Chapter 2

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

A:* It simply means becoming aware of yourself. Ordinarily, a man is awake to everything around him, but is not aware who is awake and aware of all the things around. So we remain on the periphery of life and the center remains in darkness. To bring light to that center, consciousness to that center is what enlightenment is.

It is just being absolutely centered in yourself, focusing all your consciousness upon yourself as if nothing else exists, only you are.

A:* Right.

A:* Just the same way as a person is asleep. How are you going to define the difference between the person asleep and the person who is awake? The person asleep is dreaming or, not dreaming, but one thing is certain -- he is not aware that he is asleep.

The man who is awake, whatever he is doing, one thing is certain, he is aware that he is awake. This is the only difference on the spiritual level, too. Spiritually asleep person is not aware that he is asleep; and spiritually awakened person is aware that he is awake, and of course, he is aware of all those who are asleep.

The awakened person has two definite positions: one, that he is aware; second, that all others who are around him are asleep. But the asleep person has none of these two. He is not aware he is asleep and he is not aware that others around him are asleep.

A:* Just a continuous flow of thoughts.... A continuity of thoughts. That is functioning as a barrier. That is the layer that keeps you unaware; either you are thinking about the past or you are thinking about the future, but nether the past exists nor the future. And between these two is the very small gap of the present which you go on missing. That is the point where awakening happens.

That small gap, I make it equivalent to atomic gap. Smallest possible gap which slips so quickly that if you are not completely free from thoughts, you are going to miss it.

A:* That is the only mind you have. And the deer are not aware of the present; it is you who are thinking that they are aware of the present. They are not. They are neither aware of the present, nor they are aware of the past, nor of the future.

They don't have any thought process.

It is man's prerogative to be aware of the past, to be aware of the future; and, if he makes effort, then there is a potential in him to be aware of the present. No animal can become enlightened.

Every man has the potential to become enlightened. If he does not become, he is responsible -- nobody else is responsible for it.

A:* I have not planned anything.

A:* And they are asleep, and they are free to plan.... They are sound asleep and doing great things! I am the only person who is not doing anything!... Because I cannot afford to dream and to project and to do. They can afford; they are asleep.

A:* If everybody is awakened, there will be no planning and there will be no need for planning. People will spontaneously function. For example, I have never planned my life; I don't know what I am going to say the next sentence. You will ask the question and my response will be there; but it is not prepared. No planning has gone into it.

So if everybody was enlightened, we will have a totally different world, almost inconceivable now. You will not have atomic weapons, you will not have war.

You will not have crimes; you will not have courts. You will not have politicians.

You won't have saints, popes; these all will disappear. You will have very innocent, simple but joyous people all around. They will be doing things, but they will be very simple things, not complicated. Nothing like nuclear weapons.

They will make houses, but they will not have architecture and schools for architecture. They will do whatsoever is needed simply, without getting into deep details. They will start things without knowing where it is going to end.

That's how I have lived; without planning for all these three decades, not knowing anything about tomorrow. But everything has gone perfectly well. In fact, I cannot conceive it could have been better.

A:* I don't know. There is no way of knowing.

A:* Not necessarily.... It is very unique and very individual.

A:* I am explaining it.... And I am explaining it better than anybody else has ever explained it.

A:* I have not written a single book.

A:* The basic thing is meditation; but meditation can happen in two ways. Either it can happen in your absolute aloneness, unrelated to anybody. You can move inwards in your silence. Just sitting there watching your thoughts moving. As you watch, you become aware of a strange phenomenon: that the gaps between thoughts are becoming bigger and bigger. The thought process is no more so thick as it was before.

Just few days of sitting silently, doing nothing, no interference with thoughts, no judgment about them whether they are good or bad, just sitting by the side of a river -- as if -- and the river flows by. But the strange experience comes to you that the more you are watchful, less are the thoughts. As your watchfulness grows higher, your thoughts go on becoming lesser and lesser and lesser.

A moment comes when your thoughts are nil, and your awareness is full. It is exactly proportionate: 100 percent awareness means zero thoughts; 100 percent thoughts means zero awareness.

So either it is possible in your aloneness, or it is possible in your relationship. In relationship particularly, in moments when you are making love, meditation is very easy, because the very experience of making love brings you to a point where thoughts stop.

A:* Yes. When thoughts stop and you are simply there, experiencing the thrill. If you know that this moment can be transformed into meditation then this is the simplest way. Rather than sitting under a bo tree for six years, it can happen in your bedroom, there is no need to go in a forest. And far more easily, because you are following a natural course. Your biology will support you, your physiology will support you, your woman will support you. Everything will be supportive, just you have to be alert that when orgasm happens, don't get lost into it. Remain a witness. Remain a watcher.

So the whole thing is simple, but that is the difficult point. In relationship the difficult point comes because in orgasm you are feeling so pleasant, so blissed out, that you will tend to forget your awareness.

A:* Yes. Getting lost into the experience, not attached. Attachment is a different thing. Getting lost, getting drowned in the experience. You should not get drowned in the experience. Your physiology is in it, your biology is in it, your chemistry is in it, but you are not. You are not just a watcher. So in your bedroom there are three persons, or even four.

