Chapter 20

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

A:* It is growing fast.

Q:* CAN YOU ESTIMATE HOW MANY YOU MIGHT HAVE WORLDWIDE?

A:* More than one million.

Q:* HOW MANY SAY TEN YEARS AGO WOULD YOU THINK? OR WHEN YOU LEFT INDIA HOW MANY DO YOU THINK YOU HAD?

A:* It is difficult for me to remember -- what is left, is left.

Q:* AND WHAT DO YOU THINK BRINGS PEOPLE TO PLACES LIKE RAJNEESHPURAM? DO YOU THINK IT'S FOR THE GOOD LIFE OR DO YOU THINK TO FIND THEMSELVES, TO FIND THEIR INNER SELVES OR IS IT A COMBINATION OF REASONS THAT BRINGS PEOPLE HERE TO LIVE?

A:* They are inseparable; they are not two things. Unless you find yourself, you cannot live a good life. Finding yourself is fundamental. Everything else follows it.

Q:* IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA THERE IS QUITE A STRONG AND HEALTHY COMMUNE IN FREMANTLE, AND THEY WERE TRYING TO GET ESTABLISHED IN PEMBERTON WHICH CAUSED QUITE A LOT OF CONCERN AMONGST THE LOCAL POPULATION. THE PEMBERTON COUNCIL HAS REFUSED TO ISSUE THEM A PERMIT -- DOES THAT WORRY YOU AT ALL?

A:* No. There is no question of worry. We will be fighting.

Q:* YOU'LL BE FIGHTING?

A:* We really enjoy fighting.

Q:* SO YOU'LL BE FIGHTING IT LEGALLY IN...?

A:* Legally.

Q:* YOU SAID SOME TIME AGO THAT YOU'D LIKE TO VISIT AUSTRALIA, PARTICULARLY WEST....

A:* Certainly.

Q:* DO YOU THINK YOU'LL STILL GO DOWN THERE?

A:* Still.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THE LOCAL TOWNSPEOPLE IN THE SMALL TOWN OF PEMBERTON SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THE RAJNEESHEES?

A:* They are unnecessarily worried. They should be happy, because we do no harm to anybody. We mean no harm to anybody. We are so absorbed in our own life and joy, that we don't at all have any time for others. They should be happy that a joyous group has joined them. They can learn much from my people. They can learn how to laugh, how to dance, how to sing and how to make life a paradise.

Q:* DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE A PARADISE ON EARTH (INAAUDIBLE) A:* Yes. We have! And you can go around this paradise and you will find only joy and love.

Q:* EVERYONE SEEMS TO BE SMILING AND HAPPY.

A:* Everybody is happy.

Q:* HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO ASK ANY, ANYONE TO LEAVE RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* No. Never. People join on their own; if they want to leave, they have to leave on their own. Freedom is the rule.

Q:* YOU HAVE A FAIRLY ACTIVE POLICE FORCE HERE -- DO THEY GET MUCH WORK TO DO?

A:* They have nothing, no work. If you can give them some work in Australia... I can bring them with me when I come! They are really fed up with their guns:

four years carrying guns and nothing to shoot!

Q:* HOW IS YOUR HEALTH THESE DAYS, BHAGWAN?

A:* It is better.

Q:* DO YOU HAVE TO TAKE MEDICATION?

A:* Yes.

Q:* ARE YOU A VEGETARIAN?

A:* Everybody here is vegetarian. To be non-vegetarian is inhuman. The non- vegetarian is exactly equal to a cannibal -- there is no difference -- except that cannibals eat better meat than the non-vegetarians.

Q:* BHAGWAN, WHY DID YOU BREAK YOUR SILENCE WHICH LASTED NEARLY THREE YEARS?

A:* I am a man of the moment: neither I look backward nor I look forward. This moment herenow is enough unto itself. If I feel like speaking, I speak -- whether there is anybody to hear it or not does not matter! If I don't want to speak, even if the whole world is ready to listen, I will not speak. I simply live according to my feelings.

Q:* WELL, YOUR WORDS TONIGHT ARE GOING TO BE READ BY AT LEAST FOUR MILLION PEOPLE, IF THEY BUY THE PAPER.

A:* That's good!

Q:* GETTING ONTO ANOTHER SUBJECT WHICH I KNOW IS NOT TABOO HERE....

A:* No. Nothing is tabooed here, so you can discuss any subject without any inhibition.

