Chapter 25

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

A: I will make the simple ones also controversial.

Q: SEVERAL NEWSPAPERS IN NEW YORK, UNITED STATES, REPORTED THAT THE NUMBER OF RAJNEESHEES WORLDWIDE ARE DECLINING, AND THAT YOU'RE SLOWLY RUNNING OUT OF RESOURCES. NOW AFTER SEVERAL YEARS OF SILENCE YOU HAVE STARTED TALKING AGAIN, YOU STARTED GIVING INTERVIEWS, YOU STARTED TO TALK WITH THE DISCIPLES. IS THIS PART OF A MEMBERSHIP DRIVE, OR IS IT JUST YOUR WISH TO COMMUNICATE?

A: In the first place, sannyasins are increasing all over the world, so there is no question of their decrease. Secondly, I don't believe in converting anybody. I believe that the very effort to convert somebody is trespassing his freedom, his being.

I can say what I want to say, but there is no effort to convert anybody to sannyas.

In my whole life, I have never converted a single person to sannyas. Although there are one million sannyasins around the world, they have all come to me on their own accord. And I am against all kinds of missionary work, conversion, making people Christians, or Hindus or Mohammedans. Every individual has the right to be himself.

I can say to the person -- not as an authority, that I am the only begotten son of God, so you have to believe me, and until you believe me, you are lost. If you

believe in me, you are saved. These strategies are simply cunning, political, playing on man's fear and greed. Exploiting man, taking advantage of his innocence, ignorance.

I am against the whole company of messiahs, prophets, founders of religions. A single man has declared war against all the religions of the world. I am fighting with every argument that they have proposed for thirty-five years continuously, and they have not been able to support any of their dogma, and they have not been able to answer any of my questions.

So the people who have come to me have come out of their own freedom, intelligence. They could understand me, what I am saying, and they could see the fallacy that I was showing them. But unless somebody comes to me, asks for sannyas, I am in no way going to interfere into his fundamental right of being himself. Right or wrong -- that does not matter -- who am I to decide what is right for him, what is wrong for him?

I can say how I have found my bliss, my joy. That's all. If your heart starts feeling with me, if your heart starts beating with me, and a desire for adventure arises in you for new spaces, new ecstasies, I am available. Not as a leader, but only as a friend.

This is for the first time that one million people have gathered around a man who claims no miracles, who claims no authority, who claims no speciality -- who only claims that he is a friend. And if you enjoy my friendship, you are welcome. The moment you feel that our paths now separate, I give you my heartfelt blessings, the same way as I had given to you when you had come to me.

Nobody is prevented from going. Nobody is pushed, manipulated to come in. I have started speaking for my own reasons. I do everything according to my own reasons. I never bother about the world around me, and I don't care at all. For three years I was silent because I wanted few people who were wrongly hanging around me because they were intellectually convinced -- and that is not really to be with me -- I wanted to get rid of those people. But I am not rude to anybody. I have never said to anybody come in, I have never said to anybody to go out. But I have my own devices.

Three and a half years of silence was enough for them, they could not stand it.

They were interested in words, they were interested in my theories, they were interested in my arguments -- their approach was intellectual. They dropped out.

The moment I saw that the wrong people had dropped, I have started speaking again. Now I am speaking to those people who do not expect me even to speak.

In three and a half year silence they were with me with the same joy. If I was going to remain silent forever, they were going to be with me with the same joy.

Now it is a question deeper than intellect. It is more close to a love affair. You don't think about it -- suddenly you know you are in love, suddenly your whole being starts feeling a dance, suddenly you start whistling, you want to sing.

If something like this happens to anybody around me, then only he is with me, my fellow traveler. So I have sorted out the people politely, given them the opportunity to leave on their own accord so I need not have to tell them to go away because they are with me for wrong reasons.

Logic is a game. If two persons discuss something and one person wins the discussion, that does not mean that what he is saying is truth. All that it means is that he has more logical argumentative calibre than the other one. The other one may be the truth. The defeated one may have the truth, but is not articulate enough. So truth cannot be decided by logic, argumentation. Its decision is something deeper -- it is of the heart in the beginning, and in the end it is of the being itself.

So now I am speaking to my own people, and now I can open my whole heart to them without even bothering to argue what I am saying. Without giving any evidence, any proofs. They know me, that until it is something that is going to help them, I am not going to say it. It is not a question of right and wrong. It is a question of helping them on the path.

So now I have my people around the world. They are increasing every day, because I am the only alternative in the whole world against all the religions and against all the politicians. Against all nations and against all races -- I am the only alternative. I stand for the simple human being -- I don't want him to be German, I don't want him to be African, I don't want him to be American or Russian, I don't want him to be Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Buddhist, Mohammedan. All these are meaningless.

History is full of all this nonsense, and because of this, man has stopped growing thousands of years before. I want man to be completely clean of the past, so he can become available totally to the present and to the future.

The numbers of sannyasins will be increasing every day faster and faster. For two reasons: The politicians are creating the situations -- I am not converting anybody. The politicians are creating the situation in which, if they succeed, this whole beautiful life on the earth will be destroyed. And the politicians can disappear only if nations disappear. War can disappear only if nations disappear.

My people belong to no nation. They claim the right of the whole earth.

The religious leaders, on the other hand, have led people to a very dangerous disease: AIDS. Politicians have come to the nuclear weapons, that is their logical end: and religious leaders have come to AIDS.