A:* That is the witness.

A:* Just you become unconscious immediately. The whole thing is to be conscious, and the moment you become attached, you lose consciousness. The moment you become one with the experience, which will be a natural tendency.

Millions of people know the experience of orgasm, but they all don't become enlightened for the simple reason because the natural tendency is when there is so much a blissful moment, who wants to be a witness? That will be missing the point in a way. You will be standing away, and when the experience is happening for which you have been hankering your whole life.... And it is a very small moment. It is not going to continue for hours so that you can stand also, you can get into and get out. There is not time. It is very momentary, very atomic.

Natural tendency is to be drowned in it. That's why many people come very close to enlightenment, but just miss by a single step.

A:* They are different things.... Being one with all is a by-product of becoming a witness. It comes as a shadow to it; it does not precede it. Merging into an experience precedes it; and if you are merged into an experience then you are in the state of a drunkard. It may be love, it may be anything, but you are drunk.

You are not alert, aware. And when I say becoming one with the whole, that is not in your hands. That comes as a reward of being a witness.

What you can do is to be a witness. There your doing ends. More than that, man cannot do.

A:* No. I will respond, I will not react.

Reaction is impossible. Reaction is always unconscious; and response is always conscious. For example, Jesus says if somebody hits on your one cheek, give him your other, too. Being a Christian, if I hit you on your one cheek, you may remember Jesus' statement and you may give me the other cheek. This is reaction. You are not responding to the moment. Your mind is reminding you what has to be done, what is right to do. This is the moment when you can prove that you are really a Christian. All these things will not take much time -- just in a flash.

That will be reaction. Response is unpredictable.

A:* No, it is not conditioned. It is unpredictable because it is not Christian, it is not Hindu, it is not Buddhist. It is my individuality, so even I cannot say if you get angry what I will do.

A:* No. They are all my friends.

CAN YOU DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THESE TWO? THERE'S A LOT OF LOVE TOWARDS YOU, BUT IS THERE A POINT WHERE LOVE CAN GO OVER TO SORT OF IDOL WORSHIP?

A:* That is love going wrong. Love moving into a wrong direction. Adoration is not love. You have put somebody on a high pedestal, and this is not an act of love. It has its consequences.

If you adore somebody and put somebody higher than you, you are bound to put somebody lower than you, and you would like to be adored by somebody. It is an organic phenomenon.

It happened, I was meeting one of the shankaracharyas, the Hindu pope; he was sitting on a high platform and just by his side on a smaller platform, another Hindu monk was sitting. He introduced me that, "Do you see who is this man sitting by my side?" I said, "I don't know." He said, "He has been the chief justice of the supreme court of India; but he is so humble that he never sits on the same platform as I am sitting."

I said, "I can see that." He had a smaller platform, but I am sitting on the floor.

And I told that chief justice of the supreme court that you should dig a hole in the earth here and sit there, because I am sitting here -- what kind of humbleness is this. And I told the shankaracharyas, that he is simply waiting. The moment you fall in your grave, he will jump on your platform and there is a third sannyasin sitting on the floor, he will jump on his platform. This is simple hierarchy.

And you call it humbleness? Neither you are humble, nor he is humble. You are fulfilling his ego by calling him the most humble person, and what is the need to remind me that he is a retired chief justice of the supreme court of India? What is the need? He is a sannyasin now; he has renounced the world, but he has not renounced the retirement. He has not forgotten yet that he was the chief justice of the supreme court. And do you recognize the fact that your saying this is simply fulfilling your ego, too? That I don't have ordinary disciples. And calling him humble, you fill his ego; and he, refusing to sit on the same platform with you, fulfills your ego. This is a mutual conspiracy. You are enemies of each other. You are destroying each other without knowing what you are doing. You are poisoning.

Adoration is dangerous. Anybody who adores somebody is the wake of it, would like to be adored by somebody else. Otherwise it is impossible for him to adore somebody. That would be only one pole. Where is the other pole? A polarity is needed. In love there is no hierarchy. Nobody is higher than you. You don't require anybody to be inferior to you. There is no question of equality, either. When there is nothing higher and nothing lower, the very question of equality becomes irrelevant. Everybody is himself.

A:* That is their fault.... Because I am nobody's guru.

A:* I have the capacity to mirror; but no mirror needs to be a guru.... In your bathroom, you have a mirror. Is that mirror your guru?... A mirror is just a mirror. There is no need to make a guru out of it. It is his nature; just because it is a mirror it reflects. There is no need to bow down and touch the feet of the mirror, and put the mirror on your head and move around the world that you have a guru because it mirrors you. There is no need.

Yes, I can mirror. Only you have to open your eyes; otherwise, what the mirror can do? You can stand before the mirror with closed eyes. The mirror will be still reflecting, but a man with closed eyes, the man will not know that he is being reflected. He will not know that there is a mirror. Mirror will be doing its function. It is nothing on the part, in fact, mirror is not doing anything. It is just the nature of the mirror.

If you are not there and a dog is standing there, he will be mirrored.

