Chapter 21

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

ANSWER:* Whatever you like.

Q:* CHOICES MAKE IT SO DIFFICULT FOR ME. ALL RIGHT.

A:* Choices are always difficult.

Q:* DURING THE THREE YEARS OF YOUR SILENCE, WAS THERE ANYTHING SPECIAL IN THE WORLD OCCURRING THAT ALARMS YOU?

MORE SO THAN WHAT HAD TRANSPIRED PREVIOUSLY?

A:* Two things: One is that nuclear weapons are coming to a point where either we have to stop producing them totally, or we have to be ready to evaporate from this planet. The second thing that has been of tremendous significance is the discovery of the disease AIDS.

Now it seems humanity is between two ditches. Almost walking on a razor's edge. Either nuclear weapons will destroy it, or the disease AIDS will destroy it.

The destruction is becoming more, more probable than it was before.

It is easy to control the politicians, convince the politicians not to go forward, but how to convince the virus that creates AIDS, and how to convince the people to turn away from all the perversions that religions have forced upon their sexuality? AIDS is the culmination of homosexuality, lesbianism and all kinds of perversions.

But the source is religious insistence on celibacy, which is unnatural. If you force people to be celibate, and you force men and women to live separately in monasteries and nunneries, homosexuality is bound to happen. You cannot prevent it, because man's sexuality will have to have to find some way out.

And AIDS is the ultimate of that perversion. They don't know that there is any possibility to find a cure for it. Almost all the experts are agreed that a person who has confirmed AIDS is going to die within two years.

But within two years he can spread the disease to thousands of people. By sexual contact, just by kissing somebody, and a few experts are even suspecting that it may be contracted by breathing. Then we are on wildfire, which can spread all over the earth without any limitation.

It seems everything is against humanity. It is as if this planet is going to die.

That's why I started speaking again. I felt that seeing the death of the planet just as an observer is irresponsibility. I have to respond to the situation, and I am spreading -- through my sannyasins, through mass media, in every possible way -- how we can destroy the idea of celibacy from religions, how we can convert homosexuals into heterosexuals, how we can convince the women's liberation movement that lesbianism is not liberation but sheer stupidity, and how we can create an atmosphere around the world that will force politicians to stop piling up more and more nuclear weapons.

It is almost an impossible task, but not absolutely impossible, and when the life of the whole planet is at risk, everything should be done to prevent it. Every intelligent man's door should be knocked on. It is time to take the challenge and come out.

The artists, the painters, the scientists, the dancers, the musicians, all the creative people around the world should declare that any government that goes on piling up nuclear weapons is anti-people, anti-humanity.

Q:* YOU SPEAK OF CHANGING HUMAN NATURE. NOW THAT THE VIRUS AIDS IS HERE, IT IS PRESENT, IT IS THERE. NOW THE NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE IN EXISTENCE. IS CHANGING HUMAN NATURE AKIN TO CLOSING THE BARN DOOR AFTER THE ANIMAL HAS ESCAPED, NOW THAT THE PROBLEM IS ALREADY HERE?

A:* Changing human nature can make a lot of difference, because AIDS is not a natural disease.

Q:* HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

A:* Because all the medical experts are agreed that it is a by-product of homosexuality. No heterosexual couple who has remained together without sexual contacts with other people has come up with AIDS. Homosexuality -- if we can simply convince the popes and the imams and Ayatollah Khomeini and all these idiots to stop this idea of celibacy -- allow your monks, your nuns to make love, and allow humanity freedom from the guilt of making love, don't make it a sin. At this moment every resource should be used to convert

perversions back to nature. Heterosexuality is a natural phenomenon. And out of heterosexuality there is no possibility of AIDS.

Secondly, the very fact that we have so many nuclear weapons that we can destroy the whole humanity 700 times is enough, if everybody comes to know about what the politicians are doing. Even the politicians are no more so enthusiastic about a nuclear war. They can also see that in this war nobody is going to be defeated and nobody is going to be victorious. This war is a global suicide, it is not war. Just a huge amount of nuclear weapons is enough to prevent it being used.

So I am not without hope. I see every possibility that we can change the course where we are going unconsciously. There is no need for AIDS to be there, and there is no need for a nuclear war to be there. In fact, we can change the nuclear energy into creative sources. We can make this earth a beautiful garden without hunger, without poverty, without disease. It will be simply idiotic to use so much energy for destroying innocent people, and for destroying the only planet around here that is alive.

Q:* ARE YOU GETTING USED TO THE TAPE CHANGES, THE INTERRUPTIONS?

A:* I am accustomed to every kind of change.

Q:* BHAGWAN, WE HEARD A LOT OF RUMORS DURING YOUR THREE YEARS OF SILENCE ABOUT YOU OWN HEALTH. HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW?

A:* I am feeling better.

Q:* THE BACK PROBLEMS, THE ALLERGIES, THEY ARE IMPROVING?

A:* No, they are there, but these are not sicknesses which can ever be cured. You have to take care and avoid the situations in which they can occur. I am as allergic as I have ever been, but all the possibilities of allergy are prevented. I don't come in contact with any perfume. I don't come in contact with crowds, perspiration, smells, dust. Then I am perfectly okay, there is no problem. Those allergies are not diseases -- they are simply my heritage.

