Chapter 26

[NOTE: This is a typed tape transcript and has not been edited or published, as of August 1992. It is for reference use only. The interviewer's remarks have been omitted where not relevant to Osho's words]

A:* One thing and only one thing: that this is the alternative to your world. Your world is on the verge of death. The politicians have brought the nuclear weapons to create the funeral of the whole humanity. And the religious leaders, insisting on celibacy, have brought humanity to the ultimate disease -- AIDS.

And the politicians and the priests both are bent upon to destroy the world. We are creating a totally new kind of man, with new values. And these communes are around the world now -- one million sannyasins, and we provide the alternative to your mad world.

Q:* HOW IS THAT ACCOMPLISHED?

A:* First the sannyasins only requirement is to be a meditator. And meditation means going into yourself, to the deepest core of your being, where absolute silence, serenity, peace, bliss are experienced. And once a person experiences those values then all ambitions about becoming a president of a country, or the prime minister, or becoming famous, a celebrity, all ambitions disappear. And if we can create millions of people who have no ambitions, that is the only way to prevent war. War is the culmination of ambitions.

And the peaceful man, the silent man who has touched his own source of being, is no more Christian, no more Hindu, no more Mohammedan, no more Buddhist, no more American, no more Russian, no more German, no more Italian, he is simply a human being, and the whole earth is his home.

If we can destroy those ugly lines on the map which divide humanity -- there is no reason for war: one thing.

Second, if we can create such serenity and joy in people's lives all their perversions; homosexuality, lesbianism, bisexuality, group sexuality, which all have culminated finally into AIDS, will disappear. Because we are creating such a contented man who needs no one to fulfill him. He is alone enough.

Q:* I SUSPECT THAT MANY OF THOSE WHOSE RELIGIONS YOU FEEL THE WAY YOU DO ABOUT, WOULD PROBABLY AGREE WITH THOSE TENANTS, AND THOSE GOALS. OR AT LEAST WOULD VOICE AN AGREEMENT WITH IT.

A:* They would not. There is no question of suspicion. I am certain they will not listen. They will fight back. They will be hostile towards me. They are.

But that makes no difference. I am not a serious man. If the world is going to go we will do whatever we can do, but our work is playfulness. We are not saviors and we are not here to save anybody. That is just by the way. Otherwise we are celebrants not saviors. We enjoy and we are enjoying, and who cares for tomorrow? Today is so tremendously beautiful.

Q:* I HEARD YOU BEGIN BY SAYING THAT THE WORLD IS ON THE VERGE OF SELF DESTRUCTION ESSENTIALLY. AND THAT THERE IS AN ANSWER, THAT SANNYASINS AROUND THE WORLD, CAN BRING THAT ABOUT.

BUT NOW YOU TELL ME HOWEVER, FORGET IT. BUT I THINK THERE'S PURPOSE HERE. THERE'S NOTHING IN THIS PLACE SPEAKS OF ACCIDENT. EVERYTHING SPEAKS OF PURPOSE AND INTENTION.

A:* That's the beauty of being playful, and yet not becoming accidental. Being nonserious, laughing, enjoying, dancing and yet doing everything that is needs.

There is no contradiction. That's why I say we are creating a new man in which this contradiction melts, becomes complimentary.

We are certain that those idiots are not going to hear. Still we will make our best effort playfully. Knowingly that it is a hopeless task, we will enjoy the challenge.

There is no contradiction in it.

Q:* MUCH THAT YOU DO, OR YOU CONSIDER PLAYFUL IS RECEIVED OTHERWISE. AND THE CONFLICT WITH MANY AROUND YOU, WHICH I SUSPECT YOU RELISH, IS RECEIVED OTHERWISE. WHERE IS THE MESSAGE IN THERE FOR THE OUTSIDE WORLD?

A:* No message for anybody.

Q:* WELL, IF IT'S A PLAYFUL... IF IT'S A PLAYFUL ATTEMPT I MEAN....

A:* Not even attempt, that's what I am saying, that our language is different, that our way is different. We are not making any attempt, any effort. We are simply enjoying the game.

The world is on the brink of death. We are celebrating our life. By the way, if we can make those people also understand that there is an* answer and life can be saved on the planet, good. If they don't hear, if they are hostile that is their

problem. We are not concerned. We are living already and we don't bother about future.

Our whole concern is the present -- here-now.

Q:* THIS PRESENT YOU ENJOY IN THIS PLACE CAME THROUGH PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE THROUGH WHICH YOU ARRIVED AT THIS DAY, DID IT NOT? THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY EVERYWHERE I SEE PLANNING, INTENTION, CONCERN WITH CREATING WHAT IT IS THAT YOU SEE TO CREATE.

A:* That is your way of seeing. For example, I am here. You think I am serious answering you?

Q:* NO, I DOUBT IT.

A:* But I will answer you, and anybody will be clear that there is a purpose in the answer, that I am answering out of concern. No, I am simply responding playfully -- just a game. You put the question, and I respond with the answer. I don't care whether the answer received anywhere any response or not. That is not my business. My business is finished with the answer I have given. And I enjoyed answering it. My basic purpose is to enjoy. I love talking.