Q:* I BELIEVE FOR AT LEAST A YEAR YOU HAVE BEEN AWARE OF THE DANGER OF THE AIDS PROBLEM AND YOU HAVE INSTILLED CAREFUL PRECAUTIONS AMONGST YOUR SANNYASINS -- IS THAT CORRECT?

A:* That's right.

Q:* FOR HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN AWARE OF THIS DANGER?

A:* Just for the last year.

Q:* DO YOU THINK IT COULD DESTROY MANKIND OR....?

A:* It can. It has every possibility. It is not a normal disease, because it has no cure. In fact to call it disease is not right; it is death itself. Only death has no cure.

And the ways it spreads are so many, that's why it is almost going to kill two- third of humanity, because you can catch it just by kissing somebody, you can catch it by washing somebody's tears, you can catch it by somebody sneezing at you.

It used to be a joke that sex is nothing but a sneeze. For the first time it has become a reality. Any liquid coming out of the body of the person who is suffering from AIDS can infect. And once you are infected, you become a carrier; you will infect your wife, your children, everybody -- unconsciously, unknowingly.

Just now I received the message that in New York City alone, ninety-five percent homosexuals are positively confirmed AIDS patients, thirty-five percent of prostitutes of New York are confirmed AIDS patients, and every city is at a loss what to do. Because these thirty-five percent prostitutes will be spreading it every day and they must have spread to thousands of people already, and those people on their own.... So it is just like a wildfire and so invisible that you cannot prevent it.

Governments are repressing information, because no nation wants to be condemned that it has so much perverted sexuality. Religions are repressing. No monastery has declared yet how many percentage of the monks are suffering from AIDS. They must be suffering more than anyone else, because to me AIDS is a religious contribution to the world. Insisting on celibacy, insisting that monks should live separate from nuns, insisting that sex is sin, are the causes, the basic causes which have led ultimately to AIDS. The whole responsibility lies with your popes, Ayatollah Khomeini, Hindu shankaracharya and the religious leaders -- they all are doing the same thing for centuries. They have created homosexuality.

In the wild, animals never turn homosexual, but in a zoo when, where females are not available, even animals become homosexuals. Your monasteries are nothing but zoos. And man is more intelligent than animals, so he is going to find some way for his sexual energy -- and what he can do?

It is beyond his powers. Just by taking a vow of celibacy, he cannot make his biology understand that, "I am celibate." The biology goes on functioning in its own way; it doesn't care about you at all -- your philosophy, ideology, religion. It will create blood, it will create semen, it will function on its own. It is not in your control in any way.

So what the monk has to do with his sexual energy? It is a well-known fact that all the monks of all the religions, have to find something or other. They have made love to animals, sodomy is as old as old testament; it comes, the very word sodomy comes from old testament. They have been homosexuals, nuns have been lesbians....

So no religion wants to declare how many homosexuals are in their monasteries.

No city wants to take the note and inform the world and no individual wants to go through the test even! Because once you are confirmed that you are a homosexual, and you have a positive AIDS, you are a condemned individual.

You will not have any other exit except suicide, because even your parents, your wife, your children, your brothers, sisters, friends, all will deny you.

Q:* A NEWSPAPER I SAW IN VANCOUVER TWO DAYS AGO HAS A RAJNEESHPURAM DATELINE AND IT SAYS, "AIDS HAS STRUCK THE RAJNEESHEES: TWO FOLLOWERS OF GURU BHAGWAN SHREE RAJNEESH HAVE CONTRACTED THE USUAL, USUALLY FATAL DISEASE." IS IT TRUE?

A:* It is true, because this is the only place in the whole world where everybody in this commune has gone through the test, and we have found two persons suffering from AIDS.

These two persons are not condemned by the commune; on the contrary, they are receiving more love, more respect, for the simple reason because they are victims of religion. We have given them our best houses in the best scenic places -- to live, to read, to see the films, whatever they want to do and whatever we can supply to them. They can come to the commune, they can come to the lectures, they can come to the meditations, but they have to be careful not in any way contact physically anybody. And they understand it and they are tremendously grateful that they are here in this commune. In any other city they would have been thrown out.

Hospitals are not taking AIDS patients in; they are refusing.

Q:* ARE THESE TWO PEOPLE RELATED? OR ARE THEY LIVING TOGETHER NOW.

A:* No. They are together now, living in one place, but they are not related.

