLS ROYCES. IT TAKES A GREAT EFFORT OF THE WILL TO....

BUT I DID ASK MY MECHANIC BEFORE COMING; I SAID, "WELL, WHAT, WHAT SHOULD I TALK ABOUT? WHAT SHOULD I ASK THIS MAN?" AND HE SAID, "WELL, IF HE'S GOING TO BUY EXPENSIVE CARS, WHY DOES HE BUY ROLLS ROYCES? IT'S NOT A CAR: IT'S STODGY FURNITURE." SO HE WANT YOU TO BUY MASERATIS -- I GIVE YOU THAT.

A:* No. That is....

Q:* I PROMISED HIM I WOULD TRY, SO....

A:* They don't come close to Rolls Royces. No car comes close to it.

Q:* FOR YOU IT'S NOT STODGY FURNITURE?

A:* I love it!

Q:* I WAS TALKING WITH RAJEN THIS AFTERNOON AND WONDERING, SPECULATING -- I WORK AS A PSYCHOTHERAPIST PERSONALLY....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... AND I'VE BEEN INFLUENCED BY CARL RODGERS AND ROLLO MAY AND ALSO BY MAURICE FREEDMAN WHO IS A SORT OF INTERPRETER OF MARTIN BUBER AND WHO PUBLISHED AN ARTICLE IN MY JOURNAL RECENTLY CALLED HEALING THROUGH MEETING. I WAS WONDERING HOW, HOW WOULD PSYCHOTHERAPY LOOK IN THIS CONTEXT AT THE RANCH IN YOUR BUDDHAFIELD? WHAT WOULD I SEE -- IF I DIDN'T KNOW THAT THIS WAS A RAJNEESH THERAPIST -- WHAT WOULD I SEE DIFFERENT? AND THIS IS EVEN RESEARCHABLE -- THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO DO RESEARCH ABOUT PSYCHOTHERAPY TRANSCRIPTS....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... CODING THEM AND SO FORTH -- WHAT COULD WE FIND THAT WE COULD POINT TO THAT WOULD SAY, "AHAH! THERE'S SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE, DIFFERENT EVEN FROM RELATIVELY ENLIGHTENED EXISTENTIAL PSYCHOTHERAPY." WHAT WOULD WE SEE DIFFERENT?

A:* It is different. And it can enrich psychotherapy tremendously to understand the difference. All psychoanalyst schools are very superficial. Psychoanalysis -- the very word -- does not go beyond mind. And man's real being is beyond mind.

Q:* WELL, THE TRANSPERSONAL PSYCHOTHERAPISTS CERTAINLY WOULD AGREE IN PRINCIPLE TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING AND MANY OF US HAVE LONG AGO PUT PSYCHOANALYSIS BEHIND US.

A:* Even the transpersonal psychoanalysts have no idea of what meditation is. It is not transpersonal. It is transcendental. It is a state of no-mind. And psychoanalysis goes on and on, on the circumference -- moving, analyzing -- and it never reaches to the center.

In the East, man has been working on the mind for at least five thousand years.

In the West psychoanalysis is not even one hundred years old. It is just childish.

Patanjali is five thousand years old, but he does not bother about psychoanalysis.

He simply says that there is no need to be bothered about it; you simply become aware of the content of your mind: the thoughts, the dreams or whatever is passing through. And just remain a witness, without any judgement that this is good, this is bad. You have nothing to do with it; it is just a traffic that is moving and you are standing by the side of the road, just watching without any judgement.

Slowly the traffic becomes thinner and a moment comes, the traffic simply disappears. When the traffic completely disappears, a new experience of no- mind, a new experience of simple awareness -- awareness aware of itself, because there is nothing else to be aware of.

Once this awareness -- you can call it enlightenment, you can call it total consciousness -- once this is realized, you are beyond all mental problems, because you are beyond mind. Now the mind cannot affect you at all.

Psychoanalysis continuously tries to analyze the content of the mind, to find out the symbols, the meaning, and somehow....

Q:* BUT AS I SAID, MANY THERAPISTS NOWADAYS HAVE PUT THAT ASPECT OF PSYCHOANALYSIS BEHIND THEM AND AT LEAST IN PRINCIPLE, PERHAPS NOT ALWAYS WITH THE ABILITY, BUT AT LEAST IN PRINCIPLE, ATTEMPT TO WORK WITH CLIENTS IN THE WAY THAT YOU'RE DESCRIBING. AND I PROPOSE IT TO YOU REALLY AS A RESEARCH PROJECT, TO STUDY THE PROCESS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY AS IT OCCURS HERE, AND TO SEE HOW IS IT DIFFERENT AND DISTINGUISHABLE PERHAPS, FROM... CERTAINLY FROM PSYCHOANALYSIS, BUT ALSO FROM PSYCHOTHERAPY AS DONE BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE DONE EXTENSIVE ZEN MEDITATION OR WHATEVER ELSE.

A:* Just one thing: the people who are doing some transpersonal psychoanalysis, and you think they have something at least intellectually about meditation.... The only criterion is: do these people themselves have gone beyond problems, do they have worries, do they have tensions, do they have sadnesses, do they feel things that everybody feels and goes through? -- the boredom, despair, meaninglessness, anguish.