Q:* IS THIS THE BEST GAME YOU'VE ...

A:* The best, because it needs the most intelligent people to play it.... It is not football; it is headball.... It is not football. Idiots can do that. It is head ball.

Q:* IT HAS BEEN REPORTED THAT YOU WERE A STUDENT IN YOUR EARLY YEARS, THAT YOU WERE A BRILLIANT STUDENT, THAT YOU READ EVERYTHING ON THE SUBJECT YOU STUDIED, AND THAT YOU HAD GREAT GRASP OF IT. WHAT DID YOU STUDY? WAS IT ANOTHER GAME? WHAT WAS IT THAT YOU USED FOR PREPARATION?

A:* No preparation I have done for anything, ever.

I have loved reading from my very childhood. My own personal library consisted of one hundred fifty thousand rare books of all the religions, philosophies, poetry, literature. And I have read all of them, but with no purpose; I enjoyed it. And the moment I felt that enough is enough.... I have enjoyed the best geniuses of the world, and now there is no more. I dropped. For five years I have not read a single book, not a single magazine, not a newspaper.

No reading at all.

The students may have felt that I am prepared. In fact, I would like you to go with me a little more back. When I was a student, my professors felt that I am more prepared than them -- and I was. But I was not prepared.

They had stopped thirty years before when they left the university and became professors. And I have read everything that has happened in these thirty years.

They were thirty years behind me. I was expelled from many colleges for the simple reason that many of the professors could not stand me. Understanding is out of the question, even they could not stand me.

Finally I was admitted in a college with a condition that I will never attend a class. But I ask the principal how I am going to enter into the examination. Class is no problem, that is great freedom, good, but how I am going to enter into the examination? The principle said, that "That is my problem. I will give you enough attendance to enter into examination. But it is a promise between you and me that you will not come into the college at all."

And for two years I never entered that college, and I got into the examination, and I got the gold medal, I topped the whole university and the principal was amazed. He said, "This is simply miraculous."

I said, "There is nothing. I have never read your textbooks. I have never listened to your lecturers, but I have such a love to read everything, and to go to the very depth of, to the very roots of everything.

In my reading there was no purpose, just joy. I relished it. For nine years I have been a lecturer in the university after that. That too, was a great joy. I relished, but the students were in a trouble. The university was in a trouble, because I will teach Aristotle, and I will also say that he is absolutely wrong. So first I will finish the course, and then I will destroy the whole that I have been teaching them. And they were in a great confusion then what is right.

I said, "Now, it is up to you. It is your intelligence to find out. I have presented Aristotle with absolute sincerity, but I cannot say that he is right. So I have to criticize him with the same sincerity. Now both are present to you; you can choose or you can remain confused."

I was reported to the vice-chancellor many times. And I told the vice-chancellor that, "Any day you want -- I have always carrying the resignation, but I will do only the way I want to do, because it is not a serious matter to me -- your service, your university, your textbooks, your examinations, that is nothing to me. To me, teaching is a joy. I am a born teacher."

Q:* YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT YOU WOULD TRICK A FOLLOWER OR A STUDENT. YOU DON'T REFER TO THE SANNYASINS AS FOLLOWERS, ALTHOUGH THEIR FEET SEEM TO BE FOLLOWING YOU.

A:* That is their problem.

Q:* BUT YOU SAID YOU WOULD TRICK A STUDENT TO TEACH A LESSON, AND THAT YOU HOPE THEY WOULD FORGIVE YOU THAT. IS THAT A TECHNIQUE THAT'S USEFUL TO YOU?

A:* I have been simply enjoying everything that I have been doing. And you can enjoy only anything if you are not serious about it. If you become serious about it, enjoyment disappears, it becomes work, hard work.

I have never worked, I'm a lazy man. I call myself a lazy man's guide to enlightenment. I don't do anything.

Q:* SO THE ANSWER THEN IS THAT TRICKERY WOULD BE WORK?

A:* Just enjoyment. Everything that I have done or am doing, to me is a joy. What it is to others, that is for them to decide. I have not missed a single moment of my life without enjoying it.

Q:* THE ROLLS ROYCES OBVIOUSLY RAISE A LOT OF SILLY QUESTIONS...

BECAUSE THE WHOLE THING IS A LITTLE SILLY.

A:* It is not. It is not yet the whole thing.

Q:* THERE MUST BE SOMETHING ELSE BEHIND THAT.

A:* There is nothing else.

Q:* JUST TO PRICK THE HIDE OF THOSE OF USE ON THE OUTSIDE AND GET THEIR ATTENTION.

A:* No, because I am loved by my sannyasins. Whether I have ninety Rolls Royces or not, will not make any difference to their love and their trust. And I don't purchase those Rolls Royces. They are purchased by sannyasins, and they are intending to bring three hundred sixty-five Rolls Royces. So tell those people that the silliness is still not absolute. It will be absolute soon. As far as I am concerned I possess nothing. Everything that I have belongs to the commune.

You will be happy to know that from the shoes to my cap, everything is made by my sannyasins themselves -- even my wrist watch.

