Chapter 05
[NOTE: This discourse will be in the book "India Coming Back Home", which has not been published, as of August 1992.]
PRESS INTERVIEWS
Q: WHAT DID YOU LEARN ON YOUR JUST COMPLETED WORLD TOUR?
A: With great pain in my heart I have to convey to you that man, as he is today, is not worth fighting for.
I have come home with dreams broken, fictions destroyed, hopes shattered.
What I have seen is the reality, and what I had been thinking all my life about man was only his mask.
I will give you a few examples because the whole world tour would take almost a month to relate to you. So I will give only a few significant points which can indicate... Before me, from the East, Vivekananda, Ramateertha, Krishnamurti and hundreds of others have gone around the world, but no one was once condemned by the whole world the way I have been condemned -- because they all behaved politically.
In a Christian country they would praise Christianity, in a Mohammedan country they would praise Mohammedanism. Naturally, in a Christian country if a man from the East, who is not Christian, praises Jesus Christ as highly as he praises Gautam Buddha, naturally Christians are happy, immensely happy. And none of these people have converted any Christians from the West to the Eastern vision of things, the Eastern way of life.
Meanwhile, the West has been sending its missionaries and converting millions of Eastern people to Christianity. Perhaps I was the first person who has converted thousands of young, educated, intelligent people into the Eastern way of thinking and living. And that shocked the religious vested interests in the West, the political vested interests in the West to such an extent that it was unbelievable. I would not have believed it myself if I had not gone on the world tour.
The whole of Europe has a parliament and that parliament has decided that my plane cannot land on any airport in Europe. The question of my entering their country does not arise -- I cannot even land my plane for refueling on their airport. And the reason has been given that I am a dangerous man. I cannot see the logic -- refueling my airplane, what danger can I do to a country in fifteen minutes?
In England, I arrived at eleven in the night. The pilot's flying time was finished and he had to rest for twelve hours, and they wouldn't allow me to rest in the airport. I told them, "In the airport, special facilities are made for transit passengers who will be staying for a few hours and will leave. I am not entering England."
But they said, "We are sorry. Orders from above are that "this man is dangerous, he can destroy your religion, he can destroy your morality, he should not be allowed in the country."
I said, "I am not entering the country. The airport is not the country. And in taking five, six hours of sleep at the airport I cannot conceive how I can destroy your morality and your religion and your tradition. And if it is possible that a man, just by sleeping in the first class lounge at the airport for six hours, can destroy a religion and morality which has been preached for two thousand years, then it is worth destroying."
On the second day, in the British parliament, the question was asked, "Why was he prevented?"
And the same answer was given: that I am dangerous to morality, to religion, to tradition. The strange thing is that in the whole parliament not a single member asked, "What can a man do in the middle of the night, tired, sleeping, and leaving again at six o'clock in the morning? In what way can he destroy your Christianity which you have been preaching -- conditioning each child from his very childhood -- for two thousand years? If your two thousand years of teaching can be destroyed in six hours, then there must be something wrong with your teaching."
Even countries where I was not going, their parliaments decided that I should not be allowed into the country.
One small country, Uruguay, allowed me to enter because the president had been reading my writings, listening to my tapes -- a young man, intelligent. He gave me a six months' visa to stay, he wanted to see me. But the moment I entered Uruguay, American pressure became tremendously hot and the American president told the Uruguayan president that if I was not thrown out of Uruguay within thirty-six hours then all the loans that had been given to Uruguay in the past, billions of dollars, would have to be paid back immediately.
If they could not be paid, then the rate of interest would be doubled from tomorrow.
Secondly, America said,"All the agreements that are being made for the coming five years" -- which again amounted to billions of dollars of loans to Uruguay -- "are cancelled. You can choose, you are free. You can have this man or you can have our support."
You will be surprised, it was reported that the president, with tears in his eyes, said, "Rajneesh's coming to Uruguay has at least given me one insight: that we are not independent."
