Chapter 04

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only.]

Q: WHAT IS YOUR PRESENT SITUATION WITH REGARDS TO THE GOVERNMENT OF USA?

A: It is a government which pretends to be democratic but it is not. On the contrary democracy is only a mask and behind it is a very fascist government and my attitude is that it should be exposed to the whole world because the whole world has been believing in its democracy.

In the first place, the people who are known as Americans are none of them Americans. The real Americans are called red indians and the unreal people who are all foreigners and who have invaded the land of the poor red indians, destroyed their freedom, almost destroyed the whole race of the red indians....

These people who call themselves democratic and think that they are protectors of democracy in the world are really imperialistic and the first step that democracy will be to give back the land to the people to whom it belongs.

The foreigners are in power and the native people have lost all power and they have been forced to live in reservations which are almost American name for concentration camps.

In Germany the concentration camps were more primitive. In America the reservations are more sophisticated so from the surface you will not be able to see that they are concentration camps because there are no barbed wires around, people are free, but that is just a facade.

The reality is they have created psychological imprisonment. They are giving the red indians pensions so all the red indians have become lazy -- nobody works, there is no need to work, and they get so much money that they simply gamble, fight, murder, rape and drink... they are all drunkards.

Now this is destroying them psychologically. And they go on reproducing more children because more children mean more money. Each children brings more pensions.

Perhaps this is the first instance in the whole history of man where a people has completely forgotten that they are slaves, that they have lost their country, that they have lost their freedom.

They are almost in a state of sleep -- drinking, gambling, fighting. And these people have no more consciousness or dignity to fight for freedom. This is destroying somebody's soul completely and that's what American government has done.

I myself have been for twelve days in American jails and then I could see it more closely -- the fascist structure. I was arrested without any warrant, without showing me any cause why I am arrested -- that is absolutely undemocratic. I was not allowed to call my attorney.

And they forced me into jail and they will not supply me even a bed or a pillow, just a steel bench... and they know that my back is bad and that's why that arrangement was made. Because all prisoners were getting beds, mattresses, pillows and everything... I was not given anything except that steel bench. The whole night I was sitting, I could not lie down on it. Even sitting, by the morning, my back was so bad I could not even walk.

And I told them that, "This is inhuman behavior. In the first place you don't have any warrant, you don't have any cause to arrest me, you don't allow me my right to call my attorney and you force me to sit on a steel bench the whole night." And this went on for twelve days continuously.

They did everything to harm me indirectly. And finally they forced me, under oath that I will speak only truth and nothing else... they forced me to lie. The government knew that they have nothing against me so if there is a trial they are going to lose the case. All that they can do, they can prolong the case and force the court not to give me bail on the grounds that I have thousands of followers, enough financial resources, that if I am bailed I may leave the country.

I don't care how much money you put for the bail, you may put one million or two million.... That was their argument that any amount of money does not matter to him, so bail should not be allowed. But still they were afraid that even if bail if not allowed they can torture me but finally they will have to be defeated.

So they asked my attorneys for a private meeting before the trial began that some negotiation is possible. If Bhagwan accepts on two counts `guilty' then we will ask the court to fine him and release him and the case if finished. If he does not accept that he is guilty, then the trial will begin but we will not allow the bail in any case. And we will torture him for as many years as possible. So you can choose: we know you know that we don't have any grounds to win the case.

Now this is justice, democracy or pure use of power? My attorneys thought that there seems to be no other way than to accept guilty knowing that there is no guilt. The charges are false.

When they came to me their eyes were full of tears. They were the best attorneys in America that I had hired but I asked, "Why you are crying?"

They said, "Because there is nothing against you and we cannot protect you and they have made the situation in such a way that you will have to accept that you are guilty."

But I said, "Under the oath I cannot lie."

They said, "You forget the oath because if you don't lie, just think of all your friends around the world... you will be tortured in the jail and they will be tortured outside."

Just twelve days there were thousands of people who had not eaten, they were fasting, so just think of those people. And out of compassion, lie. And we are with tears because we feel so helpless that it is absolutely illegal advice that we are giving to you. But there is no other way. Seeing the situation that they can not only torture me for years: that was not a big problem, I would have accepted to suffer for truth. The problem was that millions of my people would have unnecessarily gone into torture for five years, six years, seven years....

They may have even killed me. They have tried.

In those twelve days they have been putting me with inmates who had infectious diseases. They put me with one inmate who was living alone for six months, nobody was allotted the same cell because he had very serious case, high risk, confirmed Herpes; and he was almost dying because of Herpes.