AIDS is a by-product of monasteries, nunneries and the preachers who have been telling people to remain celibate. If you put people, man in one place confined, women in another place confined, you are preparing the ground for homosexuality. Nobody can be celibate, it is against nature. It is against your physiology, against your biology, against your chemistry. So just taking a vow of celibacy is not going to change the whole program of your biochemistry. Then your biology will find some roundabout way -- that's what perversion is.

And that homosexuality has ultimately culminated into this disease AIDS which is going to take over the whole world like wildfire. Only my communes will be the refuge, because only my communes, I am trying to destroy all kinds of perversions and bringing people back to nature, to their natural being, respecting their bodies, loving their bodies. And trying to understand that sex is natural only with the opposite pole.

A man and woman can only create authentic orgasm. All other ways of orgasm are just phoney, and in the name of orgasm, nothing is achieved, cannot be achieved.

Against nuclear weapons, I am the alternative because I am creating meditative people, silent people, peaceful people who do not want to destroy this earth.

And against AIDS I am creating communes all over the world like oases where people will be back into the garden of Eden from where that idiot God pushed them out.

Q: IN ONE OF THE INTERVIEWS, YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU WANT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD. I THINK IT WAS A TV STATION HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

A: I am taking over it. I am already on the way, but my ways of taking over the world are not that (those) of Adolf Hitler or Alexander the Great. Those idiots have failed so badly that no intelligent person can try to take over the world in their way. I have my own way.

My way is to create more and more loving, peaceful, silent people around the world. That's my; empire, but in my empire, everybody is an emperor. Nobody is a slave.

I am taking over the world. There is no other way for humanity to survive. Soon the people who are hostile to me will be begging that they should be allowed in the commune, because in the outside society if it is found they have AIDS, they are going to be condemned the way lepers were condemned in the past. Lepers were not allowed to live in the cities, they had to live outside. They could not move in the daylight, they had to move in the night. They could not take water from the well of the town -- they had a separate well outside the city. And leprosy is not such a dangerous thing.

There has never been anything more dangerous than AIDS. So anybody who has a little intelligence, then the politicians and the religious leaders are pushing him to become a sannyasin. I don't need to go for conversion. They are pushing people toward me.

Q: THAT WILL BE IN THE END THE ONLY WAY TO SURVIVE?

A: This is the only way -- not in the end -- right now, in the beginning, because in the end.... It is all finished.

Q: YOU IDENTIFY YOURSELF, HOWEVER, AS A RELIGIOUS LEADER....

A: No.

Q: WHAT ARE YOU, THEN?

A: Just a simple human being, just like you -- with a little difference that your eyes are closed and my eyes are open. But you can open your eyes any moment and the difference disappears. Or, I may close my eyes.... Just that much difference, nothing much.

First I will try to open your eyes but if I feel that everybody wants to sleep, then why I should bother? I should go to sleep myself! I don't take anything seriously.

Leaders are serious people, taking the responsibility of the flock. And that's why I call them names, because I cannot find worse condemnations for these people.

Jesus I call crackpot, a mental case, a man with a wish to die. And his whole life is a life of a schizophrenic. The behavior is enough proof -- he curses a fig tree -- can you thing of why a man sane should curse a fig tree because there are no figs on it? And it was not the season for figs! The poor fig tree, what can she do? But he was angry because he had come from a village where people had refused to give food to him and to his twelve fools that he used to call apostles. And they were all hungry and tired, and then they came to the fig tree and there were no fruits.

And this man talks about: Love your enemy. Even love your neighbor, which is even more difficult than loving your enemy. I can love the enemy very easily because there is so much distance between the enemy and me, but to love the neighbor is just like loving your wife. .

This man is talking about love, this man is talking about compassion, kindness and he is not compassionate to the poor fig tree. And anybody cursing a tree, what do you think about him? If I call him a crackpot, nothing is wrong in it. he was absolutely insane.

He interfered with people's ways of life. For example, in the temple of Jerusalem where money changers have been doing that kind of business for centuries, since the time of Moses when the temple was built. And in fact those money changers were of tremendous help to the land and to the people, because with all the donations that came to the temple, those money changers were giving loans to poor people on a very nominal interest. And Jesus goes and throws their tables and pushes them with a whip out of the temple, and he says that this is my father's house and I will not allow anybody to pollute it with money.

Now this man has no proof that he is the son of God. There are many mad people around the world who think they are son of God, they are prophet, they are messiahs, and they are all in mental asylums. They also don't have any proof.

What proof Jesus has? Any certificate from God, any, message stamped by God,

signed by God? What proof he has got -- just a poor carpenter's son. That too is not certain whether his father was his father.

Q: BUT YOU ARE BHAGWAN, YOU ARE THE ENLIGHTENED ONE. ARE YOU PERFECT?

A: No. The Enlightened One simply means one who has come to know himself.

That's all.

The prophet dominates. He predicts. He gives you doctrines, theologies. You have to believe in him -- he himself cannot prove anything about hell or heaven or God, all are fictions -- but if all are fictions, his being a prophet flops because then without those fictions, how he can be the prophet? If there is no God, then how Jesus can claim that I am the only begotten son of God?

So these prophets are trying to keep all the fictions, all the lies, because amongst those lies they can declare themselves to be a prophet. And the people who can believe in a God no one has ever seen, the people who can believe in hell and heaven no one has come back to give us a little detail about these places, are gullible. Any cunning person, a little articulate can declare himself a prophet and these people will believe him because believing is all that they know. And if he is the type of Jesus, so angry that he throws single-handedly all the money changers out of the temple and declares that it is my father's house and I am going to clean it of all impurities, naturally the gullible will see and believe in him.

I am not a prophet because I don't have any consolation for anybody, and I don't have any hope for anybody. I don't sell opium to people, and that is the basic function of a prophet -- he is a dope dealer.