I had to leave within thirty-six hours, because a poor country like Uruguay cannot manage to pay the billions of dollars they owe from the past, nor to be cut off from future loans. I told the president of Uruguay, "You need not be worried, I can understand the condition. You will feel bad if you deport me. I am leaving on my own so you will not feel bad." And as I left, the president of Uruguay received an invitation from Washington to meet President Ronald Reagan. He was given a great welcome and a three hundred and sixty million dollar immediate loan, for which there was no agreement made before -- a reward.
The old slavery has disappeared it seems; politically, humanity seems to be no longer a slave. But a far deeper slavery, economic slavery, has entered in.
I moved around almost the whole world and in every country the same situation was repeated, again and again. I would reach the country, and before me, an American plane would arrive to contact the president or the prime minister and inform him of the danger.
The president of Uruguay told me that it would be better for me to stop my world tour, because he was concerned about my life. What he had heard in the White House is that they have a contract with a professional assassinator for half a million dollars, if he can kill me. A single man without any arms, and the biggest, most powerful country in the world is so afraid?
The attorney general of America told the press that he does not want to hear my name, does not want to see my face in any newspaper, in any news magazine; he does not want to know whether I am still alive or dead. I should be completely erased. And what crime have I committed? Just to think is the greatest crime; and to show people that they are wrong is the greatest crime.
I was in Greece at the invitation of the president of Greece. I accepted the invitation because I wanted to see who the people are who killed a man like Socrates.
In the East we have worshipped Gautam Buddha -- they were contemporaries.
Both Budddha and Socrates have the same qualities of tremendous intelligence, both have the consciousness to raise man to higher planes of being. We worshipped Gautam Buddha and Greece poisoned Socrates. I wanted to see what kind of people these are.
A one month visa was given to me, and within fifteen days the archbishop of Greece declared that if I was not turned out of Greece that very moment, then he was going to burn me alive with all my friends in the house where I was a guest.
I was asleep at the time when the police arrived. Just two weeks -- only two more weeks I was going to be there. My secretary in Greece told the police, "You sit in the waiting room and I will wake him up, let him wash his face and change his clothes."
They would not wait for five minutes. They said, "We will burn the house. We have brought dynamite," and they showed dynamite.
And they threw the girl who was my secretary from a high platform to the gravel road, dragged her to the police car without any arrest warrant, without any reason. Her only fault was that she had said to the police, "Please wait five minutes so I can wake him up."
I woke suddenly, I could not believe what was happening -- because I don't have nightmares. It seemed as if bombs were exploding, because the police had started throwing stones at doors, at windows; they threw rocks in to the house. I rushed down, I inquired, "What is the matter?"
And they said, "You have to leave this very moment because the archbishop of the Orthodox Christian church does not want you to be here."
I said, "There is no problem. I did not come on my own, I have been invited. This is an insult to the president of Greece, and to me it is a confirmation that you are the people who must have killed Socrates. Because I have been here only two weeks and have never left my house. Socrates had been here his whole life. In twenty-five centuries you have not changed, you are still brutes."
I went around the world, there was experience after experience of the same kind.
All democracy is fake, all ideology about freedom, freedom of speech, is fake; All hope that someday man will become human seems to be a far away utopia.
I have always believed in non-violence, believed in peace, but after this world tour I have to confess to you that I cannot believe in peace and non-violence any more. I have been against the third world war, but with great pain I have to tell you that perhaps the third world war is needed. This humanity is so rotten that it should be destroyed, at least the world should be cleaned of ugly human beings.
Existence must find some other way to evolve human consciousness.
Scientists say that there are fifty thousand planets in the universe where life exists. So if on this tiny earth life disappears, there is no harm. This kind of life is not the life of man. Darwin was absolutely wrong that man has evolved out of monkeys -- man is still a monkey. Perhaps he has fallen from the trees, that's all.
Not evolved, but fallen.
My effort from today will be just to work for those few individuals who want to grow into meditation, into peace, into silence; and I drop all hope for humanity and all hope for this planet. It is in ugly hands and it is impossible to change those people because they have all the power.