They love me and they want to do something for me -- love always want to do something -- and I don't hinder them. Why I should hinder them? Those who hate me, they go on doing their things and I cannot hinder them. I have been poisoned. I have been in every way put in a dangerous situation. Stones have been thrown at me, shoes have been thrown at me, knives have been thrown at me. Attempts on my life have been made. I have not prevented anybody. And

why I should prevent my people who love me if they bring Rolls Royces, diamond watches?

It is simply a balance between the hostility and love, and in existence it is always balancing. I am just a witness, an outsider.

Q:* A FORTUNATE ONE.

A:* Certainly, the blessed one -- that is the meaning of Bhagwan. The word itself means the blessed one. And I am, and far more blessed than any other -- Jesus or Moses or Buddha, because nobody had such a worldwide family of friends and lovers and fellow travelers, none of them.

Q:* WHY DO YOU SO POINTEDLY AVOID THE TITLE 'LEADER'?

A:* Because it is ugly, it is exploiting.It is putting somebody down... suggesting that I know and you don't, so you follow me.

Q:* IT IS A FAIR ASSUMPTION THOUGH.

A:* That is their problem, you can ask them, you cannot ask me. As far as I am concerned, I am nobody's leader, nobody's... any responsibility I have taken on myself.

Q:* BUT IF A THING LOOKS LIKE AN ELEPHANT, WHY NOT CALL IT ONE?

A:* I cannot, because to me I have to insist my truth. If they are insistent in not listening to it, I am more insistent and will make them listen it. It is a competition between lovers. Nothing to be worried.

Q:* THE QUEST TO INFLUENCE THE HUMAN MIND MAY WELL BE THE CENTRAL ISSUE OF THE NEXT DECADE OR SO -- FROM ALL FRONTS.

HOW DO YOU SEE THAT? IF YOU AGREE OR DISAGREE, HOW DO YOU SEE THAT KIND OF COMPETITION FOR BELIEFS?

A:* My approach is totally different. I want to destroy all belief systems -- Catholic or communist, it does not matter.

Q:* WHAT ABOUT THE BELIEF SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T BELIEVE IN BELIEF SYSTEMS?

A:* It is not a belief system. It cannot be a belief system. It simply deprograms people, but does not program them. It leaves them clean, tabula rasa, no writing on them, just the way they were born, innocent. My function here is to

deprogram the Jew, the Hindu, the Mohammedan, whoever comes here. I have to destroy his belief system. I am not trying to influence him in favor of another belief system. I have none.

Q:* IT IS SAID THAT NATURE DETESTS A VACUUM, THAT SOMETHING WILL FILL THE HUMAN MIND.

A:* No. That is not true, because for thirty-two years I have been absolutely nothing. So it may be objectively true as far as science is concerned, that nature abhors vacuum, but as far as spiritual interior world is concerned, it is just the opposite.

The deeper you go, the more you find yourself empty. Ultimately, you find yourself just a zero, and that is the point of enlightenment. Your ego has disappeared,your greed has far away disappeared. You have disappeared, there is only light, life, infinite, eternal, but you are not there as a person, but just a pure consciousness, and it is nothingness. Buddha has actually given it the name nothingness -- nirvana; that* means nothingness.

In the western world, no religion has reached to that point -- all the western religions -- the three: Christian, Judaic tradition and Mohammedanism, which are born out of India. The other three religions which are born in India:

Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism -- all three have reached to the point where you enter into an inner zero. And that is their ultimate goal: to be nothing, and it is never filled by anything.

Q:* YOU WON'T BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND ANY OF THAT.

A:* You will not, and I am not surprised, because how can you understand something that you never have experienced. For example, if you have never tasted sugar, whatever I do, there is no way to explain you the taste of it. I will have to ask my sannyasins to hold you and force a spoonful of sugar into your mouth -- the only way. Looks a little hard, but what can be done? Unless you taste it you will not understand it. So if you really want to understand what I am saying about inner nothingness come here, be here for few days. Meditate with my people who have experienced it. Just being close with them, some kind of synchronicity happens.

If there are a dozen people who are deep in meditation, you simply sit in the middle of those people and try whatsoever they say, just sit down and watch your thoughts and do nothing. But those twelve people are radiating something towards you, and your effort together will give you the taste. If I have given the taste to thousands of people, you cannot be exceptional, nobody is. Everybody has the same spiritual potential.

Q:* I AGREE WITH YOU.

A:* Okay, and you will remember your questions, otherwise your questions will remain unanswered. Don't get involved with me, you just remember your questions.

Q:* WHAT DO YOU MEAN, DON'T LISTEN TO YOU?

A:* You just remember that you have brought questions. I have not brought any answer, so whatsoever you ask I will answer. It is going to be immediate, but to me it makes no difference what you ask.

Q:* I'M AWARE OF THAT.

A:* But it is my concern to remind you.

Q:* THERE ARE PATTERNS AND SIMILARITY BETWEEN WHAT IS TAUGHT HERE AND HOW, AND WHAT'S TAUGHT IN OTHER ORGANIZATIONS AND HOW. AND SPECIFICALLY IN THE MANNER WHICH INVOLVES RHETORIC AND PSYCHOLOGY. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE ASK YOU, "IS THIS PLACE ANOTHER JONESTOWN? IS THIS PLACE ANOTHER WHATEVER?"

