Chapter 08

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

QUESTION: INDIA IS GOING THROUGH A CRITICAL PERIOD. WHY DO YOU FEEL TAMIL LANKA(*) CONFLICTS HAVE INCREASED? CAN OUR POLITICIANS RESOLVE THESE PROBLEMS WHICH (INAUDIBLE) SEE THE COUNTRY HAVING?

A: India has been going through a critical period always. It is not new. And it is not unfortunate either. Only dead countries don't go through critical periods. It is just like a living man goes through critical periods of health of sickness, of poverty of richness. A dead man is beyond any critical change. Any nation which is dead never goes through critical phases.

So the first point I would like to emphasize is, that to pass through critical phases is a blessing. It means change. It means progress. It means evolution. I don't look towards critical stages through negative eyes. To me, it is something very positive, very alive.

I am reminded of an old saying, that when Adam and Eve, the first human beings, were thrown out of the paradise of God, Adam said to Eve, "We are going through a critical stage." Since then, man has been going on through critical stages.

Q: (INAUDIBLE) THE GOVERNMENT AND THE POLITICIANS. SO HOW WILL WE COME OUT OF THIS?

A: Just wait. Let me first answer your question. Unless you know my whole answer, any question will be simply an interference. So be patient. The second point I would like to emphasize is that India has never been a nation. In the days of Gautam Buddha there were two thousand kingdoms in India, and I appreciate it. My appreciation is based on a certain conception of freedom.

India has always been a metaphor, a philosophical concept, a spiritual unity, but never a political nation. This allowed different languages to evolve, different cultures to evolve, different individualities to evolve, and the country was not monotonous; it was a beautiful garden of different flowers, different colors, different perfumes. And we allowed it, because the variety is richness. There was an inner current that joined people, but it was not political; it was spiritual. The Bengali had his own language, his own culture, his own way of living, his own individuality. The Punjabi had a totally different language, a totally different way of living and a totally different way of individuality. They were not the same; but still remaining individuals independent from each other there was an inner current of spiritual feeling.

So India has remained always a spiritual feeling, a spiritual colorfulness; not the monotonous boring one language, one culture, one religion. It was unfortunate that India became a slave country, invaded by many people, and the two invaders particularly -- the Moguls and the British -- they tried to create a political nation out of a spiritual freedom. They forced India to become a political nation. It was under force, under violence.

Remember these two different concepts. A spiritual feeling is one thing; it does not make you a slave, it allows you space to be yourself. But a political, united nation tries to destroy the variety. For example, Britain imposed English as one language for the whole country. This was very destructive. It took away the dignity of Bengali, of Punjabi, of Urdu, of Hindi, of Malayalam. The Mohammedans tried the same, to impose Urdu as a national language. India is not a nation in that sense. It is a continent, and it can be kept as a nation only through violence.

Winston Churchill, before India became free -- he was no more the prime minister of England -- made a very pertinent remark. He said, "The moment Britain leaves India, it will fall apart into pieces." He was right. He knew that India's remaining a nation is forced; it is not an inner growth. And that's what happened. The moment India became independent, first it was divided into two countries -- Pakistan, Hindustan; then Bangladesh separated from Pakistan. Now the same is being done by the Sikhs, the same desire to be independent, and I don't see there is anything wrong in it. I would like to see India a spiritual unity, but I would not like it to remain forced into a political nation.

But the political leaders would like it to remain one country, because bigger the country is, the bigger is their power. It would be a far more beautiful land if Bengalis, Punjabis, Tamils, and other linguistic groups, particularly as far as politics is concerned, are totally independent. I would love to see India have thirty prime ministers and thirty presidents. It will not be a loss. I would love to see India in the UNO having thirty seats. Why just one vote? You can have thirty votes. And the spiritual unity remains. From South India, from the North, from the East, from the West, they all come together in a Kumbhamela in Prayag to have a dip in the holy Ganges. Their soul remains one.

It will be a great day when India becomes not a political nation -- as it is now it is British heritage, it is part of the British slavery -- but becomes a confederation of independent nations. You can see in simple matters. After forty years you have not been able to make a single national language, and I say you will not be able in four thousand years either. And there is no need, because each language has its own flavor, has its own beauty. Why should one language be imposed on other languages? Why should one religion be imposed on other religions? Why should one particular kind of personality be imposed on the whole of India?

Why make it a monotonous continent?

But the politicians cannot solve the problem. Their problem is not the problem of the country, it is not the problem of you. It is their own ambition and their own ego. Now you have one president, one prime minister. If India becomes a confederation, a spiritual congregation, naturally politicians' power will be reduced. And whoever gets to the power does not want to lose it. He wants to increase it, at whatever cost.