Even in my own country... just yesterday as I entered I saw, written at the airport, "Welcome to India." I had no luggage, I had nothing to declare except myself, and still I had to wait for three hours. And I asked again and again, "What kind of welcome are you giving to an Indian? I am not a tourist."
This ugly bureaucracy, these ugly governments, these ugly religions, have spoiled a beautiful planet. I have called you simply to say that I am utterly disappointed, disillusioned. I will live only for those people who are individually interested to evolve.
As a humanity, there is no hope. Only one thing I can hope -- the sooner the third world war happens the better. Let us be finished with all this garbage.
Q: DO YOU PLAN TO SETTLE IN INDIA?
A: Yes.
Q: WHY DID YOU LEAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE?
A: Because of you.
Q: CAN YOU CLARIFY THAT, PLEASE?
A: I had been working in India for thirty years, and thousands of Westerners started coming to India to listen to me; they invited me to their countries. I thought this was a good opportunity for the East, because the West has always dominated the East; it has made it a slave materialistically, politically, for hundreds of years. The only answer from the East can be a spiritual conquest of the West -- that's why I went there.
They can give us bread, we can give them soul. They can give us shelters, we can give them life.
They are hollow, there is nothing inside them. We may be poor but spiritually we are rich. Their effort is to make us more and more poor because only poor people can be converted to Christianity. And they became my enemies, as a whole, because I was appealing not to the poor, not to the orphans, not to the beggars; but to the professors, the surgeons, the scientists, the painters, the musicians -- to their genius, their very cream.
It is a deep humiliation to them. Otherwise it has never happened in history that the whole world should be against a single man. I am fortunate in that way.
Q: THE HARE KRISHNA MOVEMENT HAS NOT BEEN EXPELLED FROM THE WEST. OTHER INDIAN SPIRITUAL LEADERS HAVE NOT BEEN DENOUNCED IN THE WEST. WHY ARE YOU THE ONLY ONE TO SUFFER THIS PERSECUTION?
A: For the simple reason that the Hare Krishna movement has never said a single word against Christ.
On the contrary, the Hare Krishna movement has been telling the West that Christ is only another name of Krishna. Naturally, people are happy, there is no problem. Krishnamurti never condemned, never criticized, any religion by name.
This was pure politics.
Vivekananda praised Christianity as much as he praised anything else, so why should they be against him?. But I simply say the truth, I am not saying what you want to hear. I am saying what is the reality. I cannot say that Jesus Christ walked on water -- that is nonsense. If it is true, then the pope should at least walk on a swimming pool -- being the representative of Jesus Christ.
They say Jesus Christ is born out of a virgin girl. This they call morality. Just the other day I was reading a joke: A young girl, seventeen years old, became pregnant. The mother was shocked. She took her to the doctor, the doctor examined the girl. The girl asked the doctor, "I have never met any man. No man has ever touched me, never kissed me -- how can I be pregnant?"
The doctor went to the window, opened the window, and looked at the stars; a few minutes passed. The mother said, "What is the matter? What are you doing there?"
He said, "This has happened only once, when Jesus Christ was born, but then a star appeared. I am looking for the star again. Without a man, how can this girl become pregnant? And I don't see any star, I don't see any three wise men from the East coming to worship."
Scientifically, it is so absurd. I have even challenged the pope that I am ready to argue with him in the Vatican amongst his people. He cannot prove a single thing about Christ. His whole religion stands on superstition: Jesus touches people and they are healed, he makes dead people come alive. Just think of a person today who makes dead people alive, touches people and they are healed, walks on water... will he not be the topmost news? But in the contemporary literature of that time Jesus' name is not even mentioned -- except in the Christian BIBLE. No other writing even mentions his name, such a man who turns water into wine; although that is not a miracle, it is a crime.
Krishnamurti or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or Yogananda or Vivekananda... none of them touched these sore spots, that's why they have not been condemned.
And this is the whole of Christianity. We have known higher religions, we don't depend on Jesus walking on water to be religious. Otherwise, what would have happened to Gautam Buddha? He never walked on water. -- What would have happened to Krishna? He never walked on water. These people never raised dead people back to life. If Jesus is the criterion of religion then all religions are meaningless. But Jesus is not the criterion.