BUT THEY ARE CLEAR SIMILARITIES, AND THERE MUST HAVE BEEN SOMEWHERE SOME SHARED KNOWLEDGE.

A:* There are bound to be some similarities, because we are not the only human beings. Outside also there are human beings, so there are bound to be some similarities. I have two eyes, you have two eyes, but that does not mean that our basic attitude is the same. For example, you mentioned Reverend Jim Jonestown.

Q:* I DON'T MEAN TO SUGGEST THAT YOUR INTENTIONS ARE THE SAME. I'M OBSERVING THAT A LOT OF THE TECHNIQUES ARE.

A:* No. Neither our intentions are the same nor is there any possibility of such a thing to happen here. Reverend Jim Jones and his Jonestown can happen only in a Christian context.

Q:* HE WAS A MARXIST.

A:* Marxism is a Christian product.

Q:* HE FORSOOK RELIGION AS HE DEFINED IT, AND I REMEMBER A SERMON HE PREACHED ONE DAY WHERE HE THREW THE BIBLE ON THE FLOOR AND STOMPED UP AND DOWN ON IT AND SAID, "THAT'S ALL

BULLSHIT," AND WENT ON TO TELL HIS FOLLOWERS IF THEY FOLLOWED HIM TO GUYANA* THAT EVENTUALLY THEY COULD GO TO THE SOVIET UNION AND THAT RELIGION WAS TO BE FORSAKEN.

PERHAPS PHILOSOPHICALLY YOU COULD CONNECT THE TWO, MARXISM AND CHRISTIANITY, BUT ON THE LEVEL THAT MOST PEOPLE DEAL AND WILL UNDERSTAND, THEY AREN'T RELATED.

A:* They are related.

Q:* BUT ISN'T IT MISLEADING TO REFER TO A MAN WHO DEFINES HIMSELF AS A MARXIST AS BEING A CHRISTIAN?

A:* Certainly, because he still remains the Reverend Jim Jones. Reverend is a Christian title... not a Marxist title. You don't refer Reverend Joseph Stalin. And as far as Marxism is concerned, it is simply a reaction to Christianity. Remember that Jesus and Marx both were Jews, never forget that. And both were trying to change the Jewish tradition -- Jesus in his own way, Marx in his own way.

Because Jesus has failed on certain points: the only begotten son of God, the existence of God, heaven and hell, Marx simply denied. There is no God, there is no question of any begotten son of God, there is no heaven and hell. In fact, there is no consciousness in man, it is only a by-product of material things.

It was really Jesus in a new edition in which all those points have been deleted which brought Jesus to the crucifixion -- only those points are. Otherwise, just as Jesus is concerned with the poor and says, "Blessed are the poor for theirs is the kingdom of God," Marx is not different. He says, "Proletariat of the world unite, because you have nothing to lose and everything to gain." The only difference is that Jesus was talking about a fictitious kingdom far away in the heavens, and Marx was a more pragmatic and practical man -- he was talking that, "We can create that paradise here -- all that is needed is: destroy classes, make a classless society." But both were in favor of the poor, both were against the rich.

Jesus says, "A camel can pass through the eye of a needle, but not a rich man can pass through the gates of his god." Now this man seems to be the first communist! What do you expect of a communist? Even Marx has not such a strong statement against the rich. In fact he was living on the money provided by a rich man, Friedrich Engels; whole life he never earned anything. Friedrich Engels was an industrialist, a rich man, and he supplied all his needs, his whole life.

He could not say that Engels cannot enter into the kingdom of God; without Engels, Marx himself will not find a way into kingdom of God.

Jesus raises the poor to the highest level. He praises them and that's what Marx was doing in a more scientific way. Jesus was too young. He was crucified when he was thirty-three, uneducated, knowing nothing -- he was just a carpenter's son. Maybe he knew something about wood, but about God he knew nothing.

Karl Marx is just another Jew, against the Jewish tradition, the richness of the Jews, their immense intelligence to create wealth -- Marx was poor, just as Jesus was poor. And you must remember that Marx's father was a reverend, so he was brought up in the context of Christianity. His father was converted -- he was a Christian -- and he was teaching Christianity to his children too. And whole communism is just a reaction against the Jewish wealth, their capacity to create wealth.

This man, Reverent Jim Jones, is doing exactly what Jesus was doing. He was saying to people that, "You just follow me, believe in me, and you will enter into my kingdom of God." The only condition was, "Believe in me!" And that was the condition of Reverend Jones, "Believe in me, and I will lead you to the kingdom of God." His kingdom of God may have been Sovietland -- that does not matter -- but he was the leader and you were the led; he knew what and where they are going -- you need not bother about it, need not even question about it.

Secondly, Jesus said to his disciples, "I will come back. First I will prepare the ground for you in the kingdom of God and then I will come back to take you."

Reverend Jim Jones were far more intelligent than Jesus: why go and prepare; why not take the whole lot with you?

This is the only place where Jonestown cannot happen. It can happen anywhere within Christian context; it cannot happen in India, you cannot conceive. In Hindu concept you cannot conceive.