I have moved around the country many times, and I see the beautiful variety of languages, of clothes, of food, of culture, of character. Don't bulldoze it. Urdu has its own refined etiquette. Bengali has its own music, which no other language can replace. Bengali has its own literature, which has risen to the highest peaks.

The same is true about other languages, different dimensions.

Your question is: why are castes, creeds, falling apart? They have always been separate. They were forced on the point of guns to remain within a political unity. Why were you so much interested in being independent from Britain?

What was the point? They were doing perfectly well, they were experienced. The whole freedom fight loses meaning. But no, you wanted to have your own identity. And when Bangladesh was trying to be separate from Pakistan -- which was a natural phenomenon, there was nothing common between Pakistan and Bangladesh, except their religion....

So religion does not need any political unity. Religion is individual. It is your communion with the divine. But Bangladesh had its own language, its own culture, its own poetry, its own music. It was destructive to remain with Pakistan, because Pakistan has none of those qualities, it has its own ways. And you see the mind of politicians: Indira Gandhi helped Bangladesh to be separated from Pakistan. Now these are double standards. Now Punjab wants to have its own independence, the same principle should be followed. They have their own religion, they have their own dances, they have their own songs, they have their own literature, and they would like to be free from all the burden of other people. You can see, the Sikh has a personality of his own, and his demand to be independent has to be supported by all freedom loving people.

Instead of supporting them, Sikhs are being killed, their holy temple has been captured by the military. In retaliation they are killing Hindus, and it is such a strange thing because they have lived for five hundred years in one of the most beautiful ways. It has not happened anywhere else in the world. In the same family the husband may be a Hindu, and the wife may be a Sikh, or vice versa.

The father may be a Sikh and the son may be a Hindu. There was no problem.

Religion is an individual affair. Nowhere in the world, in the same house you will find two religions. That strange flowering has happened in Punjab. And you can see how small things make such a difference, because five hundred years ago they were all Hindus, accepting the teachings of Nanak, accepting a different individuality, a different psychology. Now you can see, the Sikh and the Hindu are totally different.

I have come in contact with every culture in India. You can rely on a Sikh. He is the most sincere in this whole country. Just the change of language, the change of religion, the change of living has created a totally different kind of man -- and a beautiful man. And I love variety; I don't want that the whole world should be full of rose flowers. Rose flowers are beautiful, but if the whole world is full of rose flowers they will lose their beauty. Millions of types of flowers are there.

That makes the world rich.

And what has happened in Punjab is going to happen in other parts of the country too, sooner or later. It happened in Punjab first because they have guts.

In five hundred years they have created a brave man, a warrior, a certain discipline, a certain readiness to die for any cause they think is worth dying for.

That's why they are the first; and you will not be able by your army and by your ugly forces to repress it. Either Sikhs will remain an independent country, or they would like to die completely. While the last Sikh remains, their fight will continue. And for that fight, they are not responsible.

Please note this point: they are not responsible for the fight. They had simply asked for freedom. It could have been given lovingly, and they would have remained your friends. You have created the enemy in your own home. Whoever wants to be free, help him to be free, because freedom is the ultimate value. Help him to stand on his own feet so that the spiritual connectedness of these people remains the same. If my idea is understood correctly, and is not corrupted, distorted, then even Pakistan and Bangladesh will become part of the greater India, a confederation.

India can only be a continent, it can never be a nation. They can all be together as far as their defence is concerned. Except defence, they can be absolutely independent. For their growth, they can have their own national language, they can have their own national character.

You are asking why suddenly this is happening. It is not happening suddenly.

The force that was keeping you together is no more there. It was the slavery that was keeping you together. It is freedom that is allowing you to be on your own.

Why hang with each other? And is economically sane too.

If India becomes thirty nations, the burden of problems is divided. It is no more on one nation. Those thirty nations will find their own solutions of their own problems. Freedom brings responsibility. This is one reason.

Second reason, Hindus for five thousand years after Manu and his ugly book MANUSMRITI have lived in a strange way. It is only in India that caste system exists. Its implications are very significant. You are born a brahmin. You may not have a single quality of a brahmin, but you will be worshipped. You are born a sudra. You may have the quality of a brahmin.

The Indian constitution was not made by a brahmin; it was made by Dr.

Ambedkar, who was a sudra. He was called to make the constitution because he had the keenest intellect as far as law and constitutions are concerned.

Shankaracharyas were not called.