Q:* ARE THEY FRUSTRATIONS, LIMITING YOUR...?

A:* No, no frustration in it. In fact, it keeps me absolutely clean. And it keeps me isolated, which I enjoy. Because to be silent and alone gives the greatest bliss that is possible in life.

So I don't take allergies as a disadvantage -- it has proved a blessing in disguise.

My back also has been a blessing in disguise. It is the same -- the problem is there. The best experts in India and from England confirmed that it is not something that will leave me. I will have to live with it.

And, you will be surprised, because of my back, only Rolls Royce suits me. No other car, no other chair. So you can see the blessing in disguise: my back has brought Rolls Royces to me.

Q:* SO THAT'S THE REASON! I'VE BEEN WONDERING!

A:* Yes, that's the reason. Everybody has been wondering, but that is the reason.

I keep people wondering about many things.

Q:* HOW CAN A MAN WHO LIKES ROLLS ROYCES DISLIKE SPAGHETTI?

A:* That is a long story! I used to have a very beautiful woman around me -- an Italian woman -- twenty years ago. I don't think she ever took a bath. She was simple against it, it seems. She smelled... just disgusting! But she was a beautiful woman....

At that time I was not aware that I am allergic. The day I became aware that I am allergic, I got rid of that woman. She was the first woman who brought spaghetti to me, and it smelled of her. That's why I am against spaghetti -- even the name of spaghetti reminds me of that woman, and I immediately start feeling that my attack of athsma is coming. Otherwise, I have nothing against spaghetti.

Q:* LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT A SUBJECT THAT MAY BE LESS PLEASANT THAN SPAGHETTI, OR MORE UNPLEASANT....

A:* No, nothing is more unpleasant....

Q:* WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO YOUR FOLLOWERS WHEN YOU PASS ON?

A:* Who cares? What was happening to them when I was not here? The world goes on. When I was not here -- it is not a problem to me -- what was happening in the world was happening.

I was not here, I was not responsible for it. When I am gone, to you I am gone; to me you are gone. So the curtain falls.

Q:* WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO YOU NOW TO BE HERE, TO REMAIN IN THE UNITED STATES, TO REMAIN IN OREGON, TO HAVE THE ATTORNEYS FIGHTING THE BATTLES WITH IMMIGRATION?

A:* I enjoy fighting. And because I have found the most backward people here in Oregon, I have chosen it. The fight is going to be long. The longer it goes, the longer it will keep me alive. The longer it goes, the stronger it will make my people. And we are on the right path.

We are fighting for those values America stands for, and they are fighting against America. We are fighting for the Constitution of America, and they are doing everything against the Constitution. So it has to be seen who wins. We may be a small minority, but I promise you that we are going to win in every case against the state of Oregon.

And we are going to prove to these people that it is not so easy to go against the only constitution in the world which has some democratic fragrance about it.

Q:* DO YOU THINK IT IS POSSIBLE TO PERSUADE THE PEOPLE OF OREGON, OR DO THEY HAVE TO BE DEFEATED?

A:* I don't want to persuade anybody. Either they defeat me, or I defeat them.

No compromise.

Truth knows no compromise. The lies always are ready to compromise.

Naturally, because in compromise, truth will always be the loser and the lie will always be the gainer. The lie is zero, it has nothing to lose.

Yes, the state government has been trying to compromise. The federal government has been sending their mediators to compromise. I am not going to compromise, and when the other party is trying to compromise, that shows where they are. They know that if they don't compromise, they are going to lose the whole thing. And why should I compromise when I know that the whole thing is going to be mine?

Q:* WHEN YOU USE PHRASES THAT ARE TAKEN BY THE PEOPLE OF OREGON AND OTHERS AS INFLAMMATORY IN YOUR DISCOURSES....

YOU HAVE REFERRED TO PEOPLE WHO ARE HELD VERY DEARLY BY PEOPLE HERE ... BY PHRASES SUCH AS "POPE THE POLACK," "CHRIST THE CRACKPOT," "MOTHER TERESA, THE CRIMINAL." ARE THOSE PHRASES INTENDED TO BRING ENLIGHTENMENT TO PEOPLE, OR DO THEY INSTEAD FILL THE HEARTS OF THOSE PEOPLE WITH SUCH HATRED THAT THEY CANNOT HEAR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

A:* It works in many ways. Those are my devices. First, I am talking to my own people. They are not hurt by what I am saying about Pope the Polack, Teresa the Terrible, Christ the Crackpot -- nobody is hurt. On the contrary, they start looking at things in a totally new way, the way I want them to look at them.

I want outside people to get hurt, shocked. I want them to be angry, hateful, because it is a very fundamental principle of psychology that if you can create hate in a man, it is very easy to change it into love. Love and hate are not so

different as people think, and certainly they are not opposites. They are two polarities of one energy, just like darkness and light.