Q:* SO THE SANNYASINS WHO LIVE HERE ARE TAUGHT AND ENCOURAGED TO TAKE EVERY PRECAUTION -- THEY DON'T ALLOW KISSING OR....?

A:* Every precaution -- they have been told whatever can be dangerous to others.

And they are intelligent people: once they understand a thing, they simply do it.

In four years time, not a single baby has been born in the commune, because they understand; the world is so much overpopulated, now going on populating it more is simply making it more miserable, more starving. You are creating a burden for the world and you are giving your child an ugly world which is going to die either through AIDS or through nuclear weapons -- what is the point to give to the child such a world?

And nobody has prevented them. Just I explain things to them and then leave it up to their intelligence.

Q:* SO YOU PRACTICE ZERO BIRTH GROWTH?

A:* Zero birth growth. And that is unique. Nowhere in the whole world you will find five thousand people living together with zero birth control.

Q:* BUT SURELY IF THE OUTSIDE WORLD ADOPTED THE SAME POLICY, IT WOULDN'T TAKE LONG FOR THE THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES, WHO WOULD NEVER PRACTICE ZERO BIRTH CONTROL, TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD MAYBE.

A:* They can, they can, if they drop this stupid idea that they have to be democracies. My approach is that to afford democracy you have to be at a certain standard of living; below it you cannot afford democracy. Democracy is not so cheap. It is better those poor countries understand it, that what they need is a very dictatorial regime, that enforces anything that is going against humanity, against the nation.

Poor countries cannot afford democracy. What to say about poor countries? -- even a country like America can only talk about democracy, it cannot afford it.

Democracy is yet to happen!

Q:* ARE YOU POLITICALLY-MINDED, BHAGWAN?

A:* No.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK OF PRESIDENT REAGAN?

A:* Just a third-class fellow. But that is a necessary qualification for becoming a president or a prime minister: only third-class people aspire for those places. All politicians suffer from inferiority complex, so they want to become superior, just to convince themselves that they are not inferior.

Superior people need not convince themselves -- they know they are! So they may be painters, poets, they may be beggars -- it does not matter. If they don't suffer from inferiority complex, politics does not enter in.

Q:* YOU'RE A LEADER OF A BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE; PEOPLE LOOK UP TO YOU -- WHAT HAVE YOU GOT THAT PRESIDENT REAGAN HASN'T GOT?

A:* I am not a leader... and I have not tried to convert anybody to my way of life or my way of thinking. The people have come on their own, feeling some synchronicity between me and themselves. That's what I have and Reagan does not have. You can see that: where is Jimmy Carter now? Tomorrow the same will be the situation of Ronald Reagan. But I am going to be here for the whole coming history! Because I am not a leader.

A leader is something like a daily newspaper: by the evening it is useless. Just like your newspaper!

Q:* GOOD FOR WRAPPING UP FISH AND FISH AND FRENCH FRIES. YES.

A:* Give him some water!

Q:* ARE YOU HAVING A BIRTHDAY SOON AREN'T YOU? ARE YOU HAVING A BIG CELEBRATION FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY?

A:* I do not have any celebration. Every moment is a celebration to me. Talking to you, I am enjoying it so much!

Q:* ARE YOU REALLY ENJOYING IT?

A:* Really! My people celebrate -- I remain the same: I am celebrating all the year round.

Q:* WISH I HAD SOMETHING TO CELEBRATE ALL THE YEAR ROUND TOO.

A:* You celebrate!

Q:* DO YOU SPEND MUCH TIME OF YOUR DAY READING OR WRITING?

A:* No. I have never written anything.

Q:* DO YOU READ NEWSPAPERS?

A:* I don't read anything.

Q:* DO YOU RISE EARLY IN THE MORNING OR DO YOU JUST GET UP WHEN YOU FEEL LIKE IT?

A:* No. If I leave it to that I may not rise! So I leave it to my people to wake me up at six o'clock... Six in the morning. On my own I will not get up again -- just a bone-lazy fellow!

Q:* DO YOU MEDITATE FOR MANY HOURS A DAY?

A:* It is my twenty-four hour thing, because I will have to explain a little bit about it.... Other religions have prescribed people few minutes, half an hour -- to meditate, concentrate, contemplate, pray -- but to me the whole idea is idiotic that you can meditate for half an hour and for the remaining twenty-three and half hour, you can remain non-meditative. That is impossible. It is just like, "Breathe half an hour and for the remaining, forget all about it -- tomorrow morning breathe again."