Q:* OF WHAT? -- SUICIDE. THOUGH NOT ALL WHAT HAPPENS THERE WAS SUICIDE.

A:* Jonestown -- Jonestown you cannot conceive under Hindu or Buddhist or Jaina or Tao traditions -- impossible, for the simple reason that Krishna, who is the God of the Hindus is a lover of life. He has sixteen thousand wives. Do you think such a man will...?

Q:* COMMIT SUICIDE? YES, FRANKLY.

A:* No! Suicide is committed by people who have only one wife. Having sixteen thousand wives, one is already living in paradise! What more you can want?

Q:* I USED THE JONESTOWN THING JUST AS AN EXAMPLE OF, OF THE ISSUE OF THE SIMILARITIES TO WHICH I WOULD LIKE TO RETURN....

A:* There are no similarities.

Q:* I DON'T SEEK TO DRAW A CONCLUSION OF A SIMILAR END.... WHAT I'VE SEEN IS REMARKABLE SIMILARITY IN TECHNIQUE.

A:* Just tell me what.

Q:* IN THE TECHNIQUE OF ATTRACTING, WORKING WITH PEOPLE.

A:* What technique?

Q:* THE TECHNIQUES OF MEDITATION -- NOT PRECISELY THE SAME (TAPE INAUDIBLE) A:* Reverend Jim Jones.... Or even Jesus, has never heard what meditation is.

They knew only prayer and prayer is not meditation.

You are finding difficulty now to... show the similarities. Meditation you mentioned, which cannot exist in Jonestown.

Q:* THE CONTROL OF INFORMATION.

A:* No. There is no control.

There is no control about anything. People are absolutely free to be here or not to be here.

I DON'T SEEK A TRICK HERE AND I DON'T SEEK A FALSE COMPARISON, SO....

A:* No. I understand. I understand your intention. Just see one thing: in Jonestown, the major following was Black people, in this place the major following is White people. In Jonestown the people were all illiterate, uneducated... except for few. Here everybody is educated, most of them are graduates of universities, most of them has Masters' degrees, few have Ph.D.'s, few are D.Litt's. Not even few are uneducated. The uneducated, the illiterate, the poor, the Black -- these are the people who are very gullible, these are the people who are victims of all kinds of systems of belief.

Q:* A STREET BLACK WOULD TELL YOU THAT THAT'S NONSENSE, THAT HE'S HARD TO CON, SO WHAT WOULD YOUR REACTION BE?

A:* They were just here for three month, to share homes with us. They were not going to be part of the commune and we were not interested in transforming them. Just whenever we have surplus money, and our people are so productive all around the world, that whenever we have some surplus money, we would like to share it with different groups. That was just the our first experiment to share it with the street people and to give them the same dignity as any other human being needs: give them the same love, the same equality, the same

clothes, the same food, the same air-conditioned housing -- a taste of what they are missing on the streets.

Never again we are going to invite them, because we have other projects, far more dangerous. In the next month we are going to have another project which is going to shake the whole America.

Q:* I TAKE IT FROM THE FACT YOU DIDN'T VOLUNTEER TO TELL ME WHAT IS, THERE'S NO POINT IN ASKING.

A:* There is no point in asking, because I would like to keep people in curiosity, suspense.

Q:* A SANNYASIN ONCE TOLD ME DURING THE PERIOD OF YOUR SILENCE THAT YOU WOULD BEGIN TO SPEAK AGAIN WHEN AN ECONOMIC NEED AROSE.

A:* That's wrong. We have never faced any economic need, otherwise my Rolls Royces will not be go on growing. One has come just now, one is coming within the next week, and one I am informed, my people are specially making: an old model of Rolls Royce, Phantom.

It is going to cost four-hundred-thousand dollars. Ordinary Rolls Royce costs only one hundred thousand dollars; it will take one and half year to be made, but it will be the most unique Rolls Royce in the whole world. So we are not out of economy. There is no question, for me to speak because my commune was not going well.

My commune is going so well that nothing else in the whole world is going so well! Five thousand people are here. They all have the best standard of food, the best housing, the whole commune is centrally air-conditioned, they have hundreds of cars, hundreds of busses, they have five planes, and we are not expanding, because the legality of the city is under litigation, so they have prevented us to expand. Otherwise I was going to bring one hundred thousand sannyasins here and I will bring. The litigation we are going to win.

In a democratic country nobody can defeat me.

Q:* WHERE COULD A MAN LIKE YOU BE DEFEATED?

A:* Only in the Soviet Union, never, no other place. They are afraid in Soviet Union. Already my books are banned. I have sannyasins underground in Soviet Union, they are being persecuted, already, but because of the government persecution, there is great excitement to become sannyasins. For the first time, against communism, there is a new movement. And the new generation needs something new. Communism is already out of date. Marx's books, who reads?

No communist, nobody bothers -- it is just old testament. So that is the only place

where I may be defeated, but not in America. If I am defeated in America then America is not different from Soviet Union; then it is a bogus democracy, hypocrite.

Q:* DO YOU SAY THAT IN CONFIDENCE OF YOUR BEING ABLE TO PLAY THE GAME OF DEMOCRACY BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE...