So without going anywhere, just sitting in my room, I can manage to give shocks all around the world, shake people in their sleep, in their slumber. Because to me their Christianity is a kind of opium, and their Hinduism is a kind of marijuana, and so on, so forth. These people need to be shaken really badly.

And I will go on throwing ice-cold water on their eyes as long as they don't open their eyes and jump out of the bed. It is not a question of persuasion. You don't persuade a sleeping person to wake up, because between a person who is awake and a person who is asleep there is no possibility of communication. So whether they hear me or not, I want them to be hateful against me, that's enough -- I have done my job. All these people....

And there are almost one million sannyasins around the world. Even in Soviet Russia, even in East Germany I have my sannyasins. Of course, they are underground sannyasins. From where are these people coming? First they were shocked, first they were hurt, but their shock and their hurt started a great question, a great quest in their minds.

They became suspicious about their own conditioning: Perhaps Christ was a crackpot? Let us give it another thought. And Pope is certainly the Polack, there are not two opinions about it, and you cannot find a thicker head than Pope the Polack's, because the world is suffering from overpopulation, and he is preaching around the world against birth control, against the pill, against abortion.

This man -- if I call him a criminal, I am not condemning him, only describing him -- perhaps he is the greatest criminal alive. And the same is my attitude about the Hindu leader, shankaracharya, Mohammedan leaders like Ayatollah Khomeini -- I call him Khomeiniac -- because these are the people who are insisting on more and more population on the earth.

Ethiopia is dying, India is dying, soon the third world will be dying of starvation.

And who will be responsible for it? Mother Teresa will be responsible for it, Pope will be responsible for it. In the eyes of the future, these people will be as criminal as middle ages popes are criminal in our eyes. They burned innocent old women, just calling them witches. So what? If somebody wants to be a witch -- the word is not bad, it just means a wise woman -- so whose business is it to prevent?

In the middle ages, the same popes representing the same Jesus Christ, calling themselves infallible, burned thousands of women alive because they decided that they are in conspiracy with the devil. Now no intelligent person today can stand on their side in that matter. They themselves feel ashamed. In fact, they burned Joan of Arc as a witch, but it was so much against people's love for that courageous young woman that finally after three hundred years, they changed their verdict.

One infallible pope burns the woman alive, declares her a witch; another infallible pope declares Joan of Arc a saint. From the grave the bones are pulled out and worshipped.

Now these idiots -- you want me to be polite with them? And they are dragging the whole world towards poverty. They have a vested interest in poverty -- they have to be exposed. Mother Teresa wants more and more orphans in the world; otherwise who is going to give her Nobel prizes and all kinds of awards and titles? She is roaming around the world -- I don't know when she finds time for serving humanity -- receiving rewards, awards, titles, opening functions, conferences. I can't think when she serves humanity. All she is doing is collecting Hindu and Mohammedan orphans and converting them into Catholics. This is sheer politics of number, she is a cunning politician. It is not even right to call her a woman -- she has no heart. She is simply a puppet in the hands of the Vatican.

Q:* IS IT POSSIBLE FOR YOU TO LOOK AT A CHILD DYING OF STARVATION AND NOT TO FEEL A TUG AT YOUR HEART, A DESIRE TO DO SOMETHING FOR THE CHILD?

A:* I will do something for the child: I will give him an injection and send him into eternal sleep. That is my compassion. To keep him alive for his whole life to starve again and again, fall sick, create more children who will be sick, who will be again orphans -- this is sheer stupidity.

I am a simple man of mathematics. If Ethiopia is dying, my compassion says there is no point in sending food, because these Ethiopians with that food will crate more Ethiopians. This is not a solution.

Either give them so much that they can live at your standard of living -- but for that you will have to stop all your nuclear weapons and all your war efforts and all the money that you go on pouring into them. Or, if you cannot do that -- and nobody is willing to do that -- these hypocrites go on calling themselves compassionate. What kind of compassion is this?

[text missing here in change from tape one, side A to side B] ... a little butter to the Ethiopians. For four years they have been dying, because for four years there has been no rain. And now every day thousands of people are dying. All over the world politicians feel compassionate. They send a little bit, but their gifts prove to be only spoonfuls of sugar thrown into the ocean to make it sweet.

No, I am not so gullible. I can see the point is either, if you want to destroy poverty from the earth, stop war, stop all this nonsense of America and Soviet Union; or, be at least honest and say we cannot save Ethiopia, we cannot save India.

Why allow those people to starve and suffer? We can easily send medical teams - - I can send my own medical team. And this is such a simple affair, just one injection and the person goes into eternal sleep. And there is no problem, because if the soul is eternal, as all the religions say, then you have not done anything. Just the house was falling and you have moved the soul into a new house, a better house, a fresher house.

But if all these religions are wrong and communists and materialists are right, then too, there is no problem. They say when the body dies, everything dies, there is no soul left -- no problem is there. So whether one believes in the soul or does not believe in the soul, it is better to let these poor people at least die peacefully. You could not help them to live peacefully, joyously, but you can at least send them to death peacefully, silently. That is my compassion.

Q:* BHAGWAN, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOME OTHER MISFORTUNATE SOULS....