Meditation is something that has to become your constant companion. So my method is such that it disturbs nothing. For example, I am talking to you: my method is while I am talking to you, I am fully aware of what I am saying, to whom I am saying.... Every gesture of my hand is with full awareness.

So do whatsoever you are doing -- walking on the street or swimming on the lake -- but remain conscious of your activity. Then you can be twenty-four hours in meditation. And unless you can be twenty-four hours in meditation, all your half an hour meditations are toys: you are just befooling yourself.

Q:* DO YOU EVER VISIT THE PUBLIC ENTERTAINMENT IN RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* No.

Q:* I BELIEVE YOU DID MAKE A QUICK VISIT TO THE DISCO ONE NIGHT.

A:* Yes. One night.... I went... just to shock my people! But it was not much of a disco, because as I went there, everything stopped and the whole commune gathered in the disco and around the disco, so I had just to go in and come out. I have not seen anything there except people -- the same people I see everywhere!

I wanted to know what the hell this disco is, but they did not allow me! I don't go anywhere. And entertainment is needed because you are not blissful with yourself... something is missing in you, some worry, some tension, that you want to forget. Entertainment helps you, for the time being.

To me there is no point at all in going to any entertainment. I am not against it -- I can go. If people feel happy by my going there, I can go anywhere, hell included!

But as far as I am concerned, I don't need any entertainment: I am so full of blissfulness in myself.

Q:* BUT YOU DON'T MIND YOUR SANNYASINS ENJOYING THEMSELVES AT THESE....?

A:* I don't mind, because they have yet to come to the space where I am. And I tell them that, "Enjoy and entertainment yourself as much as you can, because soon you will be sitting like me! So before that happens, the calamity of enlightenment, you just do every nonsense that you want to do, because later on there is nothing left to be done.

Q:* YES. LIVE LIFE FOR TODAY.

A:* Yes. Live life for today, because tomorrow is entertainment within yourself!

Or tomorrow is enlightenment; today you enjoy and do all kinds of foolish things -- go to the disco, go to the restaurant, and go to the playing cards -- do everything that a fool is expected to do! Because after enlightenment, now I know I missed so many things -- and missed forever!

Q:* DO YOU DENY YOURSELF PLEASURES OF THE FLESH?

A:* I don't deny anything. I don't deny anything. I am available to everything, but... it is not my need. I enjoy everything.

Q:* DO YOU ENJOY A DRINK OF ALCOHOL? -- BEER OR WINE.

A:* No. I don't like the taste. Otherwise they are vegetarian and there is no problem for me. I have tasted everything, but I did not like the taste! I am not against alcohol; I am against the taste of it.

Q:* BUT YOU LIKE YOUR SANNYASINS TO BE MODERATE IN UM....

A:* There is no question. I never give to my sannyasins any shoulds and should nots. Just I tell them: be alert and aware and do whatsoever you want to do. And don't wait for tomorrow, because who knows? -- tomorrow you may become enlightened -- that is the difficulty here!

Q:* WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BHAGWAN SHUFFLES OFF THIS MORTAL COIL? WILL THE RAJNEESHEES JUST FADE AWAY OR DO YOU THINK THE MOVEMENT WILL STAY FOREVER?

A:* That is for them to decide, not for me, even to discuss, because that may give some hint and I don't want even to give a hint what they have to do. Even while I am alive, I don't give them any directions. I am simply making them more and more alert and intelligent, and I depend on their intelligence. And I know whatever they will do right. Only retarded people need to be guided. Immature people need ten commandments.

I have got intelligent people around me. Almost all are university graduates, with all kinds of degrees -- Masters and Ph.D.'s, in all subjects. We are absolutely a self-sufficient organic commune. We have our doctors, we have our dentists, we have our nurses, we have our surgeons, we have our professors, we have our psychoanalysts -- we have everybody that we need.

Q:* YOU NEED A PSYCHOANALYST HERE?

A:* We need, because people who come from outside... sometimes they have repressed themselves so much and finding so much freedom without any discipline to enjoy freedom, they go nuts! For them we have therapists, all kinds of therapies. But for my own people there is no question. In fact every sannyasin is a therapist himself. Just listening to me for years... has made them as capable as any Sigmund Freud or Adler or Jung or Assagioli. In fact they understand more than Sigmund Freud, because Sigmund Freud was not aware of any meditation techniques. And psychology is incomplete without meditation, because then it is only superficial. Analysis of your dreams is not going to lead you to the realization of your being.