They allotted me that room. Even the man who was there was shocked. He could not write English well, he was from Cuba, but he tried to inform me that, "I am suffering from high risk Herpes and Bhagwan they have put you knowingly here so that you can get infection. For six months they have kept me alone, nobody has been allotted the room."

And when I left the jail I was surprised to see that the whole ground floor was empty. For three days I have been coming in and out every time it was always full, people were working. "What happened?" I asked.

They said, "It is change of shift."

But I said, "This is not the way of changing shifts. First the people should come in then only the older shift can leave. Giving gap is not the way. I have not seen it happen before. Just today, it seems a little bit strange."

And there is only one man to give me my clothes back, because I am released, and that man too for the first time in twelve days leaves me alone, otherwise I was in chains... chains in the legs, chains around my waist, my hands were chained and they were chained with my waist chain also. So no movement of any kind was possible and still there were two persons with guns with me. That was the first day there was nobody and he, the only person, told me that "I am going to look for my boss because I need his signature to release your things."

Later on I came to know that no signature was needed of anybody. My signature was needed that I have received my things.

And that man closed the doors, went out, came after fifteen minutes, looked a little embarrassed, perspiring. I asked, "What is the matter? It is an airconditioned place -- why you are perspiring? And why you look so nervous?"

And the reason was that they have planted a bomb in the room where I was sitting. Just the problem was that they could not figure out the right time when I will be coming out of the court to the jail, and it was a time bomb. And I had come early because the case finished without any trial... I accepted that I am guilty, and there was no question of any argument so there was no time lost.

The judge knew perfectly well that I am not guilty. The judge knew the settlement because exactly on two points which the government has asked me to accept `guilty,' only on those two points he asked me, "Are you guilty or not?"

There were eighteen points, specifically on those two points he asked. That means he was perfectly aware that these are the two points under the settlement.

And I accepted those two points... still four hundred thousand dollars were fined.

Under oath of speaking only truth the government forces me to lie and then they fine me four hundred thousand dollars, and I have not committed anything.

Now what to say about a government who functions in such ways. And then too they had managed that if by chance I deny that I am guilty they had made another arrangement of the bomb.

These people are criminals. America is being ruled by a criminal government.

It should be exposed to the whole world. Its mask should be taken away. It is not a democracy, it is purely a hypocrisy.

Q: WHY WAS YOUR SECRETARY ARRESTED IN GERMANY?

A: I was for three and half years in silence and isolation. I was not meeting people, my secretary was the only communication between me and my people.

If there was any spiritual need, any spiritual guidance for somebody then she would bring the question to me. Otherwise she was having all the power... and power corrupts.

And particularly because she was a woman, it corrupted more. Because women have been repressed for centuries and have not been given any power, so it is there in their unconscious hungry... there is great lust for power in women.

They try in their own small way nagging the husband, crying and throwing things, and tantrums... these are simply feminine power tricks.

But my secretary was a woman. When I had chosen her she was an innocent woman as any woman, but you cannot say what is hidden in people's unconscious mind.

When she got the power and the power was big -- three hundred million dollars we were using to create the commune, and she came from a poor family, she was only a waitress in a hotel when she came to me. She may have never dreamt of three hundred million dollars. Naturally, lust for money arose in her. She stole fifty-five million dollars and opened a bank account in Switzerland in her own name.

Then there was this great power because my people love me and she was my representative so whatsoever she said, they accepted it, they thought it was coming from me. She always managed to say that it is coming from Bhagwan.

Whatever she wanted them to do was coming from me. And whatever she was afraid to say to them, even if I had told her, she remained silent. And it was impossible for me to figure out whether she is telling to the people the things I am saying or not. And there was no reason to suspect.

She bugged my own room just out of fear that perhaps somebody, the cleaner, my personal physician, my dentist -- somebody may say to me, inform me... she was afraid because she was doing something wrong. Not only she bugged my own room, she bugged almost two hundred other sannyasin's houses. All the intelligent people in the commune: the chancellor of the university, the vice- chancellor of the university, the professors, the psychologists, the therapists -- all the intelligentsia she bugged everybody's house because she was afraid these were the people who could be competitors to her.

Now bugging is a crime. Just for one house bugging you can go for jail for five years and she bugged two hundred houses. One thousand years' jail just for bugging.