A:* You can ask about anything, because I have no secrets to keep about anything, I have nothing private, I am absolutely open to all kinds of queries.

And I am going to say exactly what everybody wants to say, but they don't have the guts to say it. And I don't care about any respectability -- I am already notorious enough. And I enjoy it.

Q:* YOU ENJOY IT? HOW SO?

A:* Yes, I enjoy it. To be respectable means bourgeois; to be notorious means rebellious. Every revolutionary will be notorious in his time, and every respectable person is nothing but in the service of the vested interests. Certainly, you don't give Nobel prizes to notorious people like me. You give Nobel prizes to Mother Teresa. She is respected because she is serving your vested interests.

I am notorious, but I enjoy it. I don't want to be respectable. To be respected this mad humanity is insulting.

Q:* LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S PERHAPS MADE YOU NOTORIOUS IN THIS HUMANITY -- BRINGING THE UNFORTUNATE SOULS I WAS ABOUT TO TALK ABOUT EARLIER, THE HOBOS, THE TRANSIENTS, THE DERELICTS WHO WERE BROUGHT HERE LAST FALL. DID YOU APPROVE OF THAT? WAS THAT A WISE THING TO DO?

A:* We enjoyed doing it, and it was the best thing to do. And we are going to do something better soon, so you will forget about it completely. And each year we are going to do something better. That's the only way.

When you have a headache and you feel it is unbearable, I will just set fire to your house, and soon you will forget all about your headache.

Q:* WHY DID THOSE MEN NOT FORGET ABOUT THEIR HEADACHES?

WHY COULDN'T THEY ADAPT HERE? WHY DID THEY LEAVE?

A:* Because they were uneducated, because they had been provided for their whole life food, clothes and other things by the churches and Christian associations, to live a life of misery on the streets. Those people were retarded.

Q:* BUT YOU KNEW THAT. WHY DID YOU STILL BRING THEM HERE?

A:* I tried it as an experiment. Those who could understand me are still here.

Those who could not, they have left -- they were free. In an experiment, you have to take the risk.

I am going to take a greater risk soon.

Q:* COULD YOU AMPLIFY ON THAT?

A:* No.

Q:* WHEN WILL YOU?

A:* Not right now. It is going to be declared in a world press conference. It is not a simple, small thing. It is really big.

Q:* BUT THE INTENT IS TO BRING THE WORD TO ADDITIONAL PEOPLE?

A:* No. Just to bring more notoriety to me!

Q:* ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THE WAY THIS COMMUNE HAS DEVELOPED?

LET ME ASK IN PARTICULAR ABOUT ALL THE SECURITY PRECAUTIONS THAT APPARENTLY HAVE BECOME NECESSARY TO MAINTAIN THE INTEGRITY OF THE COMMUNE. IS THAT THE KIND OF ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH YOU LIVE TO LIVE?

A:* No. Your question is wrong. I am absolutely happy with the commune and its development.

But behind the question, you are being journalistic. You are saying, "To save the integrity of the community there are guns and guards." That is absolutely wrong.

Q:* WHAT IS THE REASON FOR THEM, THEN?

A:* The reason for those guards is because I have been attacked many times in my life: I have been poisoned; an attempt was made to kill me with a knife before then thousand sannyasins -- and twenty police officers, because they got the message that something was going to happen that morning, so they reached in time before the knife was thrown at me. The man was caught red-handed. Ten thousand witness, twenty police officers as witnesses -- and still the man was freed by the court with punishment.

Now, if my people feel to protect me, I am not going to interfere, for the simple reason that I don't interfere. If somebody is going to assassinate me, I will say hi to him, too. I will not interfere.

And if my people who love me want to protect me -- and what protection? In a nuclear world, do you think those guns mean anything? Except for their love for me, those guns are toy guns. What can they do?

But I respect their love. I don't care about their guns. And those guns are not for the integrity of the community. The community is integrated on its own. Those guns have nothing to do with it. And those guns have not been used for four years to harm anybody. And they will never be used to harm anybody.

But if somebody tries to harm the community, certainly, we will do everything to fight back. I believe in tit for tat.

Q:* THE COMMUNE HERE DEFENDING ITSELF IF THERE SHOULD BE SOME ATTACK -- IS THAT IN CONCEPT ANY DIFFERENT FROM A NATION STOCKPILING NUCLEAR WEAPONS TO DEFEND ITSELF FROM AN ATTACK?

A:* No.

Q:* I GATHER FROM YOUR CONDEMNATION, THEN, OF STOCKPILING NUCLEAR WEAPONS THAT YOU ARE NOT PLEASED WITH WHAT THE COMMUNE IS DOING.

A:* No. I am not stockpiling nuclear weapons here, and I won't allow my commune to stockpile nuclear weapons. And I don't want nations not to have armies, not to have other weapons. I am just against nuclear weapons. Other weapons are just a football match, and man is an animal -- once in a while there is an itch to fight.

I am in favor of pre-first-world-war weapons. Do your best -- those weapons were perfectly good. And the world was a far more pleasant place to live before the first world war, because the population was small, and your wars helped to keep the balance of population. You need wars.