If they don't feel at all and don't show any indication of it, and they don't have any desire to know God... because that desire is just a projection of a child for a father figure. If they don't desire for any paradise -- because paradise is only desired by beggars -- if one is content and fulfilled, he is in paradise. So it is not a question of intellectual understanding. You have to watch these people and you have to watch their patients. Years in psychoanalysis and where they arrive?

There is not a single person in the whole world who can be said to be completely psychoanalyzed -- strange profession. And there are people who have been analyzed for twelve years by many analysts, and they just go on and on, just moving round and round, reaching nowhere.

The only criterion is: the person whose quest is fulfilled, who is not in any inquiry any more, who has no question about existence, about himself, about anything, who has found himself, has found the ultimate answer for everything - - and that will show in his every act, in his every gesture. It is not a question of intellectual conceivability, comprehension, presentation; you will have to look at the person and at his existential status.

If his wife falls in love with someone, whether he feels jealousy or not. If his wife is happy with someone, the man who is enlightened will be immensely happy, because he always wanted his wife to be happy. If she is happy with someone else, that does not matter. What matters is she is happy.

Q:* I'M INVOLVED SOME IN THE TRAINING OF PSYCHOTHERAPISTS ALSO AND IT WOULD BE OF IMMENSE VALUE IF YOU COULD PRODUCE HERE SOME VIDEO TAPES OF THERAPISTS WORKING WITH PEOPLE IN THIS WAY SO THAT I AND OTHER TEACHERS OF PSYCHOTHERAPY COULD SHOW TO STUDENTS AND TO SAY, "SEE, HERE IS SOMETHING THAT'S DIFFERENT -- LOOK AT IT."

A:* Yes. That can be done very easily. There is no problem in it. Anything that you feel will be useful to anybody, anywhere, you just suggest to my university people and they can produce it.

Q:* AND ALSO I DON'T DO RESEARCH MYSELF, BECAUSE IT'S RATHER DIFFICULT, BUT IF... AS YOUR UNIVERSITY PROGRESSES, IF THERE WERE PEOPLE AND MONEY AND TIME AND ENERGY TO DO SOME RESEARCH, ATTEMPTING TO DESCRIBE THIS WORK, IT WOULD BE GOOD AS PART OF YOUR PUBLIC RELATIONS TO REACH OUT TO THE COMMUNITY OF PSYCHOLOGISTS JUST TO SAY, "HERE, WE ARE SERIOUS. WE DO THIS WORK. WE SHOW IT ON VIDEO TAPES."

A:* That's perfectly right. Hm mm.

Q:* "WE PUBLISH ARTICLES ABOUT IT -- COME AND WATCH."

A:* That can be done. That can be done very easily -- there is no difficulty.

Q:* BACK FOR A MOMENT TO THE ISSUE OF BUILDING THE COMMUNITY IN WAYS THAT POWER CAN BE SHARED AND DECENTRALIZED.

ANOTHER METHOD THAT I AM FOND OF -- I WONDER IF IT'S BEING DONE -- IS TO HAVE NOT JUST INFORMAL DISCUSSIONS AMONGST THE PEOPLE, BUT EVEN SOME FORMALIZED PROCESSES FOR REVIEWING DECISION-MAKING, TASK FULFILLMENT, POWER USAGE AND MISUSAGE, SOME WAY OF SELF-REVIEW. I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN MANY SUCH GROUPS MYSELF. THE GROUP PRACTICE THAT I'M IN, WE MEET FOR EIGHT HOURS ONCE A MONTH AND FOR ONE HOUR EVERY WEEK TO KIND OF LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING AMONG US.

A:* Yes. That can be easily done. That's perfectly good and helpful.

Q:* AGAIN, IT DISTRIBUTES THE POWER AND IT BUILDS A SKILL INTO PEOPLE....

A:* Hm mm.

Q:*... TO LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN TERMS OF AWARENESS REALLY.

A:* It can be... it can be of immense help. Thank you for the suggestion!

Q:* IN ABOUT TWO WEEKS I'LL BE MAKING MY THIRD TRIP TO THE SOVIET UNION TO TALK WITH PSYCHOLOGISTS AND OTHERS THERE AND JUST AS YOU STRUGGLE WITH THE CITIZENS OF OREGON, SOME OF US ARE STRUGGLING WITH THE CITIZENS OF THE SOVIET UNION. AND BY SOME IRONY OR FATE, YOU AND I AND MIKHAIL GORBACHEV ARE ABOUT THE SAME AGE.

A:* Hm mm.

Q:* AND WE ARE LIVING IN THIS NUCLEAR-MENACED WORLD TOGETHER, AND I KEEP THINKING, "WHAT CAN I DO THERE? HOW CAN I MAKE SOME DIFFERENCE? WHAT CAN I SAY? IF I WERE A SANNYASIN, PERHAPS, WOULD I BE BETTER EQUIPPED TO GO THERE AND TO TALK?