A:* Certainly.

Q:*... SO THAT IF YOU CAN'T WIN THEN THE GAME IS WRONG?

A:* I know the constitution of America and I am going to stand for it against the Americans, because the American government, the state governments are all violating the basic rights given to human beings in the constitution.

I can play the game. I can play the game in Soviet Union also, if the need arises, because I don't think anybody has read communist literature more than I have read. I can play the game, but first I have to try America.

Q:* WHY ARE THERE SO MANY PEOPLE WHO STUDIED PSYCHOLOGY AND PSYCHIATRY HERE?

A:* This reason is clear: psychology is the latest development of intelligence, the latest science. And they can understand me more than anybody else. They are the most intelligent people.

Q:* CAN THEY TEACH BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE?

A:* That is not certain. To be a psychologist is one thing; to be a teacher is totally different art.

We have so many psychologists here that many Ph.D.'s are farming, many Ph.D.'s are creating dams, many Ph.D.'s are looking after my peacocks.... Few perhaps are functioning as psychologists, psychiatrists, in the medical center. If somebody needs any help, if somebody is schizophrenic....

Q:* WHAT ABOUT IN THE MEDITATION COURSES AND IN THE UNIVERSITY?

A:* Meditation is beyond psychology. It is not psychology. It has nothing to do with brain, it has nothing to do with the mind either. It is a state of no-mind.

Even Sigmund Freud and Carl Gustav Jung and Alfred Adler, had no idea of meditation, what it is. They all thought in terms of concentration. Concentration has nothing to do with meditation. Concentration is a method of the mind and meditation is a way how to transcend the mind, how to go above the mind -- so

you are on the top of the hills and all your thoughts are just in the valley -- and you can watch them and you can have a bird's eye view of what kind of mind you have.

These are three things: the state of no-mind which is your being, the mind which is what the society has conditioned you for, the third -- the brain -- which you have brought into the world with the body. The most bogus is the mind. The brain is a reality. The no-mind is a reality. The mind is only a program: Hindu mind, Mohammedan mind, communist mind -- the mind has to be labeled, because it is a program. And meditation is a deprogramming. It is going beyond the mind. Nobody can deprogram a meditation man -- impossible. There is no way. He has nothing.

I am available: I give the challenge to any psychiatrist in the whole world if he can deprogram me. Just he has to be alerted that by deprogramming me, he may get deprogrammed!

Q:* I SEE THIS BUSINESS OF COMPETITION FOR THE THOUGHTS OF MAN AND FOR THE INDOCTRINATION PROCEDURES THAT ARE GOING ON ALL OVER THE WORLD. IT HAPPENS IN ADVERTISING, IT HAPPENS IN THE MILITARY, IT HAPPENS IN CHURCHES, BUT IT SEEMS TO HAVE BECOME MORE SOPHISTICATED.... THERE SEEMS TO BE A LEVEL OF IT THAT'S ALMOST FRANCHISABLE.

A:* No. No indoctrination happens here -- sophisticated or unsophisticated -- because if you look at my books you will find thousands of contradictions in them. Talking to me is just a beautiful game, with words. I am not trying to preach a certain doctrine, otherwise I will be consistent. I will repeat the same thing.

I have never repeated anything. And I have contradicted myself every day and I tell to my people never bring yesterday what I said. You ask directly right now whatever is your question, but don't bring that, "Bhagwan, you said ten years before this and now you are saying this...." I have never read my books, and I don't remember ten years back. And why should I remember unnecessary luggage on my head?

I am available, more alert, more aware, than I was ten years before.

Q:* DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD?

A:* No. That indoctrination is going on all over the place, except my communes.

Q:* WHERE DO YOU SEE THAT LEADING, YOUR COMMUNE QUITE ASIDE, JUST AS AN OBSERVATION?

A:* Everywhere. The pope is doing, Mother Teresa the terrible is doing.... That woman is terrible!

Q:* THIS RULED MY QUEST: TO MAKE FOLKS SEE THINGS HOW WHATEVER PARTICULAR LEADER SEES THEM. IT JUST SEEMS TO ME TO BE HEATING UP AND HEADING SOME PLACE THAT MAKES ME UNCOMFORTABLE IN THE WORLD AT LARGE.

A:* It is happening there and the politicians are leading the world to a nuclear war, because they go on piling up nuclear weapons inspite of all their speeches about peace, love, friendship, coexistence -- but they all are piling up nuclear weapons.

In fact it seems to be a little crazy: already they have so much nuclear weapons, they can destroy this planet for seven hundred times. Now there is no need.

There is no way for life to escape; they have already seven hundred times more than it is needed. But they are heading out of fear of each other.

The religious leaders are continuously trying to convert, particularly Christianity which is the biggest religion in the world, is trying to convert the poor people very easily. Because those poor people need food, those people need medicine, they need houses, they need jobs, and Christianity can provide them few things.

And their own religion cannot do anything else but prayer to a God who does not exist.

So Christianity is trying to convert people more and more into the church, because it is also a political game -- politics of numbers.