I am not a pacifist. I think if wars completely disappear, it will be a loss. It is perfectly good for this mad humanity once in a while to erupt into a war, destroy a few people, because they were surplus, and keep the balance.

I am against nuclear weapons because that will destroy the whole humanity and then there will be no fourth world war. And that I don't like! I would love fourth world war, fifth world, war, and history goes on. But this third world war is dangerous -- it simply puts a full point on history. That's why I am against it.

Otherwise, I am not against war. It is just children playing. Let them play -- there is no harm. So if my commune wants to collect pre-first-world-war weapons, I am for it!

Q:* I DON'T THINK THEY HAD OUZIS IN WORLD WAR I, DID THEY?

A:* They are not nuclear weapons. They are freely available in the market, anybody can purchase them. The government does not think them serious weapons. Anybody who wants to purchase them in any numbers can purchase them. They are freely available.

And if Oregonians have them, I will not prevent my people. If Oregonians have one, my people will have two, because in a game you should not lag behind. And what does it matter? People have to die anyway.

And the strangest thing is that most of people -- ninety-nine percent of people -- die on their beds. That is the most dangerous place! Ninety-nine percent. Only one percent manage to die in varieties of ways.

So this is nothing wrong. Just if people want to fight, have a good fight -- enjoy it, celebrate it! Oregonians will be fighting with hostility and we will be fighting with songs and dances and celebration.

Perhaps they will be able to kill us, but they cannot kill our spirit -- the spirit of ecstasy. And that will haunt them more. The ghost of Rajneeshpuram may haunt the whole of America!

Q:* THAT'S AN OMINOUS STATEMENT. I MEAN, DO YOU HAVE A VISION?

IS THIS COMMUNE GOING TO BECOME SOME FORM OF MARTYR?

A:* No, no. I am just joking!

Q:* HOW MUCH OF THE TIME ARE YOU JOKING?

A:* All the time!... One hundred percent! I am absolutely a non-serious person, so I can say anything because a non-serious person has no bondage.

Q:* BUT WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY?

A:* They are foolish! They should learn to take me non-seriously, the way I take the whole world non-seriously. If they don't learn it, then they unnecessarily get terrified, go through nervous breakdowns. I am absolutely non-serious. What I

am saying to you, I may contradict tomorrow -- or if you want, right now! I can do that, too.

Just don't change the cassette in the middle!

Q:* YOU AT TIMES HAVE SPOKEN WELL OF SOME OF THE THINGS JESUS SAID, SOME OF THE WORDS THAT ARE ATTRIBUTED TO BUDDHA, TO MOHAMMED. AND I HAVE ALSO UNDERSTOOD YOU TO SAY THAT MUCH OF WHAT THEY DID THAT IS GOOD WAS LOST IN THE FORMALISM OF THEIR FOLLOWERS, WHAT THE FOLLOWERS TRIED TO ESTABLISH. I WANT TO ASK YOU IF YOU SEE A PARALLEL HAPPENING IN THIS COMMUNE HERE -- THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS BEING LOST IN THE FORMALISM OF YOUR FOLLOWERS?

A:* No. It is impossible. First I have to remind you that whatever I have said about Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed -- and that there is much good in them which has been lost by their followers -- is centuries old. You are quoting Old Testament, and I am now in the middle of the LAST TESTAMENT.

Those statements belonged three and a half years ago, before I went into silence.

And do you know why I went into silence for three and a half years? Because I got tired of telling beautiful things about Jesus, knowing perfectly well that he was a crackpot.

Q:* WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY IT, THEN?

A:* Because I wanted to catch hold of Christians, and I got them! I have my devices -- I may be a madman but I have my methodology.

Q:* DO THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS?

A:* Yes.

Q:* DO YOU BELIEVE IN MACHIAVELLI? IS THAT PART OF YOUR PHILOSOPHY?

A:* Machiavelli can be my disciple, and he will enjoy learning a few more things that he has missed. I spoke on Jesus and I said he had said many beautiful things.

And I interpreted him, but that interpretation was mine. It has nothing to do with Jesus. I was simply trying to catch hold of a few Christians, but that I was doing with all the religions.

It is natural, because all the people of the world are already divided. When I came into this world, somebody is a Mohammedan, somebody is a Christian, somebody is a Hindu -- no customer available! And I have to do my business, too. I have every right. So, how to get customers?

I had to plan devices. And the natural way was -- the simpler way -- that anything that is wrong in Jesus, throw it on his disciples. And anything that can be seen as good, can be polished, given a more contemporary ring, bring it above and give the credit to Jesus.

Great Christians like Stanley Jones, who was a world-famous missionary, he told me, "I am puzzled. No Christian down the centuries has even been able to give such beautiful meaning to the words of Jesus." I said, "The trouble is, I cannot tell you the truth." That poor fellow is dead now -- but to you I can tell the truth:

What beauty can be in Jesus' words? He was uneducated, uncultured, a carpenter's son. In his time it was said laughingly, "Look at the Messiah.... Who has ever heard that prophets and messiahs are born in Bethlehem?" Bethlehem became a laughing stock because of Jesus, and he was looked at like a buffoon.