The messiahs are trying to save the whole humanity. They have not been able to save themselves. Now Jesus must have been a fanatic idiot. Even on the cross he still believes that he is going to be saved by God, but when he sees that time is passing, blood is oozing, he is thirsty, he shouts at the sky.

The sky is empty, no answer comes. Never any answer has come from the sky.

Millions of people have been praying -- no prayer has been answered. Jesus shouts, almost angry, frustrated, that: Have you forsaken me? He is talking to God. He was still believing that God will come sitting on a white cloud with angels playing on their harps singing alleluja. Nobody came, nothing happened.

People simply laughed at the stupidity of the man -- even on the cross, he has not come back to sanity.

And upon his crucifixion the whole Christianity is based. That's why cross has become its symbol: I call it "crossianity." I don't call it Christianity, it has nothing to do with Christ. Its whole thing is the cross, and the cross is a symbol of death.

So I don't say that Reverend Jim Jones did anything which goes against Jesus. he simply followed him to the very logical end. Jesus was saying to people: soon I will go and prepare ground for you and soon you will all be coming, and you

will be with me and with God the Father in paradise. Reverend Jones, of course, was an American and believed in speed and he knew that 2,000 years have passed and the "soon" is not finished yet. It seems a different time scale exists in paradise, so he did not want to take any chance -- he took all his followers with him. Why bother coming back and then take them.

Reverend Jones is just part of the whole Christian attitude, but strange it is that Christians started condemning that man.

Q: A LOT OF EX-SANNYASINS LEFT YOU DISAPPOINTED -- MAYBE IN THAT PROCESS WHEN YOU DECIDED NOT TO TALK ANY MORE -- AND SOME FELT AND VOICED THEIR CONCERN PUBLICLY THAT YOU EXPLOIT YOUR FOLLOWERS TO SUSTAIN AN EXTRAVAGANT LIFESTYLE.

YOUR FORMER ITALIAN COOK, DEEKSHA, CALLED YOU A LIAR IN THE OREGONIAN; YOUR FORMER BODY GUARD SHIVAMURTI SAID YOU ARE DISHONEST -- I THINK IT WAS IN THE OREGONIAN, AS WELL. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THESE PEOPLE PERSONALLY? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO THEM?

A: I love them still, the same as I have always loved them; and what they are saying is not wrong. I have never said that I never lie. If a lie is helpful, I am the first person to lie immediately.

Truth is not a value to me. Helping those people who have come to me in every possible way -- and they are all asleep, they cannot understand the language of the one who is awake.

So every enlightened person has lied and, of course, they did not have the guts to say so. I don't have any problem in accepting the truth that I lie. The whole question is: What helps to wake you up? For example, if you are not waking up, I can lie and shout in your ears that your house is on fire. It is not on fire, but what to do? Hearing that your house is on fire you jump out of the bed and you wake up, and then I can say I am sorry that I had to lie, but there was no other way to wake you up.

Q: HOW FAR WOULD YOU GO TO WAKE SOMEBODY UP?

A: To the very end. I don't believe in half-hearted things. Anything I can do will be total, so if Deeksha says that I lie, she is perfectly right. There is nothing wrong in it. She is not condemning me.

Q: WELL, SHE TOLD THE OREGONIAN REPORTERS THAT SHE HAS TO HIDE FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS NOW.

A: That is up to her, and you have to ask her what she said, and why she said.

How can I answer for her? I can answer for myself. About anything she has said

about me, I am ready to answer; but about anything else that she says, she is answerable, I am not.

If Shiva says that I am dishonest, he is right. To me everything can be used as a device to wake people who are fast asleep, unconscious. To me it is just a game.

If honesty helps, good; if it does not help, dishonesty will do.

And I love those people who have left. The reason must be in themselves. If they say they left disappointed, that means they have some appointment with me?

Certainly, unconsciously they must be hoping that some expectations will be fulfilled by me, and I don't fulfill anybody's expectations.

Those who can remain with me without any expectations, only they are capable to understand me and capable to understand the work that I am doing. These people, if they feel disappointed (it) simply means they had come with a certain idea, hope, desire -- and I fulfill nobody's desire. I teach desirelessness. I don't fulfill anybody's hope.

You must have seen the Christians have put a board outside my commune that those who enter here, drop all your hopes forever. That's perfectly true. They are doing my work.

Q: DO THEY KNOW THAT?

A: They don't know -- this is the difficulty. That's why I call these people idiots!

So anybody who leaves me, leaves on his own responsibility. Anybody who joins with me joins on his own responsibility. So if you see these people, tell them that since I don't take anybody's responsibility and I don't promise you any hope, then the whole frustration is your own making. I am not a party to it.

I have never claimed that I am an honest person. I have never claimed that I always speak the truth. Even under oath, you cannot manipulate me to say anything that I don't want to say. I will say only the thing that I want to say.

So all these allegations they think are allegations -- I don't think so. By saying such things against me they are simply showing that for its ten years or eleven years they were with me, they could not understand a single word of mine. They are simply saying that they are retarded, their minds are not more than thirteen years of age. Their physical age may be anywhere, but their minds are stuck at the thirteen. If they don't believe me they should go to a psychoanalist and let themselves be examined that how much is their mental age.

With me only people who have tremendous intelligence can stay. I am not Jesus.

With Jesus all those twelve uneducated, illiterate fishermen, farmers, woodcutters, carpenters -- those were his disciples, not a single learned rabbi was convinced. That is very strange because he was a Jew. he was fulfilling, long awaited prophecies of the Jews for a messiah. In fact, they should have rejoiced that our days of waiting are over and he has come.