A:* Certainly I am saying that there is no creator. Creation itself is enough unto itself; it needs no outside agency to create it. The moment you accept an outside agency to create it, you fall into a vicious circle. Because the reasoning is that how can existence be there without being created by someone? That is the reasoning of all the religions. If you accept their reasoning then the question arises: Who created the God? And if God can be there without being crated then what is the problem? Then existence can be there without being crated, so why unnecessarily go from A to B, from B to C, and those are all hypothesis. God A creates god B, god B creates god C unnecessarily. The whole theology is simply nonsense. It begins with God, theo means God, and logy means logic about God.

That is a contradiction in terms.

A:* Yes, if you want to use word God.

A:* There is no problem. There is no problem for (typewriter defect -- check tape) have to change the meaning. Because the donkey will be the god, even the yankee will be the god. Better drop that word because that word is dangerous.

Then sometimes you are riding on a donkey, you are riding on a god. Sometimes you are....

A:* I would like to call it pure consciousness. Just consciousness. Or if you are too attached to the word god, call it godliness, but don't make it a noun, make it a quality. Godliness is perfectly okay.

A:* Because the moment you make it a noun you kill(?) it. The moment you make it a noun you stop its growth. Nouns don't grow, only verbs grow.

A:* That is one of the reasons. There are thousands and one reasons more.... Jesus would be a crackpot even if he accepted that there is no God. That will not make much difference.... Because there have been people, like Gautam Buddha, who does not believe in God. Still he makes the same kind of statements as Jesus is making, and I will call those statements also mad. For example, the story also is just as it is in Jesus' case, that he declares himself the only begotten son of God.

Buddha cannot say that, because there is no God in his ideology, but he declares that, I am the supreme most awakened person. That is equivalent to God. Why you should be the supreme most? Past, present, future, Buddha is the supreme most enlightened person. Nobody can go higher than him. If I met him I'm going to kick him. He is a crackpot. This type of person, he does not believe in God, but he himself put in God's place. He's in fact worse than Jesus Christ. At least Jesus Christ is only the begotten son of God. He does not claim himself to be the God.

Krishna claims himself to be God (in?). Now Krishna is a bigger.... All these people need psychiatry.

A:* Yes, he was suicidal.... Jesus is in many ways trying to prove that he is the awaited messiah of the Jews, and that is the whole conflict between the Jews and Jesus. Jesus was never a Christian, you have to remember it. He was born a Jew, he lived as a Jew, he died as a Jew. He never heard the word Christian. It was only after three hundred years, when the bible was translated into Greek that messiah became Christ, and the followers of the christ became Christians. This is a three hundred later -- three hundred year later development.

Jesus was continuously emphasizing that he is the awaited Messiah. And not a single Rabbi was convinced of it. Those twelve fools that he convinced, who became his apostles, were all illiterate, poor people, fishermen, woodcutters, farmers who had no idea of what he is talking about. They were simply happy that they are the followers, the chosen few of the only begotten son of God.

Something was wrong with their psychology too. They were becoming without any cause, special. And they were raising Jesus as high as possible because with Jesus they go on rising higher. The night Jesus was caught, you will be surprised that his disciples asked him, "Lord, now you will be gone, how long it will take for you to come back and take us?" He said, "Soon, I will be coming back on the glory with God's light and I will take you all. I am going to prepare places for you." They said, "One question more. Of course you will be on the right side of God. Who will be by your side amongst these twelve people? Who will be second to you?" They wanted to decide the hierarchy. This type of gathering cannot be sane. These people would be perfectly right if they were in politics.

A:* Let me explain to you. It is not only about Christianity. Buddha has not written anything, Mahavira has not written anything, Krishna has not written anything. No founder of any religion has ever written anything. They have all spoken. So everything was written by others. But, as far as Jesus is concerned, it is more probable that he said it than Krishna, or Buddha or Mahavira. Because there are four gospels, in fact five. Five disciples writing almost exactly the same thing. Without any contradiction. It is enough proof that it has come from the same source, that the person has said something because it is reflected in all the five gospels almost in similar words.

A:* That is true. That is true. The church has changed. But fortunately one gospel has remained outside the church. That is the gospel of Thomas, on which I have spoken. I'm the only man in two thousand years which has spoken on something which has remained outside the church. Because church accepted these four gospels. Thomas was not here, Thomas was in India, so his gospel remained in South India. But that gospel exactly repeats the same what the four gospels say.

Of course more accurately, more exactly and more significantly. Churches may have done something but they have not messed much because there is an independent source to be compared.

As far as Jesus is concerned, it is very difficult to defend him on this ground that these were perhaps not his words. These were certainly his words.

A:* Christianity, Judaism, Mohammedanism, these three religions have nothing to offer -- except stupidity. Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, have much to offer.