But the vice versa is totally different: if you realize your being, your dreams disappear.

So every sannyasin understands more. I have not written a single book, but there are at least three- hundred-fifty -- that's what my people say, because I have never counted.

Q:* THOSE BOOKS ARE WRITTEN FROM YOUR TALKS?

A:* Yes. From my talks, just verbatim.

Q:* JUST LIKE THIS MIGHT BE USED?

A:* This will be.

Q:* DO YOU EVER PLAY BACK WHAT YOU HAVE SAID OR DO YOU, ONCE YOU'VE SAID IT, JUST FORGET ABOUT IT?

A:* I go on contradicting myself.... Anybody who is growing, every moment, expanding is bound to contradict things of the past. Only people who are stuck at a point in their psychological development, remain consistent. Consistency is a disqualification. It simply shows a retarded person.

I love Walt Whitman's saying that, "I am vast enough to contain all contradictions." And this I can quote not only intellectually -- it is my own experience: I can contain all contradictions without any trouble. In fact the moment they are within me, they become complementaries.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU THINK OF MATERIAL THINGS? I'VE READ VARIOUS REPORTS ABOUT YOU HAVING SEVENTY ROLLS ROYCES AND I NOTICE YOU HAVE A BEAUTIFUL DIAMOND WATCH ON YOUR HAND -- DO MATERIAL THINGS WORRY YOU AT ALL OR DO THEY CONCERN YOU?

A:* I don't make any distinction between the material and the spiritual -- that is one of my most basic approaches. All the religions of the world have created a schizophrenic humanity, by dividing -- matter and spirit, this world and that world, God and creation, body and mind -- everywhere they have created duality. And in fact you are not a duality.

When you drink alcohol, it does not go in your mind; it goes into your physiology, but it affects your mind. Your mind is not separate from it. When you are hungry, starving, and the necessary proteins for your brain are not available to you, you start losing your intelligence. So to me, life is one organic whole. Matter is visible existence, the soul is invisible existence, but both are one and together.

So to me, to meditate and be in a beautiful space, and to be in the best car of the world, are not two separate things. And I love every beautiful thing, whether it is diamond or whether it is emerald or rubies... or ordinary stones!

You look at my watch again -- these are not diamonds, these are ordinary stones.

But they are so beautiful, they can defeat any diamonds. And this watch is made by one of my sannyasins, that's why I said, we are absolutely self-sufficient.

Everything that I am using, from my shoes to my hat, is made by my sannyasins.

This watch must be the cheapest watch in the world -- and the best!

Q:* DOES IT KEEP GOOD TIME?

A:* The best -- only one second per year it will lose! And it has no value in the sense of price, because these stones cost nothing and my sannyasins simply have worked out of love. But in other words, it is also invaluable. If somebody is going to give me one billion dollars for this watch, it is not for sale. Love is never for sale!

I have half million dollar watches too -- and not one but dozens, because I believe in abundance -- but most often I use my sannyasins' watches. They have made five, six and they are continuously making. Soon I will be using only their watches. Those million dollar watches are just rotting. I am not caring any more about them, because diamond is not the question; the question is the beauty, the love poured into it....

So I am absolutely in tune with the material world... and I am not losing anything spiritual. In fact, the more I am grounded in the material existence, the more I can rise higher into the spiritual world. A man is almost like a tree: the roots go deeper into the ground, in the darkness, under the earth, the tree grows higher and higher above, aspiring to touch the stars! Deeper the roots, higher the tree. Don't forget the roots, otherwise the tree will be dead. That's what has happened in religious countries; they denied matter.

For example, India was the first to discover mathematics, five thousand years before Albert Einstein. China was first to invent gunpowder, three thousand years before Hiroshima. China was first to invent printing machines, four thousand years before Europe. China started printing currency notes, two thousand years before any other country in the world. But what happened to these people who were so inventive and so ahead of everybody? Religion destroyed these people.

Religion condemned materialism, condemned richness, appraised poverty, and naturally, the geniuses of the country started becoming monks and in search of God, and nobody cared. Otherwise West is just a child. The whole scientific development is three hundred years old.

If the East was not disturbed by people like Gautam Buddha, Confucius, Mahavira, Krishna, then East would have been thousand times more powerful than America. But the reason why they are suffering and dying and starving -- the whole credit goes to their religious founders: those idiots disturbed millions of peoples' life. As far as I am concerned I consider them criminals and not ordinary criminals -- extraordinary criminals!