But not a single educated person was converted by Jesus. He could manage only with fishermen and woodcutter, uneducated, illiterate people. It was a kind of

bribery and exploitation because he promised them: If you believe in me I am going to take you to paradise. Naturally those fishermen, woodcutters have never thought that they would ever be able to make -- rabbis, great scholars, saints, prophets, they will enter into paradise -- and this guy is saying that if we just believe in him, we will be the first to enter. So what is the problem, we are not losing anything. he says simply believe in me, so we will believe.

But no intelligent person can do that. In my people you will find just the opposite. My commune must be the only place in the whole world with so much education -- almost everybody is a graduate from some university. Most of them have masters degrees, few have PhD degrees, few are D.Litts. They come from all professions -- they are not fishermen and farmers.

They people who have left me -- for example, Deeksha; she is illiterate, she would have fitted with Jesus perfectly well, but not with me. She could not understand me. She was a good cook, but being a good cook you don't become enlightened. Shiva -- what intelligence he has got? If it took him ten years sitting by my side -- he was always sitting by my side -- if it took him ten years to discover that I am a dishonest man... then do you think I have to answer anything?

Q: LET ME GO INTO THE NEXT QUESTION, IF I MAY.

A: Go anywhere!

Q: THE IMMIGRATION SERVICE OF THE UNITED STATES TRIES DESPERATELY TO DEPORT YOU. WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO RAJNEESHPURAM IF YOU WOULD HAVE TO GO?

A: No, I never think of tomorrow. I am here right now, and we are enjoying! And for four years they have been trying desperately top deport me. If in four years they could not find a single reason to deport me, I don't think in forty years they are going to find it.

Four years is (are) enough against a single individual; and a whole department is continuously working. Their people are going around the world to find something so I can be deported. They will find that this is the most difficult case that has come to them.

I am going to fight up to the Supreme Court.

Q: BUT YOU HAVE SAID DURING THE PRESS CONFERENCE SEVERAL WEEKS AGO THAT YOU WOULD GO TO AUSTRALIA.

A: That was just to visit. And if I love it there, then the same problem will be in Australia. Wherever I am the problem is going to be the same, so I don't care

about it whether the INS in America is trying to deport me, or INS in Australia trying to deport me. What difference does it make to me?

Q: BUT IT WOULD MAKE DIFFERENCE TO RAJNEESHPURAM, WOULDN'T IT?

A: Nobody can destroy Rajneeshpuram. If they succeed -- in the first place they cannot succeed, because I have applied on five grounds. They have only six ground. I can do the sixth, too. They have six grounds for application. For five grounds I am capable. They cannot deny on any grounds. Sixth is marriage -- I can do that, too. With as many women as they want!

So it is just out of (the) question. They cannot deport me, they simply will get crazy and cracks and retired, and I am going to be here.

And if -- just for the argument's sake -- if I decide to go, they cannot deport me, but if I decide to go, they cannot stop me, either. Let them know it. They are absolutely impotent either way. If I decide to go, they cannot prevent me. And If I go, that does not mean that the commune will be in any way harmed or wounded.

I have prepared my people that without me they can exist as beautifully as they are existing with me. Because I have not taken any responsibility. You should see the point: I have not taken any responsibility. I am not responsible for anything in the commune. I am just a guest. I am not even a member of the commune, I am not a sannyasin. I don't have any responsibility that they will miss me.

I don't do anything; in fact, they have to do everything for me. If I am gone, they should really rejoice, and my being here is a constant trouble for them. Once I am gone from here, nobody is going to bother them.

And I have my communes all around the world -- without me they are running exactly the same way, so there is no problem at all. INS or American government, or any government cannot create any problem for me. I can create thousand and one problems for them.

The moment I decide to create problems, they will be at a loss to find how to tackle with me. Up to now, I have not created any problem.

Q: WHAT PROBLEMS WOULD YOU CREATE, FOR EXAMPLE?

A: I can create any problem. For example, I can go to the Supreme Court that the whole American government is functioning against (the) American constitution.

And I stand for (the) American constitution, and the whole American government is against it. And I have grounds to fight how they are exploiting and deceiving people.

The state government of Oregon is doing the same. They accepted this city, incorporated it, everything was done according to the constitution. For two years the city was legal. We were getting the support of the state, the federal

government support to the city -- and after two years, suddenly the city became illegal.

Then who is responsible? All those people who make this city legal should be immediately arrested and imprisoned. The governor is part in it. The attorney general is part in it. What these idiots were doing for two years? They were giving state support, money, everything to the city. What the federal government was doing? They were giving money to the city.

And idiots can go in such a berserk way about everything, that I don't think they have given much. (To Sheela, off mike:) How many dollars from the federal government have we received?

SHEELA: ABOUT $32,000 LAST YEAR FROM FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I THINK IT'S ABOUT THAT MUCH.

Bhagwan: That is nothing. I cannot even purchase one-third of a Rolls Royce.

And these idiots are now asking the money back! In the first place they did wrong. They gave that money to a city which was not legal. They are responsible for it. In the second place, they have guts to ask the money back. From whom?

The city does not exist. You gave money to a non-existent city, so go and ask the holy ghost if he knows anything about it!

Q: THE PRINCE OF HANOVER WAS ONE OF YOUR FAVORITE SANNYASINS. HE WAS VERY ILL, AND THERE IS A RUMOR THAT YOU ASKED TO CUT THE OXYGEN TO SHORTEN HIS SUFFERING. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE TO DIE IN INDIVIDUAL CASES?