Hinduism is just in the middle of these two -- much nonsense, much sense, all mixed. What Buddhism Taoism, Jainism, has to offer in a sense is the method of meditation. Those are the three religions who are based on the method of meditation. All the three have no idea of God. All the three are completely free of this father figure, which is really a projection of child psychology -- you need a protector, you need somebody to create, you need.... Those three religions are more mature. But the contribution is the same. Their methods of meditation may be a little bit different. I have tried all their methods, but they reach to the same conclusion. They are all existential, experiential, they are not theoretical, and they are not based on belief. They don't require you to believe anything. Their approach is very scientific. So those three religions have offered one thing, which is all that is needed. They have offered many more things which are rubbish.

And it is very difficult for someone, unless he himself has meditated and experienced this space to find out of the whole garbage. For example, Buddhism has as many scriptures as thirty-three thousand scriptures, and each scripture has hundreds of commentaries on it, and then commentaries on commentaries. It is said that if all the literature on Buddhism, in India, in Tibet, in China, in Japan, in Korea, in Sri Lanka can be accumulated, then you can put all the books of the whole world on one side, still the books on Buddhism will be the weightier. Just in weight.

A:* I claim to have the first and the last religion. For the simple reason that except meditation I have nothing else. So I have found the very essential core. No garbage around it, nothing non-essential, just a simple methodology. And I have looked into all the methods of meditation -- there are one hundred and twelve methods. I have spoken on the one hundred and twelve methods of meditation, and out of one hundred and twelve methods that have been practised in the East by these three religions, I have chosen one essential point that is connecting all those one hundred and twelve methods. They differ only in small details, but their basic foundation is witnessing.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO MOVE ON TO YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS HERE IN OREGON. YOU'RE QUOTED: "I ALWAYS LOVED THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION AND NOW I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER IF I HAD NOT COME HERE AS I AM FEELING ABSOLUTELY DISAPPOINTED. THAT CONSTITUTION IS BOGS, THE WORDS; FREEDOM, INDIVIDUALISM, CAPITALISM, FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION ARE ALL JUST WORDS." THAT WAS IN THE EUGENE REGISTER GUIDE OF NOVEMBER 6TH '84. YOU SEEM TO HAVE THE PROTECTION HERE THOUGH. YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PUT THIS OASIS IN VERY ARID LAND. WHY WOULD YOU SAY YOU ARE DISAPPOINTED IN THE CONSTITUTION?

A:* Because it is a question of degrees. I have respected American constitution more than anybody else in the whole world -- Americans included. Because I have respected the constitution as the only democratic constitution in the world, hence my disappointment. I would not have been disappointed in Soviet Union, because I had no respect for their dictatorship in the first place. If they had even killed me I would have accepted it as a matter of course. But I cannot accept any nonsense here in America because of my respect for the constitution, my respect for the word democracy, freedom, individuality, respect for the individual. We have crated this oasis not because of American government, but in spite of American government. They are creating every king of hindrance. They are putting every kind of trouble and they are absolutely illegal. What they are doing is unconstitutional. It is against their own constitution. That's why I say....

Q:* BUT THE CONSTITUTION IS REALLY THAT WHICH WILL EVENTUALLY PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS. AND I KNOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS PEOPLE, HAVE BEEN CAUSING YOU PROBLEMS HERE.

A:* Wait a moment. I will protect the constitution.

Q:* YOU'RE DOING THAT?

A:* Not the constitution. Constitution is a dead thing. What constitution can do for me? I will do something for the constitution. I am going to fight for the constitution against the Americans who are prostituting it.

Q:* WHY DO YOU THINK THE NEIGHBORS AROUND HERE HAVE BEEN SO DISTURBED ABOUT YOUR MOVING IN?

A:* Anywhere it would have been the same.... For the simple reason, man is an animal, has come from animals, has a territorial interrogative. It is their territory and we are strangers. And you will be surprised to know that even in India where I was born, I was a stranger. Because I did not believe in their traditions, I did not believe in their conventions. I did not support their religions. I did not support their values. I was a stranger in India too, and the Indian neighbors were as much against me as the Oregonians. So Oregonians are not doing anything special....

Q:* WHY ARE PEOPLE REACTING THIS WAY? WHY DO THEY FEEL THREATENED BY YOUR PRESENCE HERE?

A:* It is not a question of my presence. Why Jesus was crucified by Jews? Why Gandhi was assassinated by Hindus? Why many attempts on the life of Buddha were made? It is just a simple thing to understand, that's why I'm not angry about it. I accept it as part of man's animal nature. I am a constant threat to them.

For example, my people are happy, joyous, dancing, enjoying. And those Oregonians around me look sad, bored -- as the whole world is sad and bored and everybody is feeling cheated by life. Nobody seems to find contentment.

Nobody is able to rejoice life. And suddenly they see few strangers coming here and enjoying for no reason at all. Trying hard, twelve and fourteen hours a day working and changing the desert.

And in four years we have changed it. Now we are self-supportive, self-sufficient -- for our food, or vegetables, for our milk. And this is when everything is being done against us. We are fighting in every court. We must be having the biggest law firm in the world -- four hundred legal experts. Here four hundred sannyasins are working continually to fight in so many courts unnecessarily. In every case we are winning. And they know finally we are going to win. But they can delay at least. They can harass at least, and this is human nature.