And my effort here is to make man whole, to drop the split, the division, the schizophrenia, so he can have all that matter can give and he can have all that spirit can give. Why not have both the worlds? I don't see the point -- why choose? If I can go to paradise in Rolls Royce, I don't see the point -- why should I go carrying a cross?

I am going into a Rolls Royce! If Mohammed can go on his horse directly to paradise, why not I can go on a Rolls Royce? There is no problem! And he has only one horse and I have ninety Rolls Royces, which have ten times more horse power....

Q:* THAT'S A THOUSAND TIMES MORE HORSE POWER.

A:* They are not yet complete. My garage is still waiting for more. And my sannyasins are preparing for three-hundred-sixty-five. One for every day seems to be exactly right.

Q:* IN THESE DAYS OF FEAR ABOUT AIDS, DO YOU THINK YOUR PHILOSOPHY OF FREE LOVE IS A VIABLE PHILOSOPHY? SURELY THE PRECAUTIONS THAT SANNYASINS HAVE TO TAKE, MUST TAKE A LOT OF THE ENJOYMENT OUT OF LOVE.

A:* No. Not at all. These precautions they have to take because of you -- because of the world, because of the society. These precautions are not just only against AIDS. AIDS is only symbolic of your whole world. And just in the beginning it seems to be unnatural -- just it is like if you go to an aboriginal tribe where people live naked: your clothes seems to be very unnatural. They don't seem unnatural to you, but the people who are living naked, and enjoying the sun and the sand and the wind, they can't figure it out what happened to you and why you are having a tie around your neck -- are you thinking to commit suicide?

They cannot figure it out, "What has happened to this man?"

The same is the situation: those precautions in the beginning will look precautions, within few days they become part of you. If it is cold, you use the woolen clothes and you don't think that, "This heavy cloth I have to wear and...."

You are not grumpy about it. But what to do? If the world is suffering from AIDS, and if I want to save my sannyasins alive, then they have to get accustomed. It is a question only of accustoming. And man -- remember -- has tremendous capacity of adjustment, to anything.

He can live in Siberia, he can live in the hottest places in Africa. Only two creatures are immensely adjustable: man and the cockroach. Wherever you will find man, you will find cockroach, except Rajneeshpuram....

You will not find a cockroach. And wherever you find a cockroach, it is almost certain you will find a man nearby: they have coexisted and they both are capable of strange situations. The cockroach also manages -- perhaps the cockroach is more intelligent in many ways. There are few species of cockroaches which make love... before making love -- and those are the real precautions those people have been taken from centuries, from all diseases, from any kind of trouble -- in the woman's belly, the man makes a new hole, every time he makes love. And you can count those healed holes, that how many times this woman has loved. And he never goes in the same hole again, so he is always making love to a virgin. This I call intelligence!

So there is no problem. My people have not complained, not a single person out of five thousand, that they are having any difficulty. They have understood the situation and they have to rise to the situation to face it.

And what we have done, every city and every country will have to do. We are the pioneers and they will have to follow exactly the same procedures. If they don't follow, they are going to be in a rotten state. And better they do it soon, because the disease is really spreading fast in many areas of Europe, in America, in California, where thousands and millions of homosexuals are living. And something has to be done very quickly, but it seems all the leaders are simply trying not to pay attention to it -- that is also a tendency of the human mind. If you are facing something which you cannot solve, then you try to avoid it, as if it is not there.

But we are not in that category. If any problem is there, we take it as a challenge and we want to face it.

Q:* YES, I THINK A LOT OF WORLD LEADERS ARE DOING THE OSTRICH AND PUTTING THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND AND PRETENDING IT WILL GO AWAY, OR HOPING IT WILL GO AWAY, BUT IT WON'T GO AWAY.

A:* It cannot go away. In fact, what they are doing may make the situation worse. For example, in Texas they have made a law, that homosexuality is a crime. The homosexuals protested it, went to the Texas supreme court and refused, that the law will stand against them. It is for the first time, because of their protest, that world has become known: one million homosexuals in Texas!

And Texas must be the most backward state in America -- what about California?

Now, driving one million homosexuals underground -- because you have turned them into criminals -- driving them underground is far more dangerous. They will continue and now they will not be in any way coming for testing, and they will go on spreading the whole thing around. I think the supreme court has done something wrong, the Texan leaders have done something wrong. Just to make it criminal, a disease does not disappear.