Birth decides nothing. Your actions, your life, your character is decisive. But Hinduism has remained divided according to birth. It has no mobility, no movement. A sudra cannot become a brahmin. This is ugly. A vaishya cannot become a warrior. Lines are drawn from the very birth. The society has lived in a dead way.

Life needs movement.

If a sudra can attain to wisdom, he should be a brahmin; and if a brahmin can make beautiful shoes he should be a sudra. And there should be no question who is higher and who is lower. The question should be whether your shoes that you make are artistic, stable(*).

I am reminded of Abraham Lincoln, when he became the president of America.

He could have never become the president of India. Although Mahatma Gandhi all his life told a lie, that the first president of India will be a sudra. But when India became free, he completely forgot about it. Not only a sudra, but a sudra woman would be the first president.But nobody bothered about it. Neither he mentioned about it. It was simply political (inaudible). A lie that politicians are expert in spreading to win the votes, the support of the sudras.

Now for the first time, sudras are allowed in the schools. They were not allowed; for five thousand years they were not allowed even to listen to religious scriptures.

There was no possibility of Abraham Lincoln to become a president of India, and he was one of the best presidents that the world has produced. But he was a sudra according to Hindu (inaudible) classification. He was a son of a shoemaker, and even in America people were offended. Aristocrats, millionaires, and the son of a shoemaker. Before he gave his first address to the senate, one senator, just to make a mockery of him, stood up, and said, "Mr. Abraham Lincoln, by chance you have become the president, but don't forget who you are.

Your father used to make shoes for me, for my family, always remember that, that you are a shoemaker's son."

Abraham Lincoln was a rare man. His eyes were filled by tears. He said, "I am grateful to you, that you reminded me about my father. I know perfectly well that I cannot be a better president than he was a shoemaker. He was a better shoemaker than I can ever be a better(*) president. He was a better man than me.

He was a perfect (inaudible) and I want to ask you why, suddenly, my father's name has come to your mind. I can see you are wearing the shoes which were made by my father.Are they pinching(*)? I am not a great shoemaker, but from the childhood, sitting by my father, helping him, I have learned a little art. If somebody's shoes is giving trouble to anybody, I can mend it. It must be pinching, otherwise how you remembered? I will come tomorrow morning to your house and repair whatsoever is needed, whatever I can do, although it will not be so perfect. My father was absolutely perfect, and I feel, deep down, that I will never be a better president than he was a better shoemaker."

The aristocrat was thinking that he is going to create a mockery of Lincoln. It backfired. There was utter silence in the senate; they had not expected such answer.

But in India even the person like Rama, whom you think as a partial incarnation of God, was after all a Hindu chauvinist. Some brahmin's son died; now, everybody who is born dies. And that brahmin, came with the dead body of his son to Rama, and he said, "Something very sinister is happening in the kingdom, otherwise before the father a son could not die."

A great search was made and the brahmin found that a sudra hiding behind the bushes used to listen to the RIG VEDA that brahmins were reading. This was the sin. The sudra was brought to Rama. This single act is enough to reject Rama completely. There is no justice, no fairness, no relatedness even; but because he has heard the mantra RIG VEDA which are privated(*), melted lead was poured into both his ears, so that he can never hear again anything. And this is being done by Rama.

People are angry with me on strange things. Truth hurts.

Now can you call this man an incarnation of God? At least for God there should be no brahmin, no sudra, no *chhatriya, no vaishya. They are all his creation. He should be the father of all. And what justice is there? He destroyed his both ears for his whole life. According to me, that sudra may have reached paradise, but Rama cannot reach. He should be in hell. He has to be in hell.

Now sudras are studying in schools, colleges, universities. Otherwise how you can produce a Dr. Ambedkar? Naturally, the sudras want to be treated as human beings. You have treated the sudras for thousands of years as cattle. Even worse.

Even the shadow of the sudra, says Manu, is untouchable. Even the shadow, which does not exist, if the sudra passes by and his shadow falls on you, you have to take a bath.

So what difficult times India is passing, are absolutely supported by me. These are days of revolution, revolution from all kinds of slavery: political, religious, spiritual.

No religion accepts women equal to men. Jainism says that a woman cannot go to heaven directly, she first has to be born as a man, then she can only reach heaven. But one woman, who must have been of immense courage, and immense intelligence, attained to enlightenment in this life; must have been a charismatic personality, that even Jainas has to accept her as one of their tirthankaras.

Jainas has a very limited quota -- twenty-four tirthankaras in one creation. And the creation is billions and billions of light years. Their twenty-fourth tirthankara has happened. There is no possibility now for anybody to become a tirthankara.