So I'm not angry about it, and I don't think that it is anything unexpected, but as far as America is concerned, my expectations were higher than about any other country. It is a new country, only about three hundred years old. It should be more fresh. It should be more capable of existing new ideas, new people. But they are behaving just as idiotically as Indians.

India is an old country, almost dead. I was not disappointed with the Indians.

They had made attempts on my life, and I was not disappointed even in that. But with America I have a certain love affair.

Q:* DO YOU SEE THE POSSIBILITY OF RECONCILING YOUR DIFFERENCES WITH THE NEIGHBORS AROUND HERE?

A:* That depends on them. I never compromise on any point. Either I am right or I am wrong. If they can prove me wrong I am perfectly willing to be with them.

Or I am ready to prove them wrong, then they have to be with me. I don't compromise on any point. Compromise is only for impotent people.

Q:* YOU ARE ALSO QUOTED SOMEWHERE, I HAVE IT HERE. YOU SAID THAT IF THEY WOULD HATE US YOU COULD DEAL WITH HATE BECAUSE YOU COULD TRANSMUTE THAT INTO LOVE.

A:* Yes, that is true.

Q:* BUT YOU CAN'T STAND BEING IGNORED....

A:* That's right.

Q:* BUT YOU'VE HARDLY BEEN IGNORED BY THE PRESS, SINCE YOU BROKE SILENCE ON JULY 20TH.

A:* They cannot ignore, and I will not allow them to ignore.

I mean by that, that whatsoever media is doing right now, is not according to my standards. Although my Commune is small, but it is a worldwide phenomenon.

We have communes all over the world, even in East Germany. Even in Soviet Russia. Of course they are underground.

Q:* THEY'RE NOT WEARING RED AND ORANGE YOU SAY?

A:* They cannot. Red has become my monopoly. I have taken it away from Communists.

Q:* SO YOU'RE DISAPPOINTED IN THE NEWS COVERAGE THAT YOU'VE BEEN GETTING?

A:* Yes, it is nothing. Much more is needed, and we will bring it.

Q:* SO YOU DON'T MIND WHETHER IT IS SENSATIONALIZED?

A:* That does not matter....

Q: AS LONG AS YOU ARE GETTING COVERAGE?

A: Anything will do. That we can manage.

Q:* YOU PREDICTED THE START OF THE APOCALYPSE, TEN TO FIFTEEN YEAR PERIOD OF TRANSFORMATION HERE ON EARTH -- IT WAS SUPPOSED TO START IN '84. HAS THIS STARTED AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THE CONCRETES YOU CAN POINT TO SAY THAT IT'S STARTED?

A:* Just creating gossips ... don't bother about these things.

That's my way of not being ignored. I can predict anything without any trouble.

Q:* WELL HAS IT HAPPENED? IN `83 YOU SAID IT WAS GOING TO START IN `84.

A:* It is not going to happen.

Q:* IT'S OVER. WE'RE IN THE NEW AGE?

A:* I don't take life seriously.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO TAKE A QUOTE FROM THE RAJNEESH TIMES OF AUGUST 16TH: "AIDS IS THE ULTIMATE DEVELOPMENT OF HOMOSEXUALITY. IT HAS NO CURE. YOU HAVE GONE SO FAR AWAY FROM NATURE THAT THERE IS NO WAY BACK. YOU HAVE BROKEN ALL THE BRIDGES BEHIND YOU. THAT'S THE DISEASE AIDS." NOW THIS IS ATTRIBUTED TO YOU.

COULD YOU EXPAND ON THAT STATEMENT?

A:* That's exactly right.

Q:* JERRY FALWELL SAYS THAT THAT IS GOD'S REVENGE ON THE HOMOSEXUALS. NOW ARE YOU SAYING THAT HOMOSEXUALITY HAS MOVED THAT FAR AWAY FROM NATURE, NOT GOD BUT NATURE, THAT THAT IS NATURE COMING BACK AT THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY?

A:* God himself is a homosexual. First make it a point: the Christian trinity has not a single woman in it. It is a gay company. If anybody has to suffer from AIDS it is your God first.

Q:* WELL HOW DOES THAT DIFFER?

A:* It is absolutely different, because he is trying again to create fear in people.

He's not giving a factual analysis of the disease. Let me give you an example:

There was an earthquake in Bihar in India. And Mahatma Gandhi said that the earthquake has happened because God has punished the sinners. I was very young. I wrote him a letter that it is very strange only in Bihar God should punish the sinners. What about the whole world? Do you consider Bihar only consists only of sinners, and the whole world consists of saints? And he has not guts neither a gentleman's attitude. He never returned any answer. I wrote a letter to his son: That whether you father -- because he was my friend -- I wrote to Ramdas, his son, that whether your father has received my letter or not? He said he has received, but he has no answer to give, so he is keeping quite.

These people are diverting things. Now bringing god into it. That God has punished homosexuals, then why God has not punished lesbians? -- you ask that fellow. Because no lesbian creates AIDS. In fact if women are intelligent, they should all become lesbians. That is the greatest safety for women, and then they will leave men to suffer from AIDS or whatsoever they want to do. And then we will see how God makes them punished. Because this is strange that homosexuals should suffer and lesbians be protected.