It is not something that you have to make a law against, and finished! And they are feeling very good, that they have done something.

They have done something dangerous.

Q:* YES. IT DOES SOUND A BIT STUPID. DO YOU CONDONE HOMOSEXUALITY IN RAJNEESHPURAM?

A:* I don't condemn. I tell them that you are victims and you don't need any condemnation or punishment; you need simple therapy and we have therapy groups here, where you can be again made natural, heterosexual. As far as lesbians are concerned, there is no danger, because they don't create AIDS. So about lesbians, I am not saying anything -- if somebody wants to be a lesbian, that is perfectly good. Perhaps lesbianism will be the reason to save humanity one day.

If all male by and by become infected, then lesbianism seems to be one of the best ways to prevent humanity from dying. All women should stop making any love to any man -- husband or no husband. Whole human society, the lesbians should spread: all women should become lesbians. That's will be the best solution, and for poor man... they should get tested. If they are still in tact and they are not having AIDS, then they should start donating their semen to the hospitals. That semen can be inseminated to the women for new children.

Q:* THAT'S NOT LIVING FOR TODAY, THOUGH. THAT'S NOT ENJOYING LIFE, IS IT?

A:* It is not a question of enjoying life. It is a question of enjoying everything.

This is a great experiment -- at least my people will enjoy. It is really great to see all the women becoming lesbians... and all the male dodos and machos standing in queue before the hospital -- that's what they need, they deserve!

Q:* THE PEOPLE IN MY HOME STATE ARE VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE RAJNEESHEE GROUP AND HAVE YOU ANY MESSAGE FOR THEM -- CAN YOU ALLAY THEIR FEARS? CAN YOU TELL THEM SOMETHING THAT MIGHT MAKE THEM FEEL HAPPIER?

A:* I cannot. I can say only things which will make them more worried! Because to me, to be truthful is more important than their worries. Their worries are their problem, and they are out of their ignorance. They should become acquainted with my approach and they will not see any cause of worry.

Four years before when we came here, the whole Oregon became agitated and frightened and hostile, and they started so many cases against us. And we are defeating them in every case. In fact a situation has come where we are defending the constitution and they are going against it! And I have made it clear that we will stand for the American constitution, because it is one of the most beautiful constitution in the world. Even if we have to fight against whole America, the constitution is more valuable than this whole America, because it has beautiful values, hopes of all humanity.... But they are unnecessarily worried!

But somehow it seems human nature: to strangers you feel afraid. And I am certainly, in every way a stranger, on every count. We cannot agree on any point.

And I am ready, I have given them challenge -- to the governor or to the president -- open challenge to discuss on anything that you think we are wrong.

We are ready to listen to you and if we are wrong, we are ready to change ourselves. But if we convince you that you are wrong, then be ready to be changed! That takes the ground away from their feet. They know they are not right.

For example, a commune of five thousand people, for four years, has transformed a desert into an oasis. Rather than coming here and seeing that we have changed the desert, which was lying for fifty years for sale and nobody was ready to purchase it, because what you will do with the desert? We changed the desert and they are putting cases against us for the misuse of land. I used to think that idiots are spread all over the world, but finally I found they are all in Oregon!

Q:* I'VE HAD A LOOK AT YOUR FARMING COMMUNITY HERE AND THE WAY YOU RECYCLE THINGS AND IT'S VERY VERY GOOD.

A:* Yes. You just look.... We have been doing everything that.... And there was nothing here -- just one dilapidated house -- and we have created houses for five thousand people and we have created farms, greenhouses for vegetables, fruits.

You will have a taste of our fruits. We have our own milk products. And they are without coming here. We have been inviting them that, "At least you should come and see!"

And if it goes against your law, then change your law, because man is not for law. Law is for man. We change the desert and we are criminals, because somehow it goes against your law. And you were never talking about that law; for fifty years the land was not used, it was perfectly lawful.

Five thousand people are living here, but they don't want to accept it as a city.

And they had accepted it, they incorporated it. For two years they were funding it as a city, from the state and from the federal government, and seeing my vision of life and my approach to life, they became so agitated and afraid that they declared the city illegal.

So this is the only illegal city in the world. There are cities or there are no cities, but illegal city is an uniqueness.... And we are going to win, because the city exists, and they are denying it. And the amazing part is: in these four years not a single crime, not a single rape, not a single murder, not a single theft, not a single suicide, and this city is illegal. And New York and San Francisco are legal, where every moment there are crimes.