A: That rumor is absolutely wrong. Do you think if the rumor had any evidence then the royal family of Germany would have remained silent? And the father of the Prince, the mother of the Prince were present at the funeral in India. The brother of the Prince was there, the wife of the Prince was there, the daughter of the Prince was there.

If the rumor has any validity, then the Prince of Hanover, his sannyas name was Vimalkirti. He was related to almost all the royalties of Europe. Prince of Wales is his cousin-brother. His mother is Princess of Greece. First she had married the Prince of Denmark, and then she divorced him and married Vimalkirti's father.

His mother's sister is a queen -- perhaps in Spain or somewhere.

All these royalties against a poor man like me? Could not do anything if the rumor had any evidence in it? Just their being silent is enough proof that all this is nonsense. So as far as Vimalkirti's death is concerned, the rumor is simply a rumor.

So please don't get confused about my idea, my approach about the death of an individual. My way of life accepts that every individual has the birthright to et

out of life if he wants. Death is not something that should be in the control of government, law. It is an individual freedom.

If I don't want to live in this body anymore, nobody can prevent me. And in fact, even though all the governments and all the legal systems are against it, suicide goes on happening every day. And it is such a amusing phenomenon, that if a person is caught redhanded committing suicide, then he is sentenced to death.

Because he was trying to commit suicide! What kind if lawmakers we have? He was trying to commit suicide, now you are making arrangements for his death.

He should have come in the first place to you -- that I am going to commit suicide, please kill me. Why I should unnecessarily take the risk of falling from a tree, getting broken legs, hanging myself from the ceiling, feeling suffocated, but not dying, jumping into a river -- but because I know swimming, getting out of it? Why should I, or anybody should take all these difficulties.

So as far as philosophical opinion is concerned, I am for individual's total freedom -- death included. And it is the duty of the community to provide him beautiful facilities for death. Why one should wait for old age and the troubles of old age, the degradation of old age, the rejection of the young people, the old person feeling constantly an unnecessary thing in the house, a burden to everybody? He is not capable to do anything for them, and they have to do everything for them. All his companions are dead, his friends are dead. He goes to the same park where he used to go and sit with his friends -- now he sits alone on the bench, nobody comes near him. Mostly he is sick in the bed. And if that person wants then it is simply ludicrous just to wait for death to come.

And this death is going to be terrible, because he will be old, sick and he will die by and by, inch by inch, and we have now every scientific way to send him joyously into deep sleep forever.

If you and your society cannot give a man a beautiful life, at least you can arrange for him a beautiful death. And if he wants, it is his birthright. And anyway, anyone who wants to go out of life will find the way, so why unnecessarily create a legal system against? He will find a way. The people who fail in committing suicide are really people who are hesitant -- 50/50. In fact, they have a split mind. One part says it is good to get out of life, another part shrinks back and feels afraid. This inner conflict is the cause of their failure.

Otherwise, I don't see that there is any way to prevent me from dying. There are so many million possibilities all around.

So you cannot prevent, and you think the penalty has to be an electric chair?

Why you could not provide that beautiful electric chair before? The man would have said goodbye to his friends, enjoyed the best meal that he always wanted to, but because of sickness and old age and diabetes, he was not allowed. He can have beautiful ice cream, now there is no problem. He is going to the electric chair, he can have champagne. One day of absolute freedom because there is no tomorrow anymore. So he need not worry about his blood sugar going high, his blood pressure going high, or he is getting drunk and doing something stupid.

Who cares now? At least one day give him total freedom and let him die. Help....

Your medical hospitals, all the hospitals in the world should have a beautiful place for those who want to die.

He can be taught even on the last day how to be silent, how to relax, so when you are given the injection which will take you deep and deep into sleep, you don't fight it. Otherwise, you will be in suffering. This can be simply explained.

He can practice beforehand, do a little rehearsal. And I am ready to provide to every hospital one of my sannyasins to teach meditation. And his room for death should be a temple, beautiful, with flowers and with everything. He should go from this earth like a king. Just resting, relaxing and going forever into deep sleep.

When we can manage it, I don't think we should prevent it. And, anyway, it is going to help world population problem immensely because 1,000 people are dying every day in Ethiopia.

Out of hunger when one dies, it is real torture. Out of thirst one dies, it is a torture of days together. Why not they should be given injections which is simple, so they can relax and die and be reborn in America? Because they all want, all over the world, the poor people think America is the paradise on the earth. So if they died with the idea of being born in America, great; let them die with the idea, and let them be born there.

I am perfectly in favor of freedom, and death is only one part of my whole idea of freedom.

Q: HOW DO YOU SPEND YOUR DAY?

A: Have I to spend it?

Q: HOW DO YOU SPEND IT?

A: No, I am asking you -- have I to spend it? I live it! Spending is not a right word. Life is not money, you don't spend it. Otherwise, one day you may go bankrupt. No, I live it and I live it intensely.

Each moment of my life is a blessing. Whatever I am doing, I do it to the very climax. I don't believe in Gautam Buddha and his middle path. Gautam Buddha was teaching the middle path, I teach the extreme. If you are enjoying, what will be the middle path? 50/50? 50 percent enjoying, 50 percent in despair.

When I am taking my bath, I enjoy it as much as I have enjoyed my enlightenment, not in any way different.

And one and half hour in the morning, one and half hour in the evening -- three hours I am in the bathroom. And it is tremendously meditative, silent, beautiful just to lie down in the hot water and play with bubbles. I don't play with anything else.

Q: HOW IMPORTANT IS SEX FOR YOU?