Q:* IF I COULD JUST SUMMARIZE YOUR RESPONSE.

A:* No. I will.... Exactly what I am saying is that AIDS is the ultimate outcome of a perversion. God has nothing to do with it....

Religion has nothing to exploit on its ground. It is a simple fact that has tremendous implications. One, that men and women, if not allowed freedom from marriage, then there is going to be perversion of many kinds, because monogamy is unnatural.

Q:* IT IS UNNATURAL FOR MEN?

A:* It is unnatural. No man is there who will not like to love many women. In fact, Soren Kirkegaard has a statement that, "I would like to make love to all the women of the earth. Still I don't think that I will be satisfied." And he is stating a very significant point. Religions have managed a certain kind of bondage between men and women. And they have created the idea of sin and guilt, so people cannot easily move from one relationship to another relationship.

In countries, for example, in the middle east, it is very difficult to make a contact with a woman -- even to see the face of a woman. And in the middle east homosexuality is very ancient. For the simple reason, because whenever a man wanted just to change his taste, women were not available. He had to look towards men or even towards animals. This is ugly.

If we make marriage dissolve -- for example, in my Commune marriage is just a game, like any other game. And every game has its rules so marriage has its rules. But no rules of any game are ultimate. We make them, we can change them....

In this Commune it is very easy to move from one woman to another, from one man to another, without creating any kind of scandal, without feeling any guilt, without creating any jealousy.

Q:* IN THE TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE, MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGE... YOU SAY THAT THAT LUST IS WITHIN THE INDIVIDUAL FOR DIFFERENT PARTNERS, DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES. SO THEN THE INDIVIDUAL IS TRYING TO CONTROL THESE DESIRES SO MUCH THEY MUST BE DISSIPATING A LOT OF ENERGY. THAT WOULD HAPPEN?

A:* It is. It is. The more monogamous a country is the more people will be repressed. And their repressiveness will become violence, war, homosexuality, prostitution, sodomy. It will take all kinds of forms, which will be difficult because they have already moved away from nature. If we want that the world should not end into such an ugly disease, marriage has to be dissolved, every religion has to drop the idea of celibacy -- because all those celibates are bound to become homosexuals.

All your popes, all your bishops, all your cardinals, all your priests of any religion, all your monks -- Buddhist, Christian, Hindu -- does not matter, because you have put man and women separately. There are monasteries where no woman has entered in one thousand years. Then those monks -- man is intelligent, he will try to find out some way for his repressed energy. Now what can you do? Just by an idea of celibacy, your biology does not change. Neither your blood changes its ways, nor your food, nor your hormones. Nothing changes by your idea of celibacy, your idea of celibacy is simply an idea. Your body knows nothing about it.

The body goes on creating semen. What you are going to do with that? How long you are going to repress it? And repressing it is a double wastage, because in repression you need much energy to repress your own energy. So you become a vicious circle. You cannot create anything so none of the monks of any religion have been creative of anything. They have not contributed anything to human civilization. They have been parasites, and they have created masturbation, homosexuality, lesbianism, sodomy....

Q:* THIS IS ALL THROUGH THE REPRESSION?

A:* It is all because of repression. Man's sexual energy should be allowed absolute freedom. It should be man's birthright.

Q:* ARE YOU TALKING MAN INCLUDING BOTH MEN AND WOMEN?

A:* Yes.

Q:* YOU PREDICTED THAT TWO-THIRDS OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION WOULD DIE BY AIDS. DO YOU STILL STAND BY THAT?

A:* Perhaps more, because there is nobody bothering to do anything about it....

Not a single step in any country is being taken to prevent it. On the contrary, every government is trying to repress the information about AIDS. Every individual who suffers from AIDS is trying to repress the information about it leaking into the public, because he will be condemned. If in a monastery you find that people are suffering from AIDS, that whole monastery and the whole religion will be condemned. So every vested interest is trying to repress information.

The disease is already widespread, and the problem is that it is not only by sexual intercourse that you can get it. You can get it by kissing somebody, because saliva is a carrier. Now kissing should be prohibited, completely, absolutely, with no exception. Tears carry it. If you kiss a woman and a tear comes to your mouth you can get it. And my understanding is: if tears and saliva can carry it, then perhaps soon they will discover perspiration also -- any liquid coming out of the body.

For the first time such a dangerous disease, so contagious, and which has no cure -- because basically it is not an ordinary disease. It is more an existential disease.

A man looses interest; in women, for any reason: religious, physical, medical, for any reason, legal, a man loses interest in women, becomes interested in men.

Soon he gets fed up with that, because in man and woman there is a contrast, a polarity, a attraction. Between man and man there is no polarity. It is just trying to create electricity with only positive poles, without negative pole.

Man and man making love simply means sexual energy will not be creative of life. Love making with a woman is healthy. In places where older people are not condemned for love making, people live longer. In countries like India, when even a person at the age of fifty starts feeling that, now, it is ugly, guilty, a sin, when your sons are married, to make love to your wife -- it is not right -- people die sooner.