So it seems not to commit crime is illegal. If they force, we should start committing crime -- what to do?

Q:* I WAS TOLD THAT I WOULD SEE ARMED GUARDS PATROLLING THE STREETS -- I HAVEN'T SEEN ANY SINCE I'VE BEEN HERE. DO YOU STILL HAVE ARMED GUARDS?

A:* I have, because every day we receive phone calls that they are going to bring a crowd, to create disturbance, they are going to burn our houses, they are going to create fire, and every day threats that they are going to kill me and kill that.

We go on sending those reports to the government that, "You should inquire and look who are the illegal people! We have not threatened anybody."

And those guards are police! -- they are part of the state of Oregon. And they are just there so nobody can create any nuisance.

Q:* PREVENTIVE RATHER THAN...?

A:* Absolutely preventive, because for four years they have not done any harm to anybody.

Q:* BUT THEY ARE SANNYASINS -- THE POLICEMEN ARE SANNYASINS?

A:* They are sannyasins. They have taken the training of the police. And the sannyasins have topped in every training, in every field, and they have proved their guts there too, and made it clear that it is not going to be a easy thing, to anything if you are planning to do against.

We are harmless, we don't want to do harm to anybody, but we will not let anybody harm us either, because that is too supporting violence.

Q:* SO YOU TAKE ALL NECESSARY STEPS TO...?

A:* We will take every necessary step.

Q:* DO YOU THINK IT... ONE DAY IT MIGHT LEAD TO BLOODSHED?

A:* It is all in their hands, because the governor is keeping the army alert. It looks so stupid! We have invited him that, "You should come and see that these peaceful people, they don't go out, the nearest neighbor is twenty miles away, we have nothing to do with anybody, we are living like a separate island and we don't have to depend on anybody else, we have everything that we need -- you just come and see. And if you see that this is a place where you have to bring army, you just tell us why, what is the reason.

But no, they don't have guts to come and see. And the day they had this secret meeting of all government agencies chiefs, where they decided that army should be kept alert -- that within three hours, army should reach Rajneeshpuram -- he did not allow any of our representatives.... " You were discussing us, you wanted to take some decision about us -- at least you should listen to our story too!" He did not allow that. He did not allow the press either.

Press was not allowed and he said that, "I will talk to the press after the meeting."

And whatever he talked was absolute lie! Whatever had happened in the meeting, not a single thing he mentioned to the press. And whatsoever he mentioned to the press was not discussed in the inside. Just by chance, one journalist managed to get the secret file, and it was shown on the television. Now we have got the copy from that journalist in which they are preparing for a war!

It seems so idiotic....

Q:* HAS THE GOVERNOR VISITED HERE AT ALL? -- STATE GOVERNOR.

A:* No. None of these people who have been deciding there, none of them has been here. And we are every day in the news, every day in the television, in every magazine, every newspaper -- it is not that anything is hidden here. They can come -- and we invited them as our guests! But, no -- they don't want to come.

Q:* YOU WELCOME VISITORS, DON'T YOU?

A:* I welcome visitors, because that's the only way the world to become acquainted with us.

Q:* I WAS VERY IMPRESSED BY YOUR PRESS ORGANIZATION HERE AND YOUR PUBLIC RELATIONS AND YOUR CHAMBER OF COMMERCE -- THEY'RE VERY HELPFUL AND....

A:* Anything you will see -- we have tried the best that we can do within our circumstances.

Q:* SORRY TO GO BACK TO MY HOME STATE, BUT WOULD YOU LIKE TO ESTABLISH A RAJNEESHEE COMMUNITY IN...?

A:* Certainly, we are establishing everywhere around the world -- how can we leave Australia? That will be insulting to Australia!

Q:* SO YOU'LL BE FIGHTING THE LEGAL MOVES THAT WILL BE MADE?

A:* Soon we are going to be there. Our people are already there... just they have to come to one place and make a commune. I have many Australian sannyasins....

Just the question is of having a good place so they can have an independent commune. And it will be good for Australia, to see the commune and to see how these people live and, "Why they are so happy and why we are so miserable?"

And in fact, intelligent Australians should help my people. Anything new should be helped, because perhaps this may be the alternative to the rotten society, to a civilization which is dying. So a chance to any new thing must be given. Rather than being hostile, be friendly -- my people are very friendly, very loving.