She was taping all the phones going out of the commune or coming in the commune, just out of fear because she has stolen the money, she has made a small gang and then this is how crime leads to more crime. Now she was afraid of her own husband because he knew that she has stolen fifty-five million dollars. She tried to kill him, to poison him in a cup of coffee. She tried to kill my personal physician -- four times she poisoned him. She wanted her own person to be my personal physician. She was asking me continuously, that "We have better doctors."

I said, "It is not a question of better doctor -- he has been looking after me for ten years and I am perfectly happy. And he has taken absolute care about my health and I am perfectly healthy. So there is no need to change."

Then she started thinking of killing the person so she can put her own person as my physician, in case she wants to kill me. Then that man will be able to poison me.

So she has committed many crimes. She has tried to kill one of the judges of the Wasco County because he was voting against some of the proposals that she was making, she wanted to finish him. She tried to kill the attorney of another county -- Jefferson county, because our commune was a big land -- one hundred twenty- six square miles. Half was in Wasco county, half was in Jefferson county. That Jefferson county attorney was creating trouble. Rather than fighting legally she started fighting in a criminal way -- finish the person.

She burnt the planning office of the Wasco county because it has some papers against her, she burnt the whole office completely, with all their records of hundreds of years.

When I started speaking then people started coming to me to inform me that, "Strange things have been happening here." The moment she became aware that I am being informed about things, she escaped with her clique and she was hiding in Black Forest in Germany where she has been arrested.

Because I asked law enforcement authorities, the state police, the federal police, F.B.I.; I invited them to the commune, I gave a press conference -- an open invitation to the government that they should come and look into everything that my people want to inform and testify. And we gave them... they remained for one month our guest and we supplied every testimony for all the crimes that she has committed. And the most insane(*) is that they tried.... I was the person to invite them, I was the person who was their host for one month. We took every care of them, we... otherwise there was no way for them to know of anything that has happened unless we were going to testify. And in the court they started throwing all those crimes on me. I had simply to laugh.

My attorney told them that "This is sheer nonsense because I have been bringing sannyasins on Bhagwan's suggestion to the F.B.I. to report all these crimes and you are throwing all those crimes, dumping on the same person who has invited you and made all those crimes available to you."

Now they have caught Sheela and two, three other persons, but few more persons are missing. I feel sorry for her because when I had chosen her my secretary she was an innocent person, very capable of doing things but this is the tragedy that we are all carrying an unconscious of which we are not even aware.

That what kind of animality, criminality will come up from the unconscious when the opportunity is there.

And this is my whole work, I call it meditation.

That the unconscious should be changed into consciousness so that nothing remains inside you that you don't know. That is the only possibility that you may not fall into darkness and you may not do things which are inhuman, that you will not go in the ways of evil. The only possibility is that your whole mind is simply consciousness -- there is no unconscious part at all.

And this is one of the greatest contribution of the East to the world. Sigmund Freud, Carl Gustav Jung, Alfred Adler and other psychologists in the West, only in this century have been able to find that there is something like unconscious.

In the East for five thousand years we have been aware of the unconscious. Not only that, we have been aware how to transform it into consciousness. The West has accepted now that there is a unconscious but it has not yet been able to find how to transform it into consciousness. The East has the methods but the ego of the Western psychology prevents it to accept the methods which are already available.

Thousands of people have been meditating with me and have come to the same experience of illumination that the darkness disappears, that one becomes full of light. And after that it is impossible to fall.

Q: WHY THE POLITICIAN AFRAID OF YOU?

A: The politician are afraid of me because I am against all politics. To me it seems keeping humanity retarded because the vested interest of the politicians is that humanity should not be very intelligent.

If humanity is really very intelligent who is going to accept a man like Adolf Hitler as a leader of a nation -- who is simply insane. Adolf Hitler needs an insane humanity to support him. Just look at your politicians. They are not the most intelligent people in the society, they are the most cunning, certainly. But cunningness does not mean intelligence.

The politicians are afraid of me because I am teaching intelligence, awareness, consciousness. My whole effort is to make every person so intelligent and clear that no idiots like Adolf Hitler or Benito Mussolini or Mao Tse-tung or Joseph Stalin can deceive people, can cheat people.

It is a basic truth that only people who are suffering from inferiority complex go into politics. It is the inferiority complex that leads them into politics so that they can prove to themselves and to the world that they are not inferior, they have power.

A real superior man never goes to politics. It is below him. It is always the inferior who go to the politics. And these inferior people have all the power of the armies, of atomic energies, of nuclear weapons. It is a very strange world.

The best of the minds create atomic energy. For example, Albert Einstein creates atomic energy. He was creating it in Germany.