Politicians and priests have been in a certain conspiracy always. The conspiracy is that they both need wars, they both need poverty, they both need people in suffering, misery, orphans, widows, sick people -- they both need all these people. Without these people Adolf Hitler has a statement in his biography that, "Only in a wartime you can become a great hero," and that is true: all your heroes are wartime heroes. You don't know anything about, not a single peacetime hero.

Politicians, if they want to achieve their ambition -- and they are ambitious people, otherwise why they should be in politics? Their ambition can be fulfilled only in war. The trouble is that the third world war is going to destroy all, so both parties are waiting and trying to find out ways how to prevent nuclear weapons or sabotage them.

Once either America or Soviet Union finds a method, that can nullify nuclear weapons, the war will be immediately on. It will be postponed till that moment, and that moment cannot be very long -- both the sides are continuously working how to find something as an antidote for nuclear weapons. Right now they don't have any antidote. Till they don't have the antidote, you can remain assured there is not going to be war. But soon they may find. There is not much problem in it. If they can find nuclear weapons, they can find something which negates nuclear weapons.

And the religious leaders are trying to convert the poor countries, the poor people -- that is also the program of the capitalist countries. Against communism.

America don't have a philosophy to argue. Against communism, America needs Christianity to argue. You cannot convert Indians into Americans, obviously.

You cannot convert Japanese into Americans, obviously. But you can convert them into Christianity. So Christianity is serving the capitalist politicians and is spreading Christianity all over the world.

And these Christians, their leaders, are against abortion, because if there is abortion.... The religious leaders are against abortion.

Q:* NOT ALL OF THEM.

A:* All.

Q:* EVEN THE ONES WHO SAY THEY'RE NOT?

A:* Everyone is against abortion -- religious leaders. The Hindu religious leaders, the Buddhist religious leaders, the Christian, the Jews -- they are all against abortion, against birth control methods, against the pill for they all want more numbers. Number is their strength.

Q:* YOU PAINT SUCH AN UTTERLY DARK PICTURE.... YOU PAINT SUCH A PICTURE OF THE TOTALITY OF SELFISHNESS OF EVERYONE OUTSIDE HERE.

A:* It is true. It is true. I am neither....

I am not a pessimist, I am not an optimist either. I am just a realist. So if it is night I cannot say it is day. And I am not painting it dark; it is dark.... Absolutely dark.

Q:* THIS IS THE ARK?

A:* This is Noah's ark. This is where we are trying to pull the intelligent youth, so they can be saved from AIDS -- outside world will not be capable to save people from AIDS. They may be able to postpone the third world war, but who is going to postpone AIDS.

Q:* HOW WILL YOU ACCOMPLISH THAT HERE?

A:* Only we can do it.

We are already doing it. Every sannyasin is going through tests, and if somebody is found to have AIDS, he is not condemned; he is a victim of all old religions.

We love him, we have made a beautiful place. Two persons we have found who have AIDS -- we have made a beautiful place, the most scenic for them, because their life is now short, and we are supplying them everything that they ever

wanted. And we are going to create that place bigger -- if more AIDS people come to the commune, we will put them there with all medical facilities -- but AIDS cannot be in any way cured. All that can be done is those people can be prevented from spreading it, and that you cannot do in the outside world -- it is impossible.

Q:* YOU'RE SAYING IT HAS TO BE A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT?

A:* Yes. It has to be a certain commune where people love each other, respect each other. Even the person who has AIDS does not feel condemned. In the outside world the people who have AIDS are trying to hide it, otherwise the whole society will be turning their backs on them.

Q:* I KEEP HAVING DIFFICULTY... IT'S THE TOTALITY WITH WHICH YOU CONDEMN US.... Q:* I'VE BEEN TO AIDS HOSPICES, I'VE SEEN THE TREMENDOUS CARE, THAT DECENT GIVING HUMAN BEINGS PRESENT TO MEN WHO WERE DYING. I'VE SEEN PEOPLE OF RELIGION WHO YOU CONDEMN BEING GENEROUS AND GOOD AND OPERATING FROM POINTS OF CONSCIENCE.

A:* It is just your prejudice that has given you all these ideas. For example, if you look at mother Teresa from your attitude.... I am just taking an example, because I know her and her work....

Anybody who sees her work will appreciate it -- she is doing a great service to humanity: saving the orphans. But the real purpose of saving the orphans is converting them to Catholicism. All those orphans are being adopted by Catholic families. One American Protestant family went there. They were not aware that they will be refused. They were asked, "Are you Christians?" They said, "Yes." So they were taken in and the receptionist informed that, "There are seven hundred orphans -- you can choose -- but first you fill the register to what religion you belong," and then they wrote, "Protestant." And the clerk said, "Wait. Let me first inquire," and out he comes back and says that, "We don't have any orphans right now." A minute before there were seven hundred orphans.

This man wrote a letter to all biggest Indian newspapers. I condemned on that letter mother Teresa. She wrote a letter to me. I had told her that this is absolutely ugly; you are trying to convert orphans into Catholicism, your concern is not the orphan. Your concern: one more Catholic.