Riding on his donkey, proclaiming himself as the only begotten son of God....

Just see it, visualize it: a man sitting on a donkey looking like a perfect hippie, declaring he is the only begotten son of God, and telling you, "Unless you follow me, there is no way to be saved. At the last judgment day, I will choose my sheep and they will enter into paradise. And those who are not chosen by me, will fall into eternal hell."

And have you ever thought of the meaning of eternal hell? In a seventy-year life, how man sins can you commit to deserve eternal hell? Is there any fairness, justice in existence, or not? In seventy years -- because Christians believe in only one life -- how many sins can you manage to commit to deserve eternal punishment? This is simply stupid. Because of this simple statement, Bertrand Russell went against Jesus and he wrote a book, WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN, because this is simply unfair, unjust, inhuman. And the man certainly is a mental case.

Now I have got my people -- from all sources I have caught them, from Buddhists, from Hindus, from Christians, from Jews. From every land, from every country, from every race, I have caught hold of those who can now listen to me directly, and I don't need any Jesus, any Buddha, any Mohammed to stand between me and my disciples. So I am kicking them out.

For three years I remained silent, just to give a gap so people forget all about what I said before those three years, and I can start from the very beginning again. So don't quote anything from my books. Those days are dead -- those books are dead.

Q:* DO YOU WEAR THAT WATCH EXCEPT DURING TV INTERVIEWS?

A:* I have got hundreds of watches. And this is the least costly -- just $180,000. I have watches which are a half-million dollars, or more. And I have hundreds -- but they don't belong to me, they belong to my sannyasins. This watch, too, is borrowed. Nothing belongs to me; everything is provided for me. I am just a guest here in this commune. I am not even a sannyasin.

Q:* IF I UNDERSTOOD YOU CORRECTLY, THAT YOU SAW SPEAKING HIGHLY OF JESUS AS A STRATEGY TO APPEAL TO CHRISTIANS, TO GET YOUR WORD TO THEM, AS A TACTIC. DO YOU HAVE NEW TACTICS NOW? IS YOUR TALKING TO US THIS EVENING -- IS THIS PART OF A NEW TACTIC TO REACH PEOPLE?

A:* Everything I do is a certain device. Talking to you, too. I am involved in some great alchemical work of transforming people from their sleep into enlightened souls, and I have to try every kind of device possible.

This, too, is part of it. Everything that I say or do is part -- organic part -- of my whole work. And my work is to bring to people awakening on as big a scale as possible, as it has never happened before.

Q:* YOU USED THE FIGURE EARLIER, IF I UNDERSTOOD CORRECTLY, OF A MILLION SANNYASINS AROUND THE WORLD. WOULD THAT BE YOUR ESTIMATE?

A:* Yes.

Q:* I HAVE READ -- I HAVE NOT PERSONALLY ASCERTAINED THE ACCURACY OF THIS -- THAT A NUMBER OF YOUR MEDITATION CENTERS BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND IN EUROPE HAVE CLOSED, AND THE CONCLUSION THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE DRAWN FROM THAT IS THAT THE NUMBER OF SANNYASINS IS SHRINKING.

A:* Their conclusion is wrong. We have closed a few centers because those centers were too small, and the sannyasins were finding it difficult to live amongst the hostility around them. So we have consolidated a few centers into a big commune. So those centers have disappeared, but a new commune has come into existence.

The number has not decreased, the number has increased because many who were afraid before to become sannyasins are no more afraid because they have five hundred sannyasins with them. Now their enemies are afraid.

I am consolidating all over the world, and the number is increasing every day.

From a half-million it has reached to one million, and these are above-ground sannyasins. The underground sannyasins are not included in it.

In communist countries, in China, in Russia, in other small communist countries I have my sannyasins, and they are spreading fast there, too. In fact, they are more excited than sannyasins anywhere else. Naturally, human psychology is such that in Moscow they have to meet in a basement of a friend's house -- silently, afraid even the walls in Russia are detectives and belong to the KGB.

There is great excitement in meditation, in reading my books, listening to my tapes. For sixty years in Russia, religion had almost disappeared except in a few places which the Russian government has been keeping up for tourist purposes.

Only a few churches are there which are maintained for foreigners to visit and see that religion has not been disturbed. Everybody is free -- and you can see.

But in fact all the churches have become either hospitals or schools, and the whole country has become atheistic. After sixty years, these people were born after the revolution. They have been brought up in an atheist atmosphere. They have been conditioned that there is nothing in you -- you are only a component of physics, chemistry, biology, but there is no spirit in you.

And for the first time they are becoming aware through me that they are consciousness. All these things are just their house, and they are not just a composite whole of all these things; they have an individuality, a consciousness.

And the only way to discover it is meditation, and people are meditating.

And the government is already starting to persecute them, trying to find out where they meet, what they do, where they go. They have started taking my books from them. My books are banned. These are good signs -- this means the youth will get more excited. It has become a revolution, and that's what the young blood always needs -- some rebellion.