(Tape side B) If he had not left Germany the atom bombs would have been in the hands of Adolf Hitler. But there is not much difference. The atom bombs were in the hands of Roosevelt or Truman. And Truman used those atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki uselessly, without any purpose. Germany has already failed and Japan could have lasted not more than two weeks. There was no need to destroy Hiroshima and Nagasaki and to use atom bombs. But Truman was in a hurry. He wanted to use them to show the power to the whole world.

It is a strange coincidence that his name is Truman. His name should be un- Truman. And when next day in the morning he was asked by the journalists, "Could you sleep?"

He said, "Yes. I slept very well because the project was successful."

And the project was to destroy two beautiful cities, innocent people, children, women, old people, civilians who has nothing to do with war. In both the cities nearabout two hundred thousand people were destroyed by president un- Truman and still he had a good sleep. Can you think this man as human?

Albert Einstein was immensely hurt and before he died he said, that "If there is another life I would like to be a plumber, I don't want to be a physicist again."

The best of the minds create, and the worst of the minds use -- all the power, all the energy.

I am against this situation. I would like best of the minds to rule and the power should be in the hands of more alert, more conscious, more human, beings.

I am in favor of a new kind of government. I call it meritocracy: that merit should be the criterion. There is no need of political parties. If you need a health minister you have all medical experts, let them stand for the post, let the country choose the best physician, the best surgeon -- there is no need for any politics in it.

You need an education minister, let all the educationists... you have all the chancellors and vice-chancellors in the universities, you have great professors, you have scientists -- let them stand and let people choose the best.

The world will be far better if we are in the hands of intelligent people, creative people who cannot destroy, whose intelligence won't allow them to do all stupid things that politicians go on doing. And the power should always be with the more alert, more aware, more conscious people. Then only we are safe.

Otherwise, power is going to destroy the whole humanity.

Q: WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO COME BACK TO INDIA? WHY NOT ANOTHER COUNTRY?

A: India cannot prevent me because I am born here. There is no other reason for my coming to India.

You will be surprised... in Germany the parliament has passed a law that I cannot enter Germany. I have never been to Germany, I have never committed any crime in Germany and they can pass a law that I cannot enter Germany.

I am going to ask them, "Can I fly over Germany or not?" Because I have six communes in Germany, I can at least fly and drop flowers on my communes, perhaps they will not allow even that.

In any other country I would have encountered the same problems. I was four years in America without any visa. They will not give me visa. I asked them, "Then you can simply tell me that you are not going to give me visa." They will not say even that in writing because they knew I will go to the court and they don't have any reason why they are refusing. Because I fulfill all their categories, not only one. They have six categories, only one category I don't fulfill -- that is marriage, which I can do any moment. The remaining five categories I fulfill.

And I asked them, "You tell me, whichever category you want me I can apply for it." And I had applied on five grounds, `no' they could not say because in the court they will be in difficulty. And `yes' the politicians will not allow them to say.

So four years I was there without any visa. I told to the immigration department that you are making me unnecessarily criminal and really you are criminal. You are forcing me to live here without visa. I am ready to go -- you just tell me `no.' I need some kind of reply or not.

I knew the same will happen in any country.

Coming back to India is for a simple reason that they cannot at least make a law against me that I cannot enter into the country.

Otherwise to me all the countries are the same and I don't believe in nations, I believe this whole earth is one.

And that day will be the most fortunate when nations are dissolved and we have one government and one world.

Because unless nations are dissolved we cannot get rid of wars. The only way to get rid of wars is dissolve nations, have only one world so there is no reason for war -- unless you find some other planet where there are similar beings like you ready to fight, which is a very rare and almost improbable possibility.

I have come here because there was nowhere else to go. I would have loved to go to Germany because I have the greatest number of sannyasins in Germany than in any other country. That's why the government is so much afraid. That even before I was told that I cannot enter America for five years, they immediately passed a law that I cannot enter into Germany. They must have been afraid that from America I will enter into Germany.

And in Germany I could have really created great trouble for the politicians.

But their very fear shows their inferiority. Their very fear shows lack of intelligence. Otherwise they should invite me, they can argue with me, I am ready to argue on each point. That will be more human. Rather than arresting me on the point of twelve guns... a single man who has nothing in his hands, who has nothing on his body except his robe -- you don't need twelve guns to arrest a man. It simply shows your stupidity and your fear.

In the first place we had created such a beautiful commune in America. We transformed the whole desert which was lying dead for fifty years.