In Caucasus Soviet Russia there are people who are one hundred seventy years old still making love. One hundred eighty years old people but you cannot call them old. Because they are still working in the farms just like any young man.

And my explanation is that in the Caucasus sex has never been repressed but has been appreciated, enjoyed, loved. In Caucasus it is exactly like the Eskimos: if you are a guest, the wife will be offered to you. Just as we offer food and a good room to the guest, the wife is also offered to you. It is not in any way thought to be immoral. Caucasus people live longer than any other people in the world.

And they are poorest people with no medical facilities, with not enough food.

My feeling is that man can live at least three hundred years if his energy is not disturbed and perverted, and he starts fighting with himself. That is very destructive. AIDS is just your own energy fighting with your energy (doesn't make sense here) has come to a balanced state: like Soviet Union and Russia. The balance is such that except death nothing can disturb it.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO GET TO ANOTHER QUOTE: YOU SAY THAT THAT'S HOW WE ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER THE WHOLE AMERICA. ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE TAKING OVER AMERICA IN THE SENSE OF CONTROLLING IT -- FOR EXAMPLE, THE GOVERNMENT, PHILOSOPHY OR JUST YOUR HAPPINESS?

A:* Just through our rejoicing, singing, dancing. We are gypsies and gypsies have their way of over conquering the world.

Q:* ARE YOU SENDING OUT A WARNING YOU MIGHT BE MOVING SOMEWHERE ELSE?

A:* Certainly, with my whole circus.... And tell Canada, it is not far away.

Q:* YOU JUST TOLD THEM. ARE YOU THE RINGMASTER OF THIS CIRCUS?

A:* Certainly.

Q:* WHEN YOU SAY: I HAVE THE ONLY RELIGION -- I'D LIKE TO GET BACK TO THAT. ARE YOU SAYING: I, BHAGWAN, HAVE THE ONLY RELIGION. OR ARE WE OUR OWN MASTERS, EACH OF US INDIVIDUALLY?

A:* No. Each individual here. When I say I, that is not my ego, that represents my whole people around the world. I am just their spokesman.

Q:* ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT'S WITHIN EACH INDIVIDUAL?

A:* No. When I say that this is the first and the last religion, the meaning is that all the religions up to now have not been scientific. They were all superstitious.

They were based on a certain belief system. Belief was basic. Now nobody can believe without repressing doubt. Belief is only repressing doubt. If there is no doubt there is no need for repressing belief. You don't believe in the sun. You don't believe in science, you don't believe in light. You know they are there so no belief is needed. All religions up to now have remained beliefs. That's why they have been called faiths.

Science for the first time, three hundred years before, started a new movement which was based on doubt. Just absolutely against belief. Go on doubting till you find something which is indoubtable. That's my approach too. I am trying religion to have a scientific base.

Science inquires into objects, religion inquires into our own subjectivity. But the method need not be different. The same scientific observation, I call it witnessing:

very alert, just go on inquiring within yourself, without any belief, without any prejudice. If you have courage enough to go without any prejudice, if you have courage enough to go without any belief system, soon you will stumble upon truth. It is there within you.

I say this is the first religion, because this is the first scientific approach towards man's interiority. And I say that this is the last also because there is no other possibility. There are only two possibilities: either belief or doubt. Hence, I say this is the last because you cannot do anything else. Either you believe or you doubt. If you believe you will never know the truth. If you doubt, persistently, and go on doubting, you are bound to find it. And when doubt finds something, that is no more belief, that is no more faith. That is your experience. You can stand by it. You need not go Jesus or Buddha. You need not take support from bible or Koran. You are your own authority.

So when I say this is the first and the last religion, I am not saying about Tom, Dick and Harry. I am simply stating a fact: that no religion up to now has tried doubt as its basic method. This is the first religion. And I am also calling it the last for the simple reason that there is nothing else that can be done. Only two things are possible and I have done the second thing. First all the other religion have done, and failed.

Q:* CLAIRVOYANCE, TO BE ABLE TO SEE INTO THE FUTURE -- IS THAT A REALITY?

A:* No.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOUR COMMENTS ABOUT PEOPLE THAT TRANSCHANNEL, WHAT THEY CLAIM TO BE, SPIRIT ENTITIES?

A:* Just they are crazy, surrounded by idiots.

Q;* SO SOMEBODY LIKE EDGAR CAYCE, THE SLEEPING PROPHET.

A:* Just rubbish.

Q:* WHERE DOES IT COME FROM? IT WOULD APPEAR TO BE LEGITIMATE, SOMETHING HAPPENS. IS IT ALL FROM THE MIND?

A:* It is all psychic. Just mind.

Q:* CAN YOU GIVE ME SOME COMMENTS ON SOME PEOPLE HERE:

RONALD REAGAN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

A:* Just a third-rate cowboy, film actor.

Q:* ARE YOU AWARE OF THE PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA, BRIAN MULRONEY?

A:* No. I have never heard about that fellow.

Q:* YOU HAVEN'T?

A:* He's fortunate.

Q:* WHAT'S A TYPICAL DAY LIKE FOR YOU?