I have one million people, and they will be growing every day for the simple reason that there is no other alternative. The old world is already dead -- or almost dead, which is worse!

And for the new world there is no other movement except this movement. It is not a political movement. It does not belong to any nation. It does not belong to any race. It does not belong to the past. It is absolutely fresh -- just born, young.

And you are asking: Can your followers do the same as happened with Jesus? In the first place, the followers have not destroyed Jesus, Jesus had everything ready. He had sown the seeds, the followers have only been reaping the crop.

Jesus is responsible.

I am not giving any theology to my disciples. I am not giving them any catechism. I am not giving them any belief system. And my statements are so contradictory, that there is no possibility for anybody to figure out what kind of man this was. Nobody can bring any deformation, because I am not giving anything to the disciples -- no discipline, no dogma, no creed. What can they do?

I am giving them freedom to do whatsoever they want to do. I am giving their responsibility to themselves. I am not taking their responsibility on me. I am not their savior or prophet or messiah, no.

Q:* YOU ARE THEIR MASTER.

A:* I am master of myself!

Q:* ARE YOU THEIR MASTER, AS WELL?

A:* No. I am trying to help them to be masters of themselves. I am just a catalytic agent. I am master of myself, so I know how one becomes a master of oneself. I am simply sharing my experience with these people. They are not my followers, they are my fellow travelers. And they are absolutely free to do anything they want. No restrictions, no inhibitions, no repressions.

What can they do? The moment I am gone, they will also go on their way separately, because their connection with me is direct. They are not interconnected like Christians or Hindus or Mohammedans. They are connected to me directly. Each sannyasin has a direct communication line with me. The moment I am gone, his last barrier is also finished. Other barriers I had finished before -- now the last barrier, the love towards me, is also finished.

He is now totally free. Utterly free -- to be himself. So there is no problem. The followers of Buddha or Confucius they all destroyed their Master's things because the Master himself has given all the poison that was needed to destroy it.

For example, Buddhas has given 33,000 rules of conduct. Even to remember them is impossible, the question of following them does not arise. And any man trying to follow 33,000 rules of conduct will soon be in an insane asylum. He will be in the same position as happened in Aesop's fable of the centipede.

A centipede is just going for his morning walk. One hundred legs -- a small rabbit could not believe his eyes, how he managed to walk. One hundred legs?

Which one first, which one second, which one third? He stopped the centipede and said, "Uncle, I have a question if you don't mind. How do you manage to walk with one hundred legs? He said, "My God, I never thought about it! Now I will watch how I walk and then I will tell you. Up to now I have been simply walking without thinking."

And he could not walk even a single step. He fell down, because he was trying to figure out which leg first and which leg second -- and the number was one hundred. Even a great mathematician like Albert Einstein would have fallen with one hundred legs. That poor centipede -- knowing no arithmetic.

But the centipede was very angry and told the rabbit, "It's okay that you asked the question to me, but here is a big commune of other centipedes. Don't ask such a stupid question to anybody. Perhaps you have crippled me for my whole life! I will never be able to walk again, because I don't know how I used to walk.

It was simply natural."

33,000 rules of conduct? Are you trying to drive humanity insane? And if they don't follow, they feel guilty. If they follow, they look mad. And if you look at those rules, you will be absolutely aware. For example, one sannyasin, Buddha's disciple, was going to spread his message. Buddha said to him, "Never look at a woman. You are going far away."

The man said, "It is a little bit difficult, because half the people are women.

Everywhere is full of women, and you are giving me a message not to look at a

woman? But how am I supposed to know before looking that a woman is coming? And by the time I know that she is a woman, I have already looked."

The man raised the question that it would be almost impossible for him to follow it, Buddha gave him the advice, "No, it is possible. I will give you the clue. You walk looking just four feet ahead of you, so if you see a woman's feet, you know.

Don't look up, always keep your eyes glued four feet away." In India, women use ornaments on the feet, on the toes, and just by looking at the feet you will know it is a woman.

The man was a little of a philosopher. He said, "That's okay. Anything else?"

Buddha said, "Never touch a woman." The man said, "But there can be a situation.... For example, a woman is drowning and I am standing on the bank.

What do you want me to do, jump in the river and save the woman, or just go on my way without looking at her? A woman may have fallen on the street sick or old or blind and she needs the help of someone to take her at least to the nearest town, and I am passing by. What do you suggest?"

Buddha said, "Okay, you can touch a woman, but remain absolutely alert. Keep yourself as a witness, don't get in any way involved. Do it as if she is only a corpse, and you are fulfilling your duty."

Now this kind of discipline will soon create disturbances. People are going to disobey such things and find loopholes and destroy the whole thing.

I have not given them anything in which they can find loopholes -- I have given them only loopholes. Now what can they destroy? It is said a fishing net consists of holes. I have given them only holes,no fishing net. Now they can do whatsoever they want to do with holes. I give them absolute freedom to be themselves.... No guilt, no promise, just enjoy the moment to the fullest, and you are not responsible to anybody.

No God to be responsible towards, no hell to be afraid of, no heaven to be greedy for. All that is present this very moment, enjoy it intensely, totally, because no one knows -- the next moment may come, may not come.