And nobody was ready to purchase it. We purchased it, we changed the desert into an oasis. We made lakes, we make a small river joining the lakes, we made houses for our sannyasins -- five thousand people were living. And we did everything ourselves. We had not taken any support from outside. We made the roads, we made the houses and we were living as comfortably, as luxuriously as possible. Because the desert started yielding more than we needed: enough food, enough vegetables, enough fruits, enough milk product... and we had all kinds of intelligent people.

Coincidentally only intelligent people become interested in me. So we had scientists, we had doctors, we had our own medical hospital, we had a university, we had many professors, we had many psychologists, we had many psychotherapies. We had engineers, we had all kinds of talented people and geniuses.

All five thousand people were graduates -- most of them had masters degrees and a large amount had doctorates. And these people put their whole energy and intelligence in creating a beautiful commune.

They started with meditation in the morning then they listened to me, then they went to work. Then in the evening they danced and sang and it was the most rejoicing and happy place on the earth. And that became their jealousy. That became their fear, that people are coming to see the commune from all over America.

Televisions, news media, radios, newspapers are all coming from all over America to see how we have managed it.

And it was a superior kind of communism because we have stopped any money circulation in the commune. No money was used inside the commune.

Whatever you needed you got from the commune's central office. Whatever you needed was given to you so there was no need for money. If you wanted money to donate to the commune, you could donate but you could not purchase anything by money.

So there was no difference between the rich and the poor. Without any dictatorship we dissolved the class differences of poor and the rich. Just by stopping the circulation of money in the commune.... You may have millions of dollars but they were useless.

We had not a single beggar, nobody unemployed and for four years in the commune no rape, no murder, no suicide, no theft. This commune had a judge sitting useless for four years. The commune has a police force, they never used their force for anything because it was never needed. Nobody fought with anybody, their was no riots. And we had people from all nations, from all religions, from all races, and there was no problem. There were blacks, there were Jews, there were Hindus, there were Christians, there were Mohammedans.

The politicians became very much worried that we, without any power have managed a superior kind of society.

Five thousand people eating into one kitchen, into one place. It is stupid that there should be two thousand five hundred kitchens, twenty-five hundred women should be wasting their life in the kitchens. Just fifteen persons were taking care of the kitchen. And all women are not good cooks. We had chosen the best cooks so the whole commune was happy as far as food was concerned and we managed not only delicious food, we managed that it should be hygienic, that it should be healthy, that it should be very balanced to everybody.

In America there are thirty million people dying on the streets, starving. And there are thirty million people, the exact number, who are dying in hospitals because of overeating. This seems to be stupid.

A person is dying because he is overeating and another person is dying because he has nothing to eat. They both can live and both can live more healthily, just a little distribution and a little understanding is needed.

The whole system of the commune worried the politicians. Children were taken care by the commune so they were not a burden on the parents. Parents were more freer and in four years' time not a single baby was born because I told to my people that this is not the time for giving birth to people, the world is over- populated. It is a crime to go on adding more people to this already over- populated world.

And if you love your children what kind of world you are going to give them? A world which will be starving soon by the end of this century. Many countries will turn into Ethiopia. India will be turning into Ethiopia. There is going to be perhaps a nuclear war. A very strange disease AIDS is spreading like wildfire.

In this world, if you love your child, this is not the time to give birth. And they understood. And not a single child was born.

The way the commune functioned created a comparison that if these people can maintain, why America having all the power of the world and all the money of the world cannot manage? That was my crime. And in any country if I am there I am going to create a commune and that is going to result in the same, there will not be much difference.

Q: WHAT WILL BE THE FUTURE OF THE COMMUNES THEN?

A: I never think of the future. I think only of the present.

They are happy and they are rejoicing and out of this happiness and rejoicing the future will be born.

Future does not come from nowhere. It comes from the present. This moment gives birth to another moment so I think only of the present and I take care of the present, that is taking care of the future without taking care of the future.

The tomorrow will be better if we have lived today intensely, totally... the tomorrow is going to be born out of today.

So I don't think about future, it will take care itself.

Q: AND YOU WILL BE CONTINUED LIVING HERE? YOU CONTINUE LIVING HERE, THIS PLACE?

A: Nothing can be said. Right now I am here, tomorrow I don't know.

Q: DO YOU BELIEVE IN GOD?

A: There is no God, so how can I believe?

Q: WHAT'S YOUR PERSONAL OPINION ABOUT RELIGIONS AND SEX?