A: Not at all. Just fun.

Q: YOU SAY THAT RAJNEESHEE IS THE ONLY RELIGION WHO CAN REALLY FREE THE PEOPLE. INDIAN OFFICIALS SAID TWO YEARS AGO ACCORDING TO SEVERAL NEWSPAPERS HERE THAT YOUR ORGANIZATION DOES NOT RESEMBLE A RELIGION. DOES THIS HURT YOU PERSONALLY, OR DO YOU FEEL ANY REMORSE ABOUT THIS?

A: No. There is no problem. In fact, that is what I am saying -- that my people don't resemble any people who have ever lived on the earth. They don't resemble any old religion. Neither do we want to be categorized with those insane theologies. It is a totally new phenomenon.

Q: YOU SAID ONCE THAT YOUR RELIGION WILL DIE WITH YOU. WILL YOU NOT ASK ANYBODY TO CONTINUE FOR YOU -- PERHAPS SHEELA, PERHAPS ANOTHER PERSON, LAXMI, OR AN ORGANIZATION FOR YOU?

A: Nobody. It is up to them whatever they want to do when I am gone. Do you see the politics in the whole idea of successors? That even when I am gone I will control through Sheela the commune. Because I have trained Sheela I can trust her, and she will remain in control. Then she prepares somebody else. And in a subtle way, though I am dead, I am controlling the living people. No, I cannot be so inhuman. While I am here, rejoice with me. When I am gone, you are intelligent enough, whatever you want to do, do. I am not going to declare anybody as my successor, and I am not going to say to my people what you have to do when I am gone.

Just look at it from the other side: People only see one side always they ask me "When you are gone," but you don't ask me when I am gone, you are gone as far as I am concerned. The world is dead. The moment I am dead, for me the whole world is dead. Now who bothers about a dead world? It is not one-sided death, that I am only dying. I am disappearing to you, you are disappearing to me. It is equal, equal death on both the sides. And I have no desire to control. I don't control even while I am living. But these people, for example, John the Baptist, baptizes Jesus, initiates him as his successor. This is a subtle strategy. Then Jesus appoints these twelve apostles as his messengers. And out of all that, by and by, the popes come in and for 2000 years, these people have been torturing.

The whole responsibility goes on Jesus, or even on John the Baptist. There is no need. I was not in the world one day, and the world has been here for millennia.

Nobody asks me: "Bhagwan, what have You done when You were not here for the world?" Nobody asks that question. It is as relevant as the other question.

One is about the past, when I was not here; one is about the future when I will

not be here. But both are absolutely meaningless. I am here -- that is the only place; and I am now, that is the only time. And I don't care anything. I am not going to write a will that somebody should be my successor.

There is no need. I give freedom, I don't give bondage like a Catholic church. In Spain just a few days before, the government has legalized abortion. Had to legalize because the population is destroying the whole economy of the country.

Reluctantly, they legalized abortion, and now the church is fighting against it.

And Spain is a fanatic country. They are protesting and they are saying that anybody who goes for abortion will be expelled from to Catholic religion.

These people can't see that who are you to dominate the whole world and its troubles and miseries and sufferings? On the one hand you go on saying we are here for your salvation, and whatever you do is just to create more misery for people. I do not belong to this mafia gang of popes, shankaracharyas, ayatollah Khomeini. I do not belong to these people.

My approach is very simple: while I am here, I will sing my song, I will have my dance, and when I am gone, I am gone.

Q: IN AN INTERVIEW WITH AN AMERICAN NEWSPAPER, YOUR FORMER RANCH MANAGER BOB HARVEY, SAID THAT HE RESTORED SEVERAL MINES ON YOUR REQUEST ON THE GROUNDS OF THE RANCH -- THE OUINNS* MINE, FOR EXAMPLE. WHAT IS IN THESE MINES? AND IS IT CORRECT WHAT SANNYASIN DHYAN JOHN SAID THAT YOU; HAVE BUILT A KALI TEMPLE?

A: That is absolutely wrong. Because in those three and half years while this man Bob Harvey was here, I was silent. I spoke only to Sheela. I never instructed him.

That's absolutely wrong; I was not speaking. And it is true that there is a possibility of mines on the land, it is 126 square miles of land. It comes in the range which directly comes from Canada and moves through this property.

Every possibility -- it may have oil, it may have gold, it may have silver, it may have copper; but we are not going to open those mines for the simple reason that we love our people so much that we don't want any hazard for our life. If you start working on a gold mine, you have to use chemicals which finally pollute all your water -- poisonous. In fact, one ranch just ahead of us has also gold mines.

They were going to open them and we had to go to the court because their water moves into our ranch. We will not allow our water to be polluted, and we have stopped them.

So there is no question of our people digging up all the metals or oil or whatsoever is available in the land. And legally ten feet of the earth is ours, and unless we allow anybody to penetrate those ten feet, nobody -- not even the American government -- can dig the gold underneath. And we know how to be rich, how to be wealthy. Who cares about the gold? Let it lie down.

And this man is absolutely lying that I had instructed. I have never talked with him. He had no business with me; he was a servant. He used to take care of this land before we came here. The past owners had put him as a servant here, and we accepted him for a time being, so that we can become acquainted with the whole territory. But that man cheated the commune. he was getting one thousand dollars per month from his owners. Our sannyasins are innocent people -- the accountant... he started going to the accountant every week to get $1000. Just a misunderstanding, the accountant thought perhaps he is salaried $1000 per week. Now, $4000 per month for a servant! Even a poor man like me cannot afford. And what qualifications he had for $4000? Even a vice-chancellor of a university does not get that much. The chief justice of the supreme court in Oregon does not get that much. He had no qualification, nothing -- just an ordinary servant. I had never given him any instructions. And because we are not interested at all in the mines, I don't think anybody else has given him instructions to find out. Because we are not interested at all. So many people have approached that they know there are mines here and they are researchers and they would like to research. We have refused them point blank. We don't want any research on our ground, because basically we don't want to create mines here.