He is claiming that he is the only begotten son of God. As far as I am concerned, I have been telling the West that Jesus is a crackpot. Naturally they are offended.
Why should God create only one son? Since eternity he has been trying and he has been able to create only one son? and here even Indian beggars go on creating sons every year. And the way he creates his son is not moral, it is absolutely immoral. Somebody else's wife... you just try to make her pregnant and you will know whether it is morality or it is immorality.
In the Christian trinity there is no space for a woman. There is God the father, God the son, and the Holy Ghost. Who is this Holy Ghost guy, man or woman? It seems he functions both ways -- perhaps he is a bisexual.
To see things as they are is one thing. I am not interested in convincing anybody, I am simply interested in bringing the truth to people, and truth hurts. Lies are very sweet. They can be made sweeter, because you create them.
Who are the three wise men who came to Jerusalem from the East to celebrate Jesus? Their names are not mentioned, because even today no truly wise man will accept Christianity as a religion.
I have heard about one famous Japanese sage, Rinzai. A high Christian priest went to Rinzai with the BIBLE to convert him. He opened it to the Sermon on the Mount, which is the only beautiful chapter in the BIBLE, otherwise the BIBLE is one of the most pornographic books in the whole word. Five hundred solid pages of pornography. If it is called the HOLY BIBLE, then what is unholy?
He opened it to the Sermon on the Mount, he read two lines; Rinzai said, "Stop.
Sometime in the future this man will become a buddha, but not now."
The first two lines were, "Blessed are the poor because they shall inherit the kingdom of God," and "A camel can pass through the eye of a needle, but a rich man cannot pass through the gates of heaven."
At this point Rinzai said, "Stop."
If poverty is a blessing then we should spread poverty. Then the more poor the world is, the more blessed. Then more people will be in heaven. If richness is such a sin that, `the camel can pass through the eye of a needle but a rich man cannot pass through the gates of heaven', then all rich people should distribute their riches and become poor beggars.
This is not religion, this is sheer politics -- a consolation for the poor, "Don't be worried, it is only a question of a few years and you will be in the presence of God." And an effort to prevent revolution -- "Don't be angry about the rich men.
They are going to suffer in eternal hell."
Remember the phrase `eternal hell'. No other religion of the world believes in eternal hell. How many sins can you commit in one life? Christianity believes in only one life. How many sins can you commit? Even if you start committing from the very first day you are born, and until the last breath you go on committing sins: don't eat, don't sleep, don't do anything, only commit sin. Even then eternal punishment will not be the right judgment.
One of the most important philosophers of this age, Bertrand Russell, born a Christian, wrote a book called, WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN. One of his reasons was, "I have committed sins and I have dreamt of committing sins. If they both are joined together, the hardest judge cannot sentence me to more than four and a half years of jail. But eternal hell? no exit? Once you go into hell you will remain there forever?" These are stupid things with no logic behind them.
I have been condemned because I believe there are two types of people in the world; one which wants that the truth should always be behind him, and the other which wants that he should always be behind the truth. I belong to the second category. The names that you have mentioned belong to the first category. And that is the difference between a mystic and a politician.
It hurts, because from the very childhood you have been brought up with a certain way of thinking. Jesus is crucified -- just think -- a man who brings people alive after four days of death! And killed by his own people... because he was a Jew, remember, he never was a Christian, he never heard the word 'Christian'.
He was never known as Christ in his own times because the word 'Christ' is a Greek word. Hebrew has no word like 'Christ' or 'Christian'. And Jesus was absolutely uneducated, he had no knowledge even of Hebrew. He spoke a small local dialect -- Aramaic. He was born a Jew, he lived as a Jew, he died as a Jew.
The boy was doing great because he died when he was only thirty-three. Jews would have hailed him as God. If you can hail a Satya Sai Baba just because he can produce stupid things, Swiss watches or a holy ass, and you can worship him as God... then Jesus has really done miracles -- if he actually did them.