A: There is no need of religions. All that is needed is a quality of religiousness and all organized religions destroy this same quality. They make you Christians, they make you Hindus, they make you Mohammedans, they don't make you religious.

My effort is you should not be a Christian, you should not be a Hindu, you should not be a Jew, you should be simply religious.

And to me religion means living life in its totality, accepting existence in all its beauty, with gratitude. It is so beautiful and it has been given to us just as a gift -- we should be grateful, grateful to the trees, to the birds, to the stars, to the flowers, to the oceans.

To me there is no God, existence is enough unto itself.

And a deep feeling of gratitude towards existence is what I mean by religiousness.

And if you live totally then certainly sex is part of it. Sex is part of your life. And something most important. You are born out of it, your every cell vibrates with it, it is your only energy.

And if you love and love intensely, sex is the first thing that gives you a feeling of religiousness.

To me the orgasmic experience is the first experience of religion. You don't get it in the churches, you don't get it in the temples.

You get it when you are in total love, immersed with your lover, forgotten everything, thoughts stop, for a moment time stops and that is the moment when you first experience something beyond mind.

So to me sex is something sacred. It should be respected. And all the religions have been condemning it.

They have created all kinds of perversions because of their condemnation. They have created celibates and nobody can be a celibate, it is impossible. Just it is against nature.

So the celibate becomes a homosexual. It leads to perversions and finally it has come to AIDS which is an outcome of homosexuality.

I call AIDS a religious disease and I want it emphasized that all the religions are responsible for bringing such a ugly disease which has no cure.

Celibacy should be made a crime. Anything against nature should be a crime.

And to me sex is something which should be more prayerful, more loving, more aesthetic.

To my own sannyasins I say that you should make in your house a small temple where you make love. It should be the most beautiful place in your house, and when you make love there should be music, there should be incense burning, there should be flowers all around. Love should be made not under glaring electric lights but with small candles. Make it more of a dream, out of the real world, the mundane world. And treat the other person with deep respect. Don't use the other person because that is not respect, that is prostitution, that is not love.

And before you make love dance, sing, let your energy vibrate your whole body.

Love should be the climax of your dance otherwise you will never achieve those orgasmic moments I am talking about.

Millions of people live and die, give birth to children, but have never experienced any orgasmic phenomenon.

The reason is because it can happen only at a climax so you have to bring your energy at a climax. Don't make love while you are tired, don't make love just as a sleeping pill so that you can sleep. Don't make love out of duty, that she's your wife and you have to make love. Make love only when you are full of energy and when you would like to dance, when you would like to explode. And make the situation as sacred and as aesthetic as possible.

To me sex is sacred and the first step towards religiousness. I have immense respect for it.

Q: WHAT'S MORE IMPORTANT FOR THE HUMAN BEING IN THE WORLD, SCIENCE OR RELIGION?

A: Both. And both more than the other because science is the search for truth in the objective world and religion is also search for the truth in the subjective world.

In fact, they are two wings of one bird, of one inquiry -- two sides.

Ultimately there is no need to have two names. My own suggestion is `science' is perfectly beautiful name because it means knowing.

So science has two sides, just like every coin has two sides. Knowing into the dimension of matter you can call it objective science, and knowing into the dimension of your interiority, of your inner being, of your consciousness, you can call it subjective science. There is no need for the word religion.

Science is perfectly good. And it is the same search. Just the directions are two.

And it will be good that we make one supreme science which is a synthesis, a synchronicity of the outer science and the inner science. And there will be no need then of so many religions and there will be no need then even for somebody to be an atheist. Because theists are gone, then there is no need for atheists -- they are only reactions.

There are believers in God so there are disbelievers in God. When the believers are gone what is the need of disbelievers.

There is no need to believe in anything -- that is the fundamental of science; that is the scientific approach to reality: do not believe, inquire.

The moment you believe, inquiry stops. Keep your mind open -- neither believe nor disbelieve. Just remain alert and search and doubt everything. Unless you come to a point which is indubitable, that's what truth is. You cannot doubt it. It is not a question of believing in it, it is a totally different phenomenon and you cannot doubt it. It is so much a certainty, so overwhelming you that there is no way to doubt it.

And this is knowing and this knowing transforms a man into a Buddha, into an enlightened man. This is the goal of all human growth.

Q: WILL YOU CONTINUE TO BE AVAILABLE TO PEOPLE FOR ADVICE?

A: Yes. I am available always to anybody who is searching and seeking, who is courageous enough not to believe but to inquire.

Okay. Q: THANK YOU VERY MUCH.