Secondly, you are against abortion, you are against birth control, because if there is birth control and abortion, where you are going to get orphans -- the whole supply of orphans. So on the outside it is white house, inside it is all black. @D She wrote to me that, "I will be praying to God on your behalf, that he should forgive you." Nobody can say that something is wrong in it, but I know everything is wrong in that sentence. I wrote her back that there is no God, so

don't try to befool me. Secondly, who are you to pray on my behalf without my permission? You are interfering into my life, without my permission -- this is trespass.

So the sentence looks beautiful, but when you dissect it, what she is saying that I am wrong, so wrong that I will be punished by God, and she is right and she is praying for me -- what great generosity.

Q:* I CAN'T, I CAN'T SEE THINGS IN THAT BLACK AND WHITE. LIKE YOUR STORIES ABOUT MOTHER TERESA -- I KNOW NOTHING. BUT I DO KNOW THEY'RE DECENT PEOPLE OUT THERE.

A:* You have to look more deeply into these generous people. These are the people who have kept humanity poor.

Q:* YOU ARE TREATING TWO PEOPLE WHO HAVE AIDS; I HAVE SEEN THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING CARE OF THEM...

A:* They are not serving, they are not servants of the people, they are not serving the poor. Service is not a respected word here.

They are simply sharing their love. And in sharing it is totally different. You give your love to those people who have very little time to live... and without any greed. All the religions in the world are serving the poor with a certain motivation that if they serve the poor they will reach to the kingdom of God.

My people have no greed, no motive; there is no God and no paradise.

Q:* HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THESE PEOPLE I SAW WORKING.... WON'T GET IT?

A:* They enjoying it, they are just enjoying it. I have made everything here a celebration, and that is my religion: celebration. And we don't bother about anything else. If those two people are sick, it is part of our celebration to share our energy with them and prevent the disease spreading to other people. And we can do it perfectly. In the outside world, I know there are Senators in your parliament who have AIDS. But these people can hide it -- they are powerful enough -- they can hide it. And the person who has AIDS knows that he is going to die within two years time: he will make as many sexual contacts as possible.

Q:* ARE YOU SUGGESTING THAT I WOULD GO OUT KNOWINGLY CONTAMINATE PEOPLE IF I KNEW I HAD AIDS A:* No, no. It is not a question of knowingly contaminating. The question is a man who knows that he's going to die. His immediate reaction will be how much

he can live in these two years or six months time. He has to live with speed, with intensity, that he had never done before....

So this man is going to have as many sexual contacts as possible. Not that he is trying to contaminate anybody; he is just the flame which is going out.

In the outside world it is happening.

Soon you will see.

Q:* WELL, IT'S HARD TO BELIEVE.

A:* The question is: you can be contaminated even by kissing and you may not know, because it is not only sexual intercourse that you get, get the AIDS.

Q:* THERE IS A THEORY ABOUT THAT.

A:* Yes. You can be just kissed by a friend and you may get it. And without knowing it, you may contaminate other people. It is a wildfire. And now there are few experts who are saying that there is a possibility to contaminate even by breathing -- then it becomes absolutely impossible. But in my commune, we will try to prevent that too. Everybody, all the sannyasins can use the doctors' mask.

You will not be able to do that in the outside world. That's what I am trying to make the difference; the difference is here we are living together, caring about each other, loving each other. Outside world, you have your family, a small circle friends, but the outside world is big, and it is beyond control.

All the states and all the governments are trying to repress the information about people who have AIDS. For the simple reason, because it is such a condemnation. And if you repress the information, you are a criminal. For example, in Oregon, they have made the test for AIDS so difficult that almost ninety percent people who are suffering from AIDS will not be caught into it.

This is what my medical people have informed me, that the test they are doing is such that ninety percent will be cleared out.

Q:* I'D LIKE TO TALK WITH THEM ABOUT THAT.

A:* Yes, you should talk with them. And these ninety percent people who are given a clear certificate will not be contaminating anybody knowingly, but they will be contaminating all the same. Knowledge is not needed to contaminate anybody.

The outside world is crushed between nuclear weapons and AIDS. Perhaps nuclear weapons may be avoided, for the simple reason if we cannot find an antidote, the nuclear weapons cannot be used, but AIDS is unavoidable. Unless the world turns into small communes, and people start going on their own accord to be examined, and every commune manages for those people special places to live and supplies their demands -- I don't think the outside world is going to do that.

Thirty million people in America are almost in Ethiopia....

And America cannot do anything for thirty million poor people in America itself, but it goes on making more nuclear weapons. You have these mad people in power to be removed immediately. A great concern should be created in the outside world that these people are mad -- when your people are dying, even in India -- fifty percent people are on the line any moment they will be dying like Ethiopia: one thousand people per day. And the prime minister of India is selling wheat to outside countries, exporting wheat, because he wants nuclear plant and for that money is needed. Now these people should be behind bars.

Rajiv Gandhi is one of my friends... but still I say he should be imprisoned immediately, because what he is doing is criminal. People are dying and you are preparing for more death.... Strange. And you call that they are generous -- the pope is generous and goes on continuously telling, "No abortion, no birth control, no pill -- these are all immoral," and to go on creating more children is moral.

Q:* THANK YOU.

A:* Although your questions have remained -- I'm worried about your questions.

The Last Testament, Vol 1