Jews would have respected him forever. But they crucified him. Not only did they crucify him, but on that day, three persons were condemned to be crucified.
And it was the convention that every year, before the Jewish holidays began, the crucifixion would happen and the Jews were then given a chance to pardon one of these three condemmed persons.
Judea was under the rule of Rome. The viceroy of Judea was a Roman, Pontius Pilate. He hoped that they would ask to pardon Jesus because he was innocent, he had never done any harm to anybody. He talks nonsense, he looks like a clown, he talks like a madman saying that he is the only begotten son of God, but this is not harmful and these are not crimes. At the most, he needs some psychiatric treatment, but not crucifixion. Pontius was thinking that the Jews would ask for Jesus because the other two persons were confirmed criminals; but the Jews said that Barabbas should be released. Barabbas had murdered seven people and had committed every crime that is possible to man.
Pontius Pilate could not believe that they were asking for Barabbas, and not for Jesus. Can you believe? A man who has done only good, healed people, raised the dead, had never even been charged for speeding because he was only riding on a donkey his whole life!.
I cannot conceive that the miracles claimed about Jesus are true; they are all false and fictitious and created. And now, even Christianity and the great Christian theologians are having conferences all over the world that, "If we can get rid of these miracles it will be good, because for the future intelligent people these miracles will be barriers. In the past they proved him to be a god, but in the future they will prove him to be, at most, a magician." But if you take away all the miracles of Jesus then nothing is left.
In the East we have known Gautam Buddha, we have known Mahavira, we have known the seers of the UPANISHADS who have taken flights -- ultimate flights, into human consciousness. But the names you are talking about have been trying to put Upanishadic seers, Gautam Buddha, Mahavira, in the same category as Jesus. Jesus belongs to the category of Satya Sai Baba -- not more than that; both are fake.
And there has never been any resurrection. I have seen the grave of Jesus in Kashmir. He never died on the cross, it was a conspiracy.
The Crucifixion was on a Friday; starting on Saturday for three days Jews would stop all work for Passover. So Friday was chosen by Pontius Pilate, and he delayed the crucifixion as long as he possibly could. And you should remember a scientific fact: that the Jewish crucifixion takes at least forty-eight hours for a person to die because he is not hung by the neck, he is nailed to the cross by the hands and the feet, so drop by drop the blood goes out. It takes a healthy man forty-eight hours to die, and Jesus was only thirty-three -- perfectly healthy. He could not have died in six hours, nobody has ever died that way in six hours. But because Friday's sun was setting, he had to be brought down and for three days all work had to stop. This was the conspiracy.
He was taken from the cave, he escaped, and he lived in India in Kashmir. What you see in Pundit Jawaharlal Nehru's nose, Indhira Gandhi's nose is not very strange -- they are Jewish. Moses died in Kashmir, Jesus also died in Kashmir after living a long life of one hundred and twelve years. I have been to his grave and it is still being taken care of by a Jewish family. That is the only grave in Kashmir which does not face towards Mecca; all the other graves are Mohammedan. Mohammedan graves are made so that the head is directed towards Mecca.
And the inscription on the grave, in Hebrew, is clear. The name you have been accustomed to, Jesus, was not his name; that is his name in Greek. His name was Joshua and it is written still on the grave that "Joshua, a great teacher of religion, travelled from Judea, lived here, died at the age of one hundred and twelve years, and lies here".
But it is strange, I have talked all over the West, but not a single Western Christian is ready to come to see the grave, because that will spoil their whole theory of resurrection. I have asked them, "If he was resurrected, then when did he die? You have to prove that." If after the crucifixion he was resurrected, then he must either have died or he must still be around. -- They don't have any description of his death.
I was condemned because I was simply saying what is absolutely logical, scientific, rational. The people you are talking about were not interested in truth, they were interested in saying things to please others. To me that is how the politician's mind is.
From the very beginning, as soon as the child is born, he becomes a politician. He does not want to smile at his mother but he smiles. There is no smile in his heart but he knows that a smile pays. He smiles at the father, although he has no proof that he is his father. From that moment a man starts learning politics -- do what people like. It is a very strange world... here leaders are followers of their own followers.