Twenty-fifth tirthankara does not happen. This woman, whose name was Mallibai, became a tirthankara. The word tirthankara means `the path finder':

one who has found the path, traveled the path, reached the goal. But what ugliness Jainas have done which is unbelievable, they changed the name in their scriptures of Mallibai to Mallinath, so anybody reading Jaina scriptures will never have any idea that in twenty-four tirthankaras there is one woman. Go to a Jaina temple, where twenty-four tirthankaras' statues are there. All are of men.

Not a single statue is of a woman.

In my childhood, I asked my father that "On the gate of the temple is written `Satyameva jayate', truth always becomes victorious.But show me in these twenty-four statues, who is Mallibai? They are all men, there is no woman (inaudible). You have been cheating, you have been cunning. Your saints, your scholars, all have been deceiving humanity for twenty-five centuries to hide a simple fact that if spirituality has nothing to do with the body, whether you have the body of a man, or a woman, does not matter. You have the same consciousness. And consciousness is neither man nor woman.

Q: I AM SORRY TO INTERRUPT YOU, BUT I HAVE THREE OR FOUR QUESTIONS AND ONLY ABOUT HALF AN HOUR IS LEFT FOR THE TALK.

A: I will answer your four questions in four minutes. You don't interrupt me, because all your questions, other questions, are rubbish. Only this question was pertinent, and useful for the country. That's why I am answering it. If this question was not there, you would not have been here either.

Q: I HAVE COME FOR AN INTERVIEW; I SHALL COME IN THE EVENINGS FOR A DISCOURSE BUT YOU HAVE ANSWERED MY FIRST QUESTION, AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO GO ON TO THE REMAINING QUESTIONS.

A: I have not answered it yet. You have come to my interview; you have to be patient. I am not a politician who can be threatened by a journalist.

Q: I AM NOT THREATENING YOU, BHAGWAN, I AM JUST EXPLAINING MY POSITION, THAT I HAVE COME HERE FOR AN INTERVIEW, WITH A LIST OF QUESTIONS WHICH YOU HAVE SEEN, AND WE HAVE ONLY HALF AN HOUR OR SO LEFT, AND I WOULD LIKE...

A: I know Q: ... WHATEVER YOU THINK OF THE QUESTIONS, I WOULD LIKE TO ANSWER TO THOSE QUESTIONS BEFORE I GO. I MEAN A: Okay Q: DO YOU SEE YOUR RETURN TO INDIA AS THE END OF THE PHASE OF YOUR QUEST?

A: No. Because the spiritual quest is an eternal quest. It has no end. Second question.

Q: FOR A LONG TIME YOU PROPOUNDED A PHILOSOPHY WHICH ALLOWED FOR FREE EXPRESSION OF FEELINGS BY DEVOTEES. THE SEXUAL PRACTICES IN YOUR ASHRAM RECEIVED PARTICULAR ATTENTION FROM THE MEDIA. NOW WITH YOUR DISILLUSIONMENT WITH MANKIND, DO YOU SEE A CHANGE IN YOUR BASIC TEACHING?

A: No. I don't see any change in me. And the news media has given attention to my ideas about sex, because they are all sex maniacs. Suppressed sex.

I have four hundred books, and only one book on sex. Three hundred ninety nine books have received no response from news media. Only one book... and that book is also not about sexuality; that book is how to transform sex into superconsciousness. The name of the book is FROM SEX TO SUPERCONSCIOUSNESS. Nobody from the news media bothers about superconsciousness. They are simply interested in sex. Sex maniacs.

Go on, third question.

Q: BUT WHEN YOU CAME BACK YOU SAID YOU WERE DISILLUSIONED WITH MANKIND, YOU SAID THAT THE THIRD WORLD WAR WOULD BE A GOOD SOLUTION. SO, I MEAN, DOES THIS BRING ABOUT A CHANGE IN THE WAY YOU LOOK AT MANKIND?

A: No. I was not aware about the whole mankind. I was living in this country, and I was living with my sannyasins. And I thought my sannyasins represent human beings.

They certainly represent human beings, because they have dropped their masks.

I had gone for a world tour, to see, and I found that every human being is hiding behind a mask, is false, is bogus, is not worth saving. That's why I said there is only one hope for mankind, and that is a nuclear third world war. This rotten humanity should be finished. Nobody will be able to say this, what I am saying, because nobody has the guts to say this.

Only those who have attained to consciousness from now onwards I will be interested in them. The remaining humanity for me is already dead. I am not interested in it.