Q: SWAMI PREM LEELADHAR WAS INTRODUCED IN THE RAJNEESH TIMES AS A PLASTIC SURGEON WHO SPECIALIZES IN SEX CHANGES. DO YOU PERFORM SEX CHANGES ON THE RANCH HERE?

A: If somebody wants, it is part of their freedom. If somebody wants to change his sex, I think there is nothing immoral in it. You have lived as a man: you know what being a man is, and naturally every man is curious about women. In fact, it is said that nobody has yet been able to find the mystery of the woman. This is a perfectly good way -- change your sex and be a woman, and find the mystery.

There is no mystery. (Laughter.) But if you can live in one life both the sides of the coin, why not? I don't see any problem in it. The sex change is such a simple thing. The difference between men and women is so mall, almost negligible. It is just like if you pull your pocket out it becomes man; you put the pocket back, it becomes woman. And Leeladhar is really a great plastic surgeon, one of the best. I only believe in the best. So if anybody wants...

Q: THERE ARE CONSISTENT RUMORS THAT THERE IS A HUGE ARMS CACHE IN RAJNEESHPURAM. I HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN SUCH A PEACEFUL PLACE BEFORE -- I MEAN PEOPLE HUGGING EACH OTHER ON THE STREET, SMILING AT EACH OTHER, WAVING AT EACH OTHER -- WHY WOULD YOU NEED SO MANY WEAPONS?

A: There are not so many weapons. We have a police force which is part of Oregon state. And for the police force, all the weapons and everything, the Oregon state is responsible, not we. We have a commune security force because I have been attacked many times, attempts on my life have been made, the last time in India when a knife was thrown at me, there were 10,000 sannyasins present. It was in a morning discourse. And because the police got some information ahead of time, 20 police officers had reached almost few minutes before the man threw the knife. So 20 police officers were eyewitnesses, 10,000 sannyasins were eye witnesses, and yet the court freed that man without any punishment. Because the politicians wanted him to be freed, because the religious leaders wanted him to be freed. There is so much hostility in Oregon, it is not a problem to me. In fact, I created it.

But my people are concerned about me, and if somebody comes to assassinate me, I will not hinder him. That is his freedom, I will not interfere with it, although he is interfering with my life, but even at the risk of my life, I will not interfere into his freedom. But my people -- why should I interfere in their freedom to protect me. So those few guards are here. And what a strange thing that in a world which has gone nuclear -- just those toy guns -- do you think we are going to attack America or Soviet Union?

Q: YOU DECLARED DEATH AS THE BIGGEST ORGASM OF ALL TIMES ONCE. DO YOU WANT TO LEAD YOUR DISCIPLES INTO THIS SUPER ORGASM, OR DO YOU FEAR ANOTHER JONESTOWN AMONG THEM?

A: No. This is the only place where Jonestown cannot happen. it can happen in the Vatican, it can happen in any Christian context. You should be aware of few things:

Both the world wars happened in a Christian context. Christianity for centuries has killed millions of people -- burned people alive -- it is a death-oriented religion, in the service of death.

Poor Reverend Jones was simply doing the best he could. This is the only place where Jonestown cannot happen, because there is nobody who is a "reverend" here. As far as my idea about death is concerned, if a man can go meditatively into death, then death is the greatest orgasm you can feel. Because death is the separation of body and soul; it is just like when the physicist breaks the atom, there is such a great explosion. Just a single atom, which is not visible to the eyes, can destroy Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

When man's body and his soul separate, if the man is alert and aware in that moment, he will see a tremendous explosion of joy, light, eternity, truth -- whatever you want to call it. But most people die unconsciously. Before death, they become unconscious, so they never come to know it. My people are learning meditation. There is no need for them to be especially prepared for death. I am

preparing them for life, and in that very preparation, they are getting ready for death. Any time they will have to die.

Q: IF I MIGHT INTERRUPT YOU, IF I UNDERSTAND YOU CORRECTLY THAT IF SEPARATION BETWEEN BODY AND SOUL IS SUCH A TREMENDOUS EXPERIENCE, WOULDN'T IT BE DESIRABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT?

A: No. Because before that you have to learn how to be alert and meditative; otherwise, you won't get anything, no orgasmic experience. Because the experiencer will be in a coma. The whole life is a preparation for death, and you should be able to be so conscious in life that when you are making love, there are not only two persons, but four persons. Two persons making love, and two consciousnesses watching, witnessing. Or you are walking on the road, you have to walk with watchfulness, alertness, so that you can see your own body walking.

The whole life you have to prepare; then only in death you may be able to retain consciousness. So it is not just separating the body and soul; otherwise everybody who is given electric chair will enjoy an orgasm. Then Jesus being crucified would have enjoyed an orgasm. Then all those Jews -- one million -- whom Hitler put into gas chambers. He did really great religious work: gave one million people spiritual orgasmic experiences, and still these Jews are against him. No, just death won't do.

Between death and you there must be full consciousness. Then only it can become an orgasmic experience. The whole life you need to prepare, and then death is the climax of life. Then it is not the end of life, but the climax of life. The whole perspective changes.