A:* Certainly! And it is never too late!

Q:* I TOLD MY FRIENDS IF I WASN'T BACK IN A WEEK, TO SEND HELP.

A:* When you are going?

Q:* I WAS A LITTLE WORRIED THEN.

A:* When you are going to the Soviet Union?

Q:* OCTOBER THIRD.

A:* Because I have my underground sannyasins there....

Q:* I READ AN ARTICLE ABOUT SOME OF THEM IN THE SOVIET PRESS THAT....

A:* Yes. They are writing against me. They are persecuting my people. They have banned the books, they have taken away my books from people. And they have been harassing -- KGB has been calling and continuously interrogating... but it doesn't matter: my people are VERY much excited and interested. I can inform them at least to meet you.

Q:* YOU MUST HAVE BEEN AMUSED TO HEAR YOURSELF ACCUSED OF WORKING FOR THE CIA....

A:* Yes. That's in... in Russia that is known that I am working for CIA; in America I am working for KGB. Perhaps....

Q:* YOU'RE THE MOST CONSPICUOUS DOUBLE AGENT THAT (INAUDIBLE.) A:* Perhaps I am working for both or both are working for me! But it is interesting that I don't think any man is in such a position who will be condemned by America, by Russia, who will be condemned by Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Jainism. I don't think there is anyone who will be condemned by everybody. But to me....

Q:* AND BY THE MASERATI DEALERS OF AMERICA.

A:* Yes. To me it means that whatever I am doing and whatever I am saying, must have something of immense value, otherwise so many people simultaneously cannot be against me. That gives me enough courage, encouragement.

Q:* I SENSE THAT YOU DO DERIVE ENERGY AND EXCITEMENT FROM....

A:* Yes. I....

Q:*... FROM THE CONTROVERSY.

A:*... certainly derive energy.

Q:* WHILE YOU'RE A COURAGEOUS MAN, I BECOME WORRIED WHEN I SEE SO MUCH HOSTILITY -- THE GUNS....

A:* No. It will go. It is just natural, human nature. It will go. It cannot stay long, because in fact there is no base for it. If there was any base for it, I would have been concerned, but there is no base. From our side we don't have any hostility.

Our hands are always stretched and ready to meet with their hands. So it will take just a little time -- it will go, it is not to be worried about.

But when you are in Soviet Union, talking with Soviet psychoanalysts, just mention me. And if they have not read my books, tell them that your education about psychoanalysis will remain incomplete. And if they ever come out of Soviet Russia, then they should come to this red commune. Soviet Russia has only a red flag; we are all red people here. They should come here.

Q:* I WILL EXTEND THAT INVITATION AND I KNOW A FEW SOVIETS WHO HAVE A PARTICULAR INTEREST IN THE KIND OF EXPERIMENT THAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHO....

A:* Just give them the invitation on my behalf... and here in America, anybody who wants to come, just on my behalf give him.... And my people are very hospitalizing. He will not be (laughter about the use of the word). He will not be disappointed: they will hospitalize him!

Q:* I HOPE YOU'LL ALLOW ME TO TRANSLATE THAT INTO HOSPITABLE WHEN I....

A:* No! This way it is better. We have a hospital for the guests.

Q:* WELL, OF COURSE WHEN I RETURN AND I TELL PEOPLE OF THE HOSPITALITY AND WARMTH THAT I FELT HERE AND THAT THE PEOPLE DID SEEM CONSCIOUS AND ALIVE AND FREE AND AUTONOMOUS, THEN SOME OF MY FRIENDS -- THE ETERNAL SKEPTICS -- WILL SAY, "OH, WELL, TOM IS ALWAYS KIND OF GULLIBLE, EAGER TO PLEASE, BELIEVES IN THINGS. THEY MUST HAVE SOLD HIM TOO."

A:* Hm mm.

Q:* WHAT SHALL I SAY TO THEM THEN?

A:* Just tell them that is true. I am almost a second-hand car salesman -- you just tell them. I can sell any kind of car!

Q:* I WOULD... IF I WERE REALLY SHREWDER AND TOUGHER, WHAT TOUGH QUESTION WOULD I ASK YOU NOW?

A:* You can ask any.

Q:* NO. I'M ASKING YOU FOR HELP HERE!

A:* You just try.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE UNRESOLVED PROBLEMS IN RUNNING THE RANCH, IN ENLIGHTENING AND LIBERATING THE SANNYASINS -- WHAT, WHAT'S NEXT? HOW MUST THE WORK PROCEED NEXT? WHAT NEW FORM DO YOU ENVISION? -- JUST DECENTRALIZATION OF POWER, CERTAINLY IS ONE.

A:* Just I never think of tomorrow. Just after talking to you, I go to sleep and forget everything, and if tomorrow comes, then I will have it, but it will be today again. So I have managed only for today. Tomorrow has no place in my life, in my thinking, in my visions. One day is enough!

Q:* TODAY WAS A PRETTY BIG DAY FOR MANY PEOPLE HERE.

A:* Yes. It is good! Come back again whenever you can find time.

Q:* THANK YOU. I WILL.

A:* Good!