I am not a leader, I am simply a thinker. And I will live as a thinker to the very last moment of my life.
I have informed Ronald Reagan not to waste half a million dollars on killing me - - just give half a million dollars to my work and I will leave my body myself. I have not paid a single rupee for my body and one day I will die and nobody will pay a single rupee for it. Half a million dollars is a perfectly good price. But why give it to somebody else and put him into trouble? I am ready to die, just give half a million dollars to my work; and it is negotiable!.
Q: WHEN YOU WERE IN DELHI AND KULU LAST TIME THERE WERE REPORTS THAT THE INDIAN GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT YOU TO SET UP AN ASHRAM IN INDIA. WAS THERE ANY TRUTH IN THOSE REPORTS? DO YOU HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE GOVERNMENT?
A: I don't have problems with anybody but everybody has problems with me.
The American government has been pressuring the Indian government that I should be kept in India and I should not be allowed to go out of India. Also no foreigners, particularly news media people, should be allowed to reach me.
Those were the two conditions.
I cannot accept it; I never accept any conditions. I am a free man and I would like to die a free man. Even if it is by a bullet, it doesn't matter. But I cannot become a slave of such conditions. What is the point of living if I am living under such conditions that I should remain in India and no foreign disciples should be allowed to reach me? That is almost killing me; that will be a living death.
They were going to take my passport because I wanted to move around all the Christian countries. That's why I left India before -- to make them aware that they can kill me, but they cannot kill my spirit.
Now I am in India again and I will fight the Indian government if any conditions are imposed on me. Foreign devotees will be coming to me and I will be going out of India in spite of the Indian government. I have made my own arrangements.
And do you think this bogus Indian government can prevent me? They should count their days -- just the next election and they will be gone.
Politicians don't have long lives. And this politician who has exploited his own mother's assassination will have to face reality in the next election. He doesn't know anything; just because the mother was assassinated, the son is made the prime minister of the country. Other than that there is no quality, no integrity, no incentive -- that man is no more than a pilot and should not try to be more. That is his training and he should follow his own line and leave the country to people who are wiser, who can change this country back to its golden age. What has he done?
Just thirty years ago, when I started speaking Publicly, I spoke out against the population growth. I was stoned, I was poisoned, a knife was thrown, attempts on my life were made by people who thought that I was trying to prevent the growth of Hinduism.
At that time the population of the country was four hundred million. If they had listened to me we would have been one of the most comfortable countries in the world today, but now the population is nine hundred million. Just in thirty years there has been an increase of five hundred million people; and your politicians don't have the guts to say to the people, "Stop! No more children."
Otherwise by the end of this century we will have passed beyond one billion. For the first time in history we will be ahead of China; up to now China has been ahead.
We will be the poorest country in the world. Fifty percent of the population will be dying all around. Just think... if fifty percent of the people are going to die around you. In this room... one hundred people are present, if fifty people die...
what about the fifty who will be living with fifty ghosts?... their life will not be much of a life.
You don't have a government, you don't have the politicians, you don't have wise enough people who can change the fate of this country. And this country is in immense need.
This country has the longest heritage in the world, and the greatest heritage. We have something to give to the world, and they want to prevent me from going out to it. Nobody can prevent me from going out, and nobody can prevent people coming to me.
Q: DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE CHANGED IN THE NEXT ELECTION?
A: Certainly. It is a bogus government and it should be driven out. Only immature people make up government. And just think, for forty years even the mature politicians could not do anything and these are immature people -- they cannot do anything but harm.
You have to start looking for people of merit. And there are people of merit in the country. It is a big country but the problem is that the man of merit, the man who is wise, the man who can help, will not beg for votes. You will have to beg him, "Please help the country. Come out."
These politicians are all beggars for votes. You are being dominated by beggars and I am not in support of it.
Q: WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT MA SHEELA AND DEEKSHA?
A: No. Dead is dead, and finished is finished. I don't deal with ghosts.