Q: YOU SAID THAT EVERYBODY WHO WILL DIE IN A TWENTY-FOUR MILES RADIUS OF RAJNEESHPURAM WILL AUTOMATICALLY ENLIGHTENED. WHY IS THAT SO?

A: That is true. Not everybody. There you are wrong. Only a sannyasin. Not Oregonians.

Only a sannyasin dying within a twenty-five mile radius will become enlightened. And this is not something new. It has been known in the East for thousands of years. Gautam Buddha had said exactly the same. He said within twelve cosas radius, any bikkhu that is his sannyasin dying will become enlightened.

I was puzzled myself that how, what mechanism works? Twelve cosas are approximately twenty-five miles; but then I saw few sannyasins dying around me and becoming enlightened, their death was not death. I could see it.

When Vimalkirti died, we celebrated his death as it is celebrated for an enlightened man. You could have seen on his face the joy, the marks of that orgasmic experience through which he had gone. He was still radiant. The body was still somehow carrying the stamp of the experience. And then, many sannyasins in these fifteen years have died.

Then slowly, slowly I became aware why it happens. I am continuously in contact with my people. They love me so immensely that it is not a question of believing in me -- it is a simple unconditional love. So whenever a sannyasin will be dying, these twenty-five miles are something like an existential law, like the law of gravitation or the law of water evaporating at 100 degrees. Nobody asks why.

And the scientist has no answer, he can say only that that's how it is. Never at 99 degrees; never at 101 degrees. Exactly at 100 degrees the water evaporates. But why the water has chosen 100 degrees? It is simply a law.

These twenty-five miles, Buddha has recorded; these twenty-five miles, Mahavira has recorded, another founder of a great religion, Jainism, a contemporary of Buddha. And I have experienced it, and now I can feel that the energy of a commune if it is a single enlightened person, then the radius will be only five miles at the most. But if it is a commune of thousands of sannyasins, the radius becomes twenty-five miles. Why? Nothing can be said about it. That's how it happens.

And I don't know if the commune becomes bigger and still bigger, perhaps the radius will become greater. I hope one day here you will see 100,000 sannyasins, and then I want to see how big the radius can be. Can we cover the whole America? Our effort will be to cover the whole world. We have communes all over the world which will soon have the same effect. Just they need one enlightened person amongst them, and then all other sannyasins become kind of radiating, reflecting the energy field further and further away.

And when a sannyasin dies in this loving energy field, it is easier for him to be awake than otherwise. It is just like if you are sitting amongst a few people who are yawning and dozing, soon you will find yourself yawning and dozing. And you will be surprized -- why you are doing it? Those people are creating a certain vibe. If you sit with people who are bored to death, soon you will feel a certain boredom entering in you. You may have experienced sometimes to be with someone, you feel as if you are nourished. And with someone else, you find as if you have been sucked.

These are very simple experiences everybody knows that with a certain person you gain energy, with a certain person you lose energy. People avoid these people because they are parasites. The enlightened person has an energy field of five miles, alone; but if he has a commune around him, then at least twenty-five miles radius is ready to wake any sannyasin dying within it. Why it works, there is no way to say. It is just the same as other scientific laws -- it is also a scientific law.

Q: YOUR PERSONAL ASSISTANT AND SECRETARY, SHEELA, HAS MADE TREMENDOUS WAVES HERE AND IN AUSTRALIA RECENTLY ON TELEVISION AND PRESS INTERVIEWS AND IN THOSE WAVES CREATED, YOU'VE GOT SOME REALLY BAD PRESS -- THE ORGANIZATION, YOU DID.

DID SHEELA ACT UNDER YOUR INSTRUCTIONS OR DO YOU FEEL SOMETIMES THAT SHE'S GONE MAYBE SOMETIMES TOO FAR?

A: No. She never goes as far as I want. She gets hit every time she comes back home, that this is not enough. You say I, my people, my commune got bad press.

I want none of it. Because I know certain laws that if we can create bad news immediately existence balances it with good news.

In existence nothing can remain unbalanced -- soon the balance settles. Now, to create good news is very difficult, almost impossible. But to create bad news is very easy, very simple. And I know that the simplest should be followed. Create bad news and let existence balance it by good news. And you will see what I am saying; it has already starting.

Q: BUT THEN IT WOULD BE EASY THAT ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS YOU HAVE TO SIT DOWN, HAVE A PRESS CONFERENCE, AND TELL EVERYBODY WHO WANTS TO HEAR THAT THERE ARE HUMAN SACRIFICES ON THE RANCH, THERE ARE, WHATEVER HORROR STORIES YOU CAN COOK UP.

A: We will do. We will do.

Q: I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE AN EXCLUSIVE ON THAT.

A: We will do. Everything. But we always wait for the right time to do it. There is a saying that no news is good news. It is not complete; it has waited for me to complete it. It says no news is good news. Its other part is good news is no news.

Bad news is the only news there is. Create as much bad news as possible. Don't be worried.

Q: DO YOU CREATE THEN THE BAD NEWS TO WAKE UP YOUR DISCIPLES, OR DO YOU CREATE THE BAD NEWS....?

A: I create the bad news to wake up my disciples and also to wake up those who are not my disciples, but will have to become my disciples sooner or later -- sooner the better.

Sheela is doing good, but she can do better.

Q: QUOTED AS SAYING "WHEN THIS WILL BE ALL OVER, I WILL BUY MYSELF A DARK SUIT, GO TO THE BAR, AND BUY A CIGAR." WILL YOU GO AND BUY YOURSELF A DARK SUIT?

A: Someday.

Q: SOON?

A: Soon -- just like Jesus said, "Soon."

Q: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.