You want to do something?

Q:* BHAGWAN, HOW DO YOU THINK WHAT WE'VE DISCUSSED EARLIER THAT IT'S KIND OF HARD TO CATEGORIZE YOU, BUT WHAT CONCLUSIONS DO YOU THINK HISTORY WILL REACH ABOUT YOUR EXPERIMENT HERE?

A:* I don't know Q:* AND FURTHERMORE, YOU DON'T CARE!

A:* I don't care. Who cares when you are dead; you are not going to come back to read what others are writing about you, whether your name is in the history books or not. What is the point?

Alexander the Great did so much, tried to conquer the whole known world, almost succeeded. But what is the point? He died when he was thirty-three, and after that he has not been seen around -- reading history and enjoying that his name is everywhere, and he is one of the greatest heroes in history. What does it matter? I don't know, and I don't care, either.

I am perfectly happy right now, so blessed that I can bless the whole world. Still my blissfulness will not be exhausted.

Q:* WHY SHARE IT WITH THE WORLD? YOU MENTIONED EARLIER YOUR HAPPINESS IN YOUR OWN PERSON.... WHY NOT KEEP IT WITHIN YOURSELF?

A:* Because it goes on increasing if you share. It is profit-making.

Q:* THERE ARE A FEW GIGGLES THERE. DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY PROFIT-MAKING.

A:* The more you share your bliss, your joy, the more it increases. It is a totally different kind of economics from that which you are aware of. In the ordinary economics the rule is if you go on sharing your money, it will decrease.

In the higher economics, which is my business, the more you share, the more existence goes on pouring into you. It is just like a well: you go on drawing water from the well and new water goes on flowing from everywhere. If you stop drawing water from the well, the water will become stale, dead, even poisonous.

Bliss has to be shared. It is not out of compassion. That is why I said it is profit- making. It is not out of compassion that I share my bliss. it is just out of simple profit motive. It increases the more I share. It is like the rain cloud full of rain. It has to shower somewhere, otherwise it will become heavy, burdened.

Yes, I say, if you don't share your bliss it will go stale. It will start stinking very soon. It will die. You have to share it to keep it alive, flowing, increasing, expanding. I am an imperialist. I don't believe in any limits on anything.

I can understanding why you are scratching your beard. You don't have a beard and you are scratching it. You take a few grapes -- that will help you. That scratching is nervous. You just take some grapes! Those grapes are there just to avoid doing anything else that shows nervousness.

But it is something new. All journalists feel nervous, because they have never met such a crazy man before. Who will not feel nervous? You take a few grapes.

Q:* I DON'T THINK THEY ALLOW ME A MEAL BREAK UNTIL I'M OFF WORK.

A:* Okay.

Q:* WHY IS IT IMPORTANT, OR WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO SELL BLISS, WHY CAN'T YOU GIVE IT AWAY?

A:* No. Because anything that is just given away is never taken by anybody. The higher the cost, the better people will keep it, save it in their treasuries. Give it free, and it has no value, because people don't understand value unless it has a price. They understand price, they don't understand value.

Q:* IN THAT CASE, HOW MUCH ARE YOU GOING TO CHARGE ME FOR THE GRAPES?

A:* Nothing.

Q:* SO, NO VALUE?

A:* I know that if you eat those grapes your program is going to be for me. Just taste something sweet, so you are not bitter on television. It is all profit-making business! I am a very simple man, and truthful. If you are shy about eating right now, when I go, please....

[the cameraman has problems] Q:* I WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU TO REPEAT SOME OF THE WORDS YOU JUST SAID... WHY BLISS HAS TO BE SOLD.... WHY YOU SELL BLISS.

COULD YOU GRANT US THREE MORE MINUTES?

A:* I can, but I cannot repeat what I have said; I will say something else.

I don't believe in repetition.

Everything in this world has to be achieved. You have to pay a price for it, and the bigger the price you pay for it, the higher is your estimate of it. If bliss, ecstasy, joy, were all available, like water, free -- nobody will be able to appreciate their value.

You don't know the real value of water unless you have been thirsty in a desert.

While he was in India, Alexander was asked by a great Master, "If you are in a desert and thirsty and I have a full bottle of water, how much will you be ready to pay for it?" Alexander said, "I will pay half my empire in such a situation." But the Master said, "I will not sell until you pay me the full empire. Why should I sell? If you are willing to pay half, that is indication enough that if I just wait a little more, the customer is going to feel more thirsty and is going to pay the full empire."

And Alexander agreed that perhaps he would give the whole empire. And the Master laughed. He said, "Then what are you doing? Wasting your whole life for a bottle of water? Are you stupid or something?"

The world understands things in its own way. Otherwise, my bliss is freely available to anybody who can appreciate it, who is vulnerable to it, who is open to receive it. There is no price tag on it. But those who cannot understand anything unless they pay for it -- for those poor people, we have to put a price on everything. It is out of compassion.

That's why I said my answer will not be the same.

Q:* BHAGWAN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

A:* I enjoyed it.

The Last Testament, Vol 1