Q: (INAUDIBLE) YOU HAD PROBLEMS IN THE U.S. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHETHER IT WAS ALSO BECAUSE OF THE FAILURE OF THE SECTION(*) OF YOUR DEVOTEES TO LIVE UP TO YOUR TEACHINGS?

A: No. It was the success of my devotees to live up to my standard that created the problem to the American government. It is always success that creates problems. Who cares about failure? You are not jealous of beggars(*), you are jealous of those who have succeeded in life.

My commune was the first commune in the whole history of man which succeeded in every possible way. And that was the trouble with American government, because Americans they started asking them, that if these people can live so lovingly, so blissfully, so richly, so self-sufficiently in a desert, which has not been cultivated, ever, then what you are doing with billions of dollars?

Why America has thirty million beggars?

You are trying to reach to moon, and your people are dying on the streets; thirty million people. And there are other thirty million people who are dying in hospitals, because they eat too much. So are you insane or what? Sixty million people can be easily saved within a single moment; just a little consciousness, that you are eating somebody else' food, and killing yourself, and killing him.

You can save yourself and save the other person. In my commune there was no currency, there was no money used, because every need was fulfilled by the commune. If five thousand people can live without money... I have not seen a single dollar bill in five years in America. There was no need. We were growing our food, our milk products, our vegetables, our fruits; we were doing everything, making our houses, our roads, and we had made the desert blossom in an oasis.

This became the problem, not the failure. The success became the problem. I invited Ronald Reagan, I invited the governor of Oregon, that just come and see what is happening here. People are working, five thousand people are eating together in one kitchen, and by the end, as the sunsets, the whole valley, all the mountains around it, start filling with dances, flutes, people are singing, dancing, to the midnight. In the morning they start with meditation, and the night they fall asleep with music.

If this can happen to five thousand people, why it cannot happen to everybody?

This was their problem. And just few days before the Attorney General of America has accepted it unknowingly. He was asked why Bhagwan was not imprisoned. He answered that "Our priority was to destroy the commune, because the commune was becoming a problem to us.Nobody could use money in the commune, so you may be a billionaire, and you may be a beggar, but nobody was rich, nobody was poor. If you cannot use your money in the commune, your money is useless. Without enforcing any dictatorship of the proletariat, we managed to create a higher quality of communism.

That was the problem for the American politicians. It became more problematic than Soviet Union, because Soviet Union is still poor. And the commune was becoming richer, because everybody was productive, and everybody was sharing. A commune of five thousand people had five hundred cars, five airplanes, one hundred air conditioned buses, and nowhere to go. Americans were coming and seeing and they were amazed, that how you had managed all this? And we had not asked any American to donate, we had not accepted any American donations. It was sannyasins themselves, whatsoever they had brought or produced by their work. Our success has been the problem.

Q: WHAT DO YOU PLAN TO DO IN INDIA NOW? WILL YOU SET UP AN ASHRAM, BECAUSE RAJIV GANDHI'S GOVERNMENT HAS DENIED PERMISSION ONCE TO YOU; SO WILL YOU TRY AND RECREATE THIS ASHRAM IN INDIA?

A: No. I am not going to create any ashram in India. Sannyasins can create ashrams in India. They are capable now, there is no need for me. I can inaugurate their ashrams! My work is going to be resting few days in India, and then moving around the world because I have so many communes all over the world, in every country. Up to now, sannyasins were coming to me. That is uneconomical. Now I will be going to each commune, living four five weeks, whatsoever their government is capable to tolerate. Here will be my resting place, not an ashram. When all governments are tired, I will be resting here. But I am not going to create any ashram or anything. Now sannyasins are perfectly aware what has to be done, and they are doing.

Everywhere new ashrams, new communes, are being made around the world, new centers are opened; and they are all inviting me, because I have told them not to come here. This is going to be just a resting place for me. My jet plane will be standing on the airport, and any moment I will start moving around the world. That way, I will be coming in contact with more sannyasins, more intimately, living with them. In short, I am going to change this whole world and this world's intelligent people into sannyasins, and leaving the responsibility to create communes and sannyas ashramas on them. And they are doing perfectly well.

Just in one country, Germany, there are six communes where thousands of sannyasins are living. German government is afraid, German parliament has resolved that I should not be allowed to enter in Germany. They are not afraid of my entry. They are afraid of the German youth, and the six communes, because I have at least twenty thousand sannyasins in Germany.

Rajiv Gandhi cannot prevent my creating ashramas. I have thousands of sannyasins in India. If I want to create any ashram, any commune, Rajiv Gandhi will be risking his own premiership.

Q: THANK YOU.