A:* My daily life is just a constant bliss. Everything is blissful: eating, sleeping, talking, just sitting silently doing nothing. Everything to me is meditation. Sitting under my shower it is meditation, eating my food, it is meditation. Because I am always the witness. Even in sleep I am a witness. I know that I am sleeping. So it is, in a way, the same witness, but enjoying different things, different scenes.

And because I never think of the past or of the future, nothing bores me because I -- you can go on giving me the same food every day and I will enjoy it the same way every day. My sannyasins who work in my kitchens, they get bored.

Q:* ARE YOU VEGETARIAN?

A:* Yes, I am vegetarian.

Q:* IS DIET IMPORTANT TO AWAKEN?

A:* No. It is not important, but once you are awakened, it is difficult to destroy life for your food. So before enlightenment it is not important, but after enlightenment it is immensely important.

Q:* WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE DRUG PROBLEM IN THE NORTH AMERICA SOCIETY -- COCAINE USAGE, MARIJUANA?

A:* In fact, all the governments should help the scientists to find better drugs with lesser side effects, rather than repressing drugs. It is stupid. Whenever you start stopping something you give great importance to it, and particularly to the youth. It becomes a provocation. The government is responsible for all young people who are being destroyed by drugs. There is no need.

In my birthplace, just in front of me, my house, there was a beautiful temple. I persuaded the priest of the temple that because of the big wall around the campus, people used that wall as urinated place, and it was in such a space where you can sit down. Nobody will be seeing you. So you write down on the wall in big letters that pissing here is absolutely prohibited. He, of course, was convinced. Before that nobody had pissed. After that you could count lines of people. The priest was very angry. He came to my father and said, "Your boy is dangerous. I have never seen people queueing, and when I ask them they said, `Just because you have written it, immediately the idea arises.'" Any prohibition is dangerous. But the Christian God started the whole stupid thing by prohibiting Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge and the tree of life. Now in the Garden of Eden there must have been millions of trees. If God has not prohibited about those two trees, I don't think even now we would have found it. It was impossible. But prohibiting it, and then dumping the whole thing on the poor snake, the serpent -- God had done it already. He provoked.

All these governments should make an effort that better drugs are available, which give you more euphoria, more joy, and no side effects. Now science is capable of doing it.

Q:* BUT YOU DON'T ALLOW DRUGS HERE ON RAJNEESHPURAM.

A:* No.

Q:* BUT YOU ARE SAYING OUTSIDE OF RAJNEESHPURAM, IT'S OKAY?

A:* No. I am saying these drugs are not okay. And the reason is because governments are prohibiting. Otherwise science could have figured out very easily. LSD can be more purified, and it should be made available without prescription, through medical stores, through hospitals. In fact, every hospital should have a room. Anybody who wants a drug experience, under medical care, he should be given it, because it is worth having. And i think that is the only way to take away that whole charm away from drugs.

In India they have tried many times to prohibit alcohol. And each time they prohibit it, many more people start drinking. And they drink wrong kind of alcohol, because it is made by people themselves. All kinds of poisonous accidents happen. Thousands of people die. Because they have drunk something they knew nothing about. Again and again the same stupidity. Then they withdraw the prohibition and the percentage of people drinking alcohol falls immediately. In fact, the way you have made the society, people are so miserable that they need something to forget what is happening to their life, what their wife is doing to them, what their boss is doing to them, what their husband is doing to them, what their children are doing to them. They need, those poor people need something, at least to have a few hours of relaxation.

My people do not need. That's why I don't allow here. We have better methods.

Our meditations are nothing but drugs -- perfect drugs, without any chemicals in them. A man who can meditate will not be able to enjoy the drug, any drug.

Because, his meditation gives him so much peace and the drug will disturb it.

Drug never gives you anything. If you are too much disturbed, then the drug relaxes you. But if you are at the peak of your bliss, drug will relax you down. So people who live in the valleys need drugs. People who live on the peaks don't need. Our people don't need.

It is not because of any government law that we are prohibiting people not to bring drugs in. It is because of our own people. They don't need it. In fact it is destructive of their meditation, their love, their joy. The drug makes them dull, stupid -- takes away the sharpness of their intelligence. But what I am saying about the outside world is that governments should emphasize the fact that it is a tremendous problem.

Sending young people to imprisonment does not help. You simply destroy those young people. You destroy their education. And I have not seen a single person who has been imprisoned, has been changed. He comes out, and again back to the drugs. Now he comes out more professional than he had gone in the prison.

Because there are experts already inside the prison who know more about drugs.

He was just an amateur. From all those people he gets ideas of other drugs that you will get in Kabul, Manali, in Katmandu, in Goa. Where you will get the real thing. There is no need for all this nonsense. Courts are involved, jails are involved, young people are destroyed. It is the duty of every government to provide people with some kind of relaxation, some kind of peace, some kind of silence. If you cannot provide meditation, at least you can provide medicine. To me drugs should be medicine. And if we want, we can change all bad effects. It can become a healthy thing. Each Sunday morning, rather than go to the church, you just go on a trip.

Q:* THANK YOU